Posted on 10/14/2011 11:09:02 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
“I can tell you straight up front that the US Government has a vested interest in securing Oil supplies in the Gulf of Guinea and will commit forces to protect these supplies should the need arise. I can also tell you that the US Government is committed to eliminating Al Qaeda activities in the Sahel region and has already assigned elements of the US military to assist local forces in doing so.
Your Government set up AFRICOM (US Africa Combatant Command) to (a) secure energy supplies in Africa (b) check the influence of Al Qaeda and (c) check the influence of China in Africa. In short, the USG is prepared /is preparing for a series of wars /entanglements in Africa.”
So you would rather have your country’s oil supplies in the hands of Muslim dictators or Al Qaeda? I don’t get what your main beef is. Do you support the US and Nato coming to ‘help’ Africa or not?
My main beef is that our current American potentate cannot be trusted to secure our country’s interests at home or abroad.
Trust me, Museveni has tried hard for the past 25 years to get rid of Alice Lakwena and Joseph Kony. Dictators may be many things, but they are not stupid. The first lesson in Dictatorship 101 is the monopoly of violence - Museveni understands that the LRA is a threat to his monopoly of violence.
Secondly, have you looked at a map? Uganda has zero strategic interests in intervening in Al Shabab / Somalia. They are your “guns for hire” (much like the South Koreans in Vietnam). Ugandan troops are in Somalia today because the USG bribed the Ugandan Government to commit to Somalian operations.
Ethiopia and Kenya have direct strategic interests in Somalia, but the Kenyans see intervention as being too risky. Meles Zenawi conned you into supporting an Ethiopian invasion of Somalia and quickly withdrew when it became too hot to handle. In desperation, the USG bribed the Ugandans, Burundians and Rwandans (who have no strategic interests in Somalia) to hold the line. They done that job to the best of their ability, now they demand payback.
I can imagine Museveni meeting the US ambassador in Kampala and telling him point blank that “if you don’t help us with the LRA, then we won’t help you with Somalia”. If the Ugandans pull out, the Nigerians aren’t going to pick up the slack (they have 5,000 troops in Darfur already), the South Africans won’t either and neither will the Ethiopians.
The alternatives are (a) declare war on Somalia and get over with it - ain’t going to happen after Iraq and Afghanistan or (b) meet Museveni’s demands. The second option is the least risky.
With all due respect, most of what you wrote is nonsense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Member since MArch 2011? Welcome to FR.
Now please delineate your claimed wisdom, why keep us in suspence "about what is going on in Africa"?... We have so few people here who know "what is going on in Africa." Enlighten us.
The surprising thing is that the average man on the street in Nairobi, Lagos or Cape Town is better informed about US Foreign Policy than the average American.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I certainly look forward to your contributions on these subjects in the future. There is a paucity of information in the area here on FR and as you say we are ill informed, largely becauses our US press sources are much to blame for this fact,the MSM avoids writing much about Mexico or Africa for example, or our governments surreptitious work in these areas.Much of what information there is comes from
Australia and Britain, with a smattering from African news sources which tend to be dedicated to only local issues in a way that makes it difficult to obtain the larger continental picture.
So what you might bring here is important and needed.Please do not forget that.
Your hatred of Obama makes it difficult for you to distinguish between pro-Kikuyu / anti-Luo propaganda and fact. You have unknowingly taken sides in one of Africa’s many tribal tensions without either considering context or both sides of the story.
I don’t know where to start from....
I appreciate your input here, and hope that you will tell us more. It is extremely difficult for Americans to understand what the dynamics are in these geographic areas, as the press does not report it, and Americans have generally been uninterested in an area in which they perceive no national interest.
With all of the other matter in which the US involves itself, the African nations are placed on a lower priority.
It is difficult to perceive this part of the world in terms different from the internal politics of the US. Although those political movements intersect with African politics, little is known about those details in the US.
