Skip to comments.Note to Herman Cain: Please be a little more flexible with 9-9-9
Posted on 10/13/2011 1:45:32 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
In the recent Bloomberg/Washington Post Republican presidential debate the moderators wanted the candidates to get specific regarding their economic/jobs plans.
That's sort of amusing considering that the level of specificity we got from Obama in 2008 was "hope" and "change you can believe in." It turns out that we didn't get much hope, but Obama kept his promise to "fundamentally transform the United States of America.
With his 9-9-9 plan Herman Cain might be getting a little too specific. Actually, it's not the specificity; it's the rigidity that Cain has been displaying which will eventually hurt him.
I think Cain would do well to present his general concept of abolishing the current tax system while remaining flexible as to the details of a fair, non-progressive (equal protection of the laws) tax system.
Rick Santorum pointed out the potential Achilles' heel of Cain's plan: once a federal sales tax is implemented, good luck ending it or lowering the rates in the future. Indeed, the rates will only increase over the years. (Cain's plan: 9% business flat tax; 9% individual flat tax; 9% national sales tax.)
As an experienced congressman, Santorum made the valid point that it may not be wise to give Congress a new tool to increase tax revenue. Remember, originally the income tax was supposed to be a temporary measure.
Cain's response: as president he would veto any law increasing the percentage rates. Well, that won't help much after Cain leaves office. In the future we could have high income tax rates and a national sales tax.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanthinker.com ...
There are a number of ways to accomplish a truly fair system.
One way would be just a flat tax by which everyone would pay the same percentage regardless of income amount.
If the percentage were 10 percent someone who earns $1,000 per year would pay $100 in federal income tax. Someone who earns $100,000 would pay $10,000. And someone who earns one-million dollars would pay $100,000.
Almost any system would be better than the current system which discriminates and applies the law unequally among citizens. The current progressive system is based on the core principles of Marxist theory, plain and simple. With the "rich" being targeted to "pay their fair share" while approximately half of wage earners pay no income tax.
IOW, a very important debate regarding the tax code has been started and Cain is on the right track, all Cain needs to do is be a little less specific and detailed and more flexible to proposed changes.
I like the flat tax. I like Herman Cain. I hope he modifies his tax plan.
9-9-9 is the worst idea I have heard proposed by any of our front runners. The last thing we need in in this economy is a national sales tax. The last thing the government needs is a new revenue stream. 9-9-9 is LAME.
If you will go to the site on the 999 plan, what you describe is step 2. He is basically saying this is a better system, but we cannot get there all at once.
NO national sales tax. Today it’s 9%, tomorrow it’ll be 19% - unless you have an EBT card - then it’s ZERO.
I would still rather we go straight to a flat tax and not go with the sales tax.
I’d be VERY happy with the Fair Tax, but not without a constitutional amendment.
That said, I still like Cain and the last thing I’d expect him to do is put up a plan like 9-9-9 and then get wishy-washy on it before any legislation had even been written.
Actually, he can’t walk it back. He has wrapped himself in the 9-9-9 plan. He is now Mr 9-9-9.
The 9-9-9 plan is Herman Cain and vice-versa.
I am sorry but I am not a fan of Herman Cain. The 999 thing is “too clever by half” It reduces an important issue to a marketing ploy, and one that really doesn’t stand up under scrutiny.
Even with Newt Gingrich’s baggage and association with the past, he is by far the best candidate to bring our country back. If anyone truly knows how Washington works it’s Gingrich.
Gingrich plays chess while the other candidates are playing checkers. He may be a bit “old school” but I am getting nostalgic for a bit of that.
Well I guess I better vote for Perry then, huh?/s
The Federal Government has ALWAYS had and used a sales tax. In the constitution it is called a “excise tax”. Today it is applied to alcohol, transportation fuels, tobacco products, vaccines, land-line telephone usage, firearms and ammo and other products and services.
Nothing stops it from being expanded to other products by the legislature.
The federal excise taxes are not added to the bill, they are incorporated in the sales price, but AFAIK, nothing in the Constitution’s definition of taxes stops them from being tallied at the point-of-sale as a separate item, just like the state sales taxes are.