In order for the US to be successful anywhere in the world, it must first have a true understanding of the area and the people.
It is also necessary to understand that, while the US has its own political concerns, they are not always identical to the political concerns in these African nations. They sometimes parallel each other, but there are always local differences that we must seek to understand.
I never said I have any beef with America in Africa. I was just pointing out to you that the last two administrations indirectly committed the American people to a series of future wars in Africa - and all of this was done without consultation.
Secondly, with increased exposure comes increased risk of entanglement in Africa’s many tribal conflicts - this wasn’t carefully considered.
Thirdly, the policy lacks a serious economic component. If you are checking the influence of China in Africa and you are not talking economics, you are not serious.
I do not hate Obama , BTW....LOL. I know what kind of political animal he truly is....a nationalist socialist by ideology and surreptitious activity. I aim to see his utter defeat.
But as far as Africa goes, I would encourage you to start a ping list, say “the Africa Ping List”. This can be done here by simply gathering the freeper names of those who wish to be pinged on any news you might wish to draw to our attention, after posting any given article.I would be your first subscriber.
I would be happy to consider contexts on both sides of any story, I do not take sides but know at least the side Obama seems to be on.Obama advized Odinga to have the Orange Party take to the streets in 2007, and thousands of Kenyans died as a result, one an Olympic athlete of world reknown, cut down by pangas.I love Kenya , Tanzania and Ethiopia, and their peoples, and have spent time in Addis Ababa, Mombassa, and Arusha.
And I want to know what you think Obama is doing.You would be doing us all a great service, which we all try to accomplish for each other on this site.
I come from a nation that was colonised by the British and if the British can be accused of anything they cannot be accused of (a) lack of curiosity about history, politics and geography and (b) underestimating the importance of public diplomacy.
The British Empire was successful, not because the British had overwhelming firepower, but because they took the time to understand the dynamics of local power structures, local culture and they spent time and energy explaining their mission to their colonial subjects.
(The entire Darfur was administered by a handful of young Oxbridge graduates).
You will be shocked at how few Britons were involved in colonial administration. You’d also be amazed at how much effort the British put into learning local languages like Hindi, Hausa, Swahili and Zulu. They spent time and effort building trust and understanding.
In contrast, Americans tend to believe that once you throw sufficient resources at a problem, then the problem can be solved and if a problem is not being solved it is because sufficient resources are yet to be dedicated to it. Having the most potent military in the World is not a substitute for a lack of curiosity. (Not knowing the difference between Shia and Sunni prior to your invasion of Iraq cost you big time).
In addition, America lacks strategic patience.
It is important that America changes its ways because (a) America is dealing with two very patient foes - China and the Islamists and (b) America is not as rich as it used to be so can’t merely wave your cheque book around (China now has an equally large cheque book).
There was serious election violence in Kenya in 2007 and that violence was driven by ethnic rivalry between the Luo and other ethnic groups (Odinga) against the Kikuyu (Kibaki).
Without boring you, please understand that neither Odinga nor Kibaki are angels. There is also credible evidence that Kibaki rigged the election - so where is the outrage against Kibaki and the Kikuyu?
Anyone who grew up in Africa will tell you that tribalism is an unfortunate fact of life and there are no “innocent” tribes. Many conservatives in the States have swallowed a lot of tribal tainted nonsense simply because they think it fits their narrative on Obama. It is nonsense, and it does the conservative movement no favours.
Thank you but your point is not an excuse , on the contrary, for Obama messing , for obscure personal interests , into those tribal wars...
Explain to us where is the US’ interest there.
I remind you that Obama happens to be ,shamefully, president of USA and that it matters for sane americans(conservatives)
I absolutely agree with you that Kibaki rigged the election, but the result is the cultural mitigation of “democracy” along tribal lines which results in peace and balance.Kenya had a long peaceful interlude due to this “undemocratic” mixture of vote and tribal culture.Because of this fact the Kenyan people enjoyed a long operiod of peace and relative prosperity compared to other African nations.
When into Kenyan politics someone from Chicago introduces a radical element of protest politics acccording to people like unconvicted Weathermen bombers Bill Ayers and Bernadette Dorn and liberationist theology of Rev. Ralph Wright, all Obama’s political mentors, what happens is a form of radical neo colonialism, which destroys the delicate tribal balances of which you speak.The result in Kenya was massacre.And I think Obama was distinctly wrong to do that, immoral in fact.
Kibaki may not be an angel, but the system over which he presides of balanced tribal politics and evolutionary democracy brings peace, and assured the continuing evolution of tribal politics towards a uniquely African form of genuine democratic rule.
Now Kenya has the Chicago radical form of rule, which is essentially nationalist socialist, dedicated to totalitarian government, esconced within Kenya’s government as a 5th column.I do not feel remiss in cheering for Kibaki, and often wonder what Jomo Kenyatta would think of what has happened to Uhuru in his precious country. I wonder if he would see Obama as a radical neo-colonialist as I do, imposing alien Chicago radical politics on a delicately balanced tribal traditional ( maybe conservative )political system.Instead of the British Raj to contend with, Kenyans now have the Radical Raj of Chicago, and all of his running dogs, among whom I count Odinga.
All of our problems are ignored unless they can be solved in the same time span as a half-hour television drama. We have no more patience than that, I am afraid. We certainly cannot fathom a problem, the solution of which starts with us and ends with our children or grandchildren. We are all about immediate gratification.
People have learned that it is possible to wait out the Americans, as they lose interest quickly. They can also avoid the confrontation with our military that way as well.
Unfortunately, there are no forces rising in power in the US who understand that the struggle for power can be planned to takes years or generations. The conservative forces counteracting those socialist and fascist tendencies are only lately waking up to that realization.
So, you see, we are an impatient people learning to be patient.
You "logic" is impressive, especially when one remembers that the nation that gave the World the "Mau Mau" needs no lessons in violence. I appreciate why many people don't like Obama (for his economic policies, philosophy etc), but when you start throwing around wild conspiracy theories that cannot be substantiated, you do a lot of harm to the Conservative movement.
You need to remember that the political situation in America is not necessarily representative of the political situation everywhere else in the World. (Hint: we are not re-fighting your sixties-era culture wars in Africa, our very bloody wars are being triggered by something else).
I used to think that the most gullible Americans were liberals, now conservatives are giving them a run for their money: Pat Robertson was conned by Mobutu and Charles Taylor, George Bush was conned by Ahmed Chalabi (who was two-timing with Iran), Karzai and Musharraf and the US Christian Right was conned by Gbagbo (who claimed to be a Christian in spite of his several wives and patronage of marabouts).
It is so easy for ambitious politicians ANYWHERE in the World to con Americans:
(1). Claim your opponents support a radical American figure on the left or right (depends on who you want to lobby - democrat or republican).
(2). Claim your opponent is an Islamist or supports Islamists - works like a charm every time. (Americans are either too lazy or too uninterested most of the time to do due diligence on your claims).
This is why we hear that Uganda (a nation with 85% Christian population and in which 32% of Ugandans born into Islam are now Christians - Pew Forum) is now in danger of turning into the latest outpost of a World wide Islamic Caliphate. That is why we hear that Kenya (a nation with 83% Christian population) is now turning to into an Islamic state.
If America doesn't update its knowledge of the wider World, it is very likely going to played for a VERY LONG time.
Heard of Uhuru Kenyatta? (Jomo's son - a Kikuyu). He was indicted by the ICC on five counts of crimes against humanity (committed during the 2007 Presidential election violence). He was a Kibaki supporter and if you could get him to tell the truth, he'd probably tell you that he learned violence from Daddy who had a lot to do with the Mau Mau.
Is there an actual country called Central Africa?
A Central African Republic exists.