I think there are some positive ways to tweak his plan, it’d doesn’t have to be the 9, per se. The Cain haters though, will then start screaming that he is making it up as he goes along - they could care less if his plan is workable, they don’t want him in office.
Paul Ryan loves Herman Cains 9-9-9 tax plan
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What do these numbers mean for me?
Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 Plan: Issue #1 Addressed
After he's in the white house, he will likely entertain fresh bold ideas on taxes...
I listen to Boortz about 3x a week. I like him. When I heard him refer to himself as “The High Priest of the Church of the Painful Truth” I about drove my pickup off the road laughing. I called my mom and asked her who that title reminded her of. She replied; “That’s your Dad!”
I believe that Herman can win this thing, and with a braintrust like Boortz advising him, the sky is the limit.
I do know this. The only way to avoid the coming train wreck is a tax system where *everybody* pays some federal income tax. We simply can’t have 47% of the people with a vested interest in government taxing and spending as much as possible because they’re getting a free ride. Do you not agree?
You think the prospect of 9-9-9 becoming 20-20-20 is frightening? Within a few years, the 47% who now pay no fed income tax will become 51%, and then it is all over for the rest of us. We working suckers will be forever outnumbered at the ballot box, and the tyrannical, free-loading majority will be voting for and insisting on higher and higher taxes and more and more spending.
Are you old enough to remember a top marginal federal income tax rate of 90%? Well, it’ll be back. You think capital gains taxes under this scenario wouldn’t go to 50% or more? Or how about a corporate tax of 50% or more.
If you love the current tax code so much, then embrace this nightmare scenario I’ve just laid out for you, because it’s only just a few short years away.
A National Sales Tax in addition to existing Fed fees....You don’t think they’re going to cancel those, do you?? And I’m 67 on a very low fixed income and I’m still working part time...And I’m going to pay this Fed sales tax with what??
Young Caine: You cannot see.
Master Po: You think I cannot see?
Young Caine: Of all things, to live in darkness must be worst.
Master Po: Fear is the only darkness.
Master Po: [after easily defeating the boy in combat] Ha, ha, never assume because a man has no eyes he cannot see. Close your eyes. What do you hear?
Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.
Master Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?
Young Caine: No.
Master Po: Do you hear the grasshopper that is at your feet?
Young Caine: [looking down and seeing the insect] Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?
Perry and his amnesty, would make that 51% in 24 months, conservatives would never win another election.
People need to calm down a bit. Mr. Cain has said that his plan is a transitional plan to the Fair Tax, which he has supported for years.
He will have to include: generous personal exemptions, exclusion of social security income (since retirees pay no payroll tax as an offset), and include a balanced budget amendment or cap to fed spending amendment.
Young Caine: [looking down and seeing the insect] Master, why do you call me grasshopper?
Master Po: Because you are ugly like insect.
9-9-9 is more branding and advertising than anything else, notice who’s leading the poles... a man who had to turn businesses around. He used smart branding and slick advertising to get people back to the company’s product. He’s no dummy, once in the white house he would have to get both houses of congress to go along with his plan and that won’t happen without some compromise.
The 9-9-9 plan has only one deduction and this is for charitable donations. That’s a great idea and should be kept in any flat tax plan
That big fat phony Warren Buffet donates most of his earnings to the Bill Gates Foundation because he like what they do with his money better than what the Federal parasites + Obama will do if he declared it as income and was taxed on it.
the last thing we need in this economy is a tax that targets and, therefore, decreases, the consumption of goods. That will not create jobs, it will only exacerbate the underlying problems within this failing economy. It doesn’t help anybody except the federal government. It’s a terrible idea and I can’t imagine why any conservative would be defending it.
With his 9-9-9 plan Herman Cain might be getting a little too specific. Actually, it’s not the specificity; it’s the rigidity that Cain has been displaying which will eventually hurt him.
If Cain were to give spongy answers (e.g., we could look at not taxing food, we could look at giving rebates, etc.), then people wouold complain that the numbers don’t add up, and they would be right.
Learn from history. Since the inception of the income tax, Congress has never been able to increase revenue above 20% of GDP. whenever they attemted to raise revenues by raising rates, the markets adapted and revenues remained relatively flat as percentage of GDP. 10-10-10 would net 20% of GDP. I would accept that coming out of the gate. I do not believe Congress can devise any plan that will net more than 20% of GDP, never have and never will.
I agree the the 9-9-9 plan is a terrible idea for the simple fact that it introduces a National Sales Tax before eliminating the Income Tax. If we allow that to happen we will forever be saddles with both taxes and I can damn well guarntee you that they be at 9% for long! I think the idea of a National Sales Tax is laudable but only after the income tax is abolished and the 16th amendment is repealed.
I agree the the 9-9-9 plan is a terrible idea for the simple fact that it introduces a National Sales Tax before eliminating the Income Tax. If we allow that to happen we will forever be saddled with both taxes and I can damn well guarantee you that they will not be at 9% for long! I think the idea of a National Sales Tax is laudable but only after the income tax is abolished and the 16th amendment is repealed.
I propose that the federal government reduce its spending to match it's revenue stream. That is what I and we have been proposing for years. I have certainly never heard the tea party screaming for a new federal Tax on everything.
Herman Cain is proposing a transition to a flat tax where everyone pays and Congress can't manipulate the system behind the scenes like they do now.
he's also proposing a 9% sales tax increase. I already pay a 7% sales tax. I got news,as a middle class type person, I pay more than my fair share of taxes to the government via sales taxes, FICA taxes, medicare taxes, gas taxes, liquor taxes, income taxes, property taxes, etc. I'm not going to support a candidate that expects me to pay more. Herman Cain does not have my vote. no way.
What does it tell us about conservatism — both conservatism in general and conservatism as it is embraced by those who post here on FR — that only back in 1992 George H.W. Bush could be “fired” for braking his “read my lips, no new taxes” pledge.... to a new, national tax of almost 10% imposed on EVERYTHING?
A 9% national sales tax is a loser. If Obama and the ‘rats had proposed this, there would be universal howls here.
But let “our black guy” proffer it, and..... ???
From the party of “no new taxes” to “we’ll sock it to ya on EVERYTHING”.
Yup. That’s progress for ya....
That's an intelligent response.
***Cain is on the right track, all Cain needs to do is be a little less specific and detailed***
That is a fair statement. In order to reach the uneducated masses who elected the other One based on a few catchy phrases; Cain will have to devise a postcard chart they can comprehend.
His plan passes muster with those who are on the same intellectual plane as Cain - but it must be understandable to the masses.
Heck - even here on FR there are people who can’t or won’t read the literature/formula.
You have it exactly backwards.
One of the biggest factors contributing to our economic downfall has been our abysmal savings rate over the last 25 years and over-appetite for consumption paid for with borrowing (both private and government borrowing).
People spent with no thought of the future, and with little thought of whether they could handle the debt in case of a downturn. The mindset is consume now, because in any event the government will support me and my children and provide me food and healthcare.
Because our tax code and regulations favor foreign producers over domestic producers of goods, this consumption binge has pushed manufacturing of goods overseas, with the result that every year we have trade deficits of hundreds of billions of dollars.
This has resulted in the hard-earned accumulated wealth of previous generations who worked hard and saved being pissed away by the present generation.
This has been going on for some time, but was masked by the easy monetary policy and the rising home values of the housing bubble.
Reducing taxes on production and investment and placing domestic goods on a more equal footing with foreign goods by a sales tax will finally change the incentives in favor of domestic production of goods (AND THEREFORE DECENT DOMESTIC JOBS!!) and domestic capital formation, and ease the coming burden on how to pay for pensions and healthcare for the retiring baby boomers.
Without something that changes the fundamental incentives such as Cain's plan IT IS A CERTAINTY that our standard of living and national power will fall to a second tier country and if we continue our open borders policy, to a third tier country.
I agree...there will need to be flexibility.