I wish I didn’t know the answerr. Where will The One intervene militarily next? Long Beach, NY?
Well, if you start a African Ping list, please include me. I would be interested in trying to understand more. I have read through your posts and find them very interesting. This country throws too much money around this planet and usually gets no results...just like they throw money at problems in this country and we have little to show for it other than a bunch of brainwashed entitlement kids screaming on Wall Street that they want something that doesn’t belong to them.
For example,I remember thinking to myself that it probably wasn’t a good idea to try to stamp out the poppy industry in Afghanistan by burning fields, etc. because it was the only ‘industry’ the country seemed to have at the time. I could get behind a program to bring economic diversity to the region over a period of time, but to try to wipe out fields of the stuff over night...while we were there getting rid of the Taliban was mission creep and not important to our national security as far as I was concerned. It also seemed counter productive to wipe out a major industry in a country that barely has enough food to feed their people in the first place.
I am a big property rights and free enterprise conservative and have no patience for marxist ideology. I truly believe that most of this country’s problems can be laid directly at the feet of liberals and socialist thought.
I’ll do that.
The destruction of the poppy industry in Afghanistan was as badly conceived and executed as the “War on Drugs”. Somebody suggested that the US and its NATO allies would be better off buying off the entire crop and finding alternative uses for it (e.g. medical). You could have very easily bought the crop at twice the price offered by traffickers and saved yourselves a lot of hassle.
Great Post. I do not find expanding my awareness painful at all, unlike many people ( of course that was different when I was younger, LOL).
I do know that violence crosses all spectrums of political endeavour in many parts of Africa, and yes Uhuru Kenyatta’s hatefulness does not surprise me.But I still think that Obama is a neo colonialist who pokes himself into situations which prevent the natural evolution of truly indiginous democratic culture.
Some of our democratic traditions came from native Americans, for example, and in 1776, Americans had culturally evolved from being European, and it was this difference which propelled much of the independence movement back then.Its the same with tribal dynamics, I think,there needs to be space and intergenerational peace so that the social mechanisms of indiginous cultures of freedom can evolve together.Defining enemies continuously is not the natural state of mankind, IMHO.
As far as Obama goes, his problem is deeply rooted in a greater history and that of the social movement that has supported him.It is not a matter of dislike, but of the fact that his politics are nothing but abhorrent of traditional democratic freedoms.
This pretty much describes it:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html
I do not throw around wild conspiracy theories, what I do is look for evidence of activity and interpret it.I pay little attention to propaganda.You will notice that there are social movements now unhindered in Sudan, Libya, Somalia
and Egypt which will likely bring those nations under the totalitarian pall of Sharia law.So be it.But that does not bode well for future peace in our world, nor for peace in Africa in particular. With the proliferation of nuclear arms likely to come from Iran, it is fraught with a specific gravitas.One shudders to think that a man similar to Uhuru Kenyatta might one day be in charge of a nuclear arsenal, for example.
I agree with you that Americans tend to assume that similar dynamics on our domestic scene drive politics abroad, but that is because we often do not have at our disposal, access to sources abroad which present factual truth. This is especially true during the last 7 years or so. And it is forums like this one that mitigate that trend, and why your posts are appreciated.
Few believed me when I stated repeatedly here that the Bedou of Libya would never surrender to the current “freedom movement” of Libya, catalyzed by Obama’s defining Qadaffi as a world class enemy.(Who will it be next week? LOL.)I am afraid there will be violence from the desert in Libya for a very long time and the gates of the Sahara into deeper continental Africa will not go untested for those who wish they were.Nor do I see Qadaffi as purely evil either and perhaps his greatest sin was to attempt to bring Libya into the modern era too quickly.It was a prosperous country, and the former building boom of Tripoli is now a ruin, with rats skulking about through piles of rubble.Death and destruction is the legacy of Obama as a matter of fact, just as it was from the election riots in Kenya in 2007.
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