Bill Bennett mentioned this morning that he’d like to have Paul Ryan look at it and discuss it on his show, Bret Baier just mentioned that Art Laffer is going to be his 6 p.m. news show to discuss. Let’s let some other (experts) take a look at it and tell us what will work..and what needs work.
He still holds the top card, EVERYONE is talking about 999. Has anyone (media, columnists, etc.)looked at Romney’s yet and agreed or disagreed with it? I haven’t seen it if so. And that means Herman has the jump on them..simplicity. The guy knows his marketing stuff. Among many other things :-)
“I think the idea of a National Sales Tax is laudable but only after the income tax is abolished and the 16th amendment is repealed.”
Exactly how many previous amendments to the United States Constitution have been repealed?
How long did getting that repeal take?
Anyone — you, or anyone else in this forum — who really believes that the 16th Amendment is going to be repealed is living and dreaming in a fantasy land.
Even if Republicans retake the Senate in 2012 (fairly good chance of that), they are NOT going to get a 2/3’s majority.
And those ‘rats who are left will DIE before voting for such an amendment.
It ain’t happenin’....
no, I have it exactly right. a tax increase on consumption will trigger a decrease in actual consumption which will decrease production which will increase unemployment and; thereby, fuel the downward economic spiral that we are caught in. Cain's plan, by adding 9% to the cost of every purchase, has the distinction of exacerbating both inflationary and deflationary pressures which makes it the worst plan I have ever heard. The solution is simple, CUT SPENDING!
how about 9-9-9-9 which includes 9% tariffs
That is economic insanity. It is economic suicide.
Continuing to blow air into the bubble of hyper-consumption only feeds the Chinese economy and impoverishes us as a nation.
Cain’s plan doesn’t just add 9% to the cost of every purchase. The 9% is offset by lowering the prevailing prices of all domestically-produced goods by eliminating a large portion of the embedded taxes in the current prices of domestic goods.
And both domestic goods and imported goods would be subject to the 9% tax, leveling the playing field whereas as it is now we collect higher taxes from only domestic producers through high corporate income taxes. So domestic prices come down, imported prices stay the same and both are subject to the same sales tax.
This will help reverse the madness that is our trade imbalance and create decent manufacturing jobs in the United States.
Your type of mindset produces jobs only in China and condemns our grandchildren to poverty.
Of course we need to cut government spending, all conservatives agree on that. But we will still have $17 trillion of government debt when Zero is kicked out.
We desperately need to raise our savings rate and encourage domestic capital formation.
Our flexibility to implement tariffs is shackled by a web of treaties and MFN status for China and other countries
We can drop out of WTO and NAFTA at any time. No treaty is forever. I would love it if we became a country with less trade. We can do most of it at home. Our only true addiction is to Asian electronics. We should drop out and reverse engineer their shit. The present level of tech development is good enough for me.
China should not sell us anything for 10 years. We have a huge backlog of “stuff”. I see it at flea markets and garage sales. We can repair the stuff we have and this will provide zillions of jobs
I understand since I'm in the same boat (except the liquor tax). Cain wants to remove most of those taxes you referenced. No more FICA tax, no more Medicare tax, no more gas taxes. He wants to replace it with a sales tax and income tax that everyone pays, not just some of us. And the elimination of the all the crony deals and reduction of the corporate and capital gains taxes would allow the free market to drive down prices far more than the 9% added sales tax. The progressive income tax we have now is an tool of redistribution. Cain's plan needs work and can't pass the way it's written. But it's far better than what we have. Gingrich has proposed a 15% flat tax. The countries that have gone to a flat tax have had amazing economic growth. Anyway, thanks for answering me. I appreciate the discussion.
With all this focus on Cain’s 999 plan, why isn’t anyone asking Romney for the details of his plan? He’s been getting a pass on this, IMHO.
9-9-9 is a double edged sword because when the libs get in power they will have a new tax to rob people with. A national sales tax. Under an Obama type president he would agitate to make “fairness” adjustments such as decreasing the sales tax part and jacking up the income tax 9 to 19 for the rich whoever they might be