Obama sending combat troops to central Africa to aid fight against rebels

CNN ^ | October 14th, 2011 | CNN

[katiedidit1]

It doesn’t do a thing for America...will someone wake me up when this piece of crap is out of the whitehouse...

[darrellmaurina]

19 posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 1:20:21 PM by NavyCanDo: “The Lord’s Resistance Army are Christians who are fighting against the Muslims and corrupt regimes. They number about 500. Obama is sending troops to eradicate them according to this story.”

29 posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 1:37:15 PM by tenger: “Uh Folks, the Lord’s Resistance Army are not Christians. Look it up. Joseph Kony is its leader. The day someone takes him out is the day there will be cause for celebration in all of central Africa. Don’t disseminate wrong information.”

37 posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 1:44:14 PM by livius: “That’s not to support the LRA, incidentally; it is a vicious, violent cult run by a psychopathic “prophet” and while its “resistance” is mostly against Muslims, it also attacks Christians, although its “prophet” originally saw himself fighting against the Muslims. But I don’t think our military intervention is warranted.”

We in the conservative movement need to do some **SERIOUS** fact-checking on the Lord's Resistance Army and which side our President has chosen to support.

If NavyCanDo is correct in saying Rush Limbaugh didn't do his homework, we have a problem.

I'm not saying we should have gotten into this quagmire at all. I am far from convinced that this situation warrants American intervention. But now that we're in it, we need to take some hard looks at whether the LRA is, as the mainstream media are portraying it, a group of rapists and murders, or whether this is the President of the United States taking sides in a war that is perceived as being a religious war. The end result could be very damaging for the future of the United States since much of the world does think of military conflict in religious terms even if we aren't accustomed to thinking that way.

33 posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 1:40:13 PM by BuckeyeTexan: “I've never heard of a group of Christians raping, torturing, murdering, and enslaving children as means to establish peace on earth. The LRA doesn't sound like a group of Christians to me.”

43 posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 1:49:25 PM by LachlanMinnesota: “Kony gathers around himself superstitious animist, pagan and Christian illiterates who follow him, personally. He is not fighting Muslims any more than Christians or other religious beliefs. He has been creating havoc in the country for 20 years, and is a very bad soul. Don’t let people mislead you into thinking this guy is a Christian. He is not a crusader for anyone but himself.”

I am emphatically **NOT** defending the Lord's Resistance Army or its conduct. However, we're dealing with African rebels, not a disciplined European or even Asian military force.

Trying to hold the Contras in Latin America to American standards of military conduct — or the South Vietnamese or the South Koreans in prior conflicts — was not exactly a resounding success. The reason is that those American standards presume a disciplined cadre of military leaders who hold to Judeo-Christian values, and a much larger body of citizens who will take up arms to defend their country when needed and who share those values. Those citizens may need to be taught military order and discipline, but teaching people **HOW** to fire a rifle is far easier than teaching them **WHEN** and **WHY** to do so, or when **NOT** to do so.

We also need to remember our own Western history. With some important exceptions, the political leaders at the time of the Reformation and the Crusades were not exactly known for high standards of personal morality — many of them would quite correctly be attacked as hypocrites who used religion for personal profit or political goals. That's as true if not more true for many of the officers and soldiers in pre-modern armies of Europe.

We've been fortunate in the United States to generally have military leaders who held at least to culturally Judeo-Christian standards of ethics and enforced appropriate discipline on their troops, but many of the key military campaigns in European history were marked by grotesque levels of immorality, thievery, and wanton destruction of civilian lives and property. Even armies which were known as models of good order and discipline and which were motivated in large measure by religious zeal — Oliver Cromwell's military compared to the actions of the king's Cavaliers make an obvious example, but others could be cited — routinely committed actions which were harsh even by the standards of their day and would be considered war atrocities today.

We're used to the idea of American soldiers being the good guys who try to win over the population by handing out food, building public works projects, and holding disobedient soldiers to account. Those are all good things but they are products of our Judeo-Christian civilization that are not shared in a lot of other places in the world.

[darrellmaurina]

144 posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 6:49:51 PM by chessplayer: “Just had to check out DU to see their reaction to this. I expected them to be praising this but for the most part they aren’t. They are claiming it’s an imperialistic ploy by the US to steal Ugandas natural resources. But they aren’t blaming obama. They are blaming the generals in the Pentagon. I guess we`ve had a military coup and the Pentagon has taken over the country.”

Those people are nuts. They have no idea of how the military works, or how those at the upper levels of the military leadership are very much aware that they do the bidding of the political leadership, and won't pin on any more stars if they don't learn to play politics.

We're not anywhere close to a military coup and anyone who thinks that is proving their lack of understanding of the military.

[darrellmaurina]

218 posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 9:36:20 AM by AfricanChristian: “The surprising thing is that the average man on the street in Nairobi, Lagos or Cape Town is better informed about US Foreign Policy than the average American.”

That is sad but true. I'm married to a Korean, by the way, and have seen firsthand what it's like to have teenage Koreans know more about American foreign policy than too many of our elected leaders.

There was a day, up until World War II, that conservatives could make a good argument for being isolationists. I'm not saying the isolationists were right, but a policy of focusing on issues in North, Central, and South America, and (in the 1800s) of kicking European colonial powers out of the Western Hemisphere, made a lot of sense in the days when taking sides in European politics would just cause unnecessary problems for America, as had happened in the 1600s and early 1700s due to repeated American phases of European wars.

FReepers, as conservatives, need to understand that in the modern (post-World War II) world, foreign problems can reach out and touch us in a very bad way. 9/11 should have taught that to us. Ignorance of foreign policy is a major problem in the United States, and it leads to our political leaders being allowed to make bad decisions because we don't understand or even care what those decisions are.

[darrellmaurina]

African Christian wrote: “Secondly, have you looked at a map? Uganda has zero strategic interests in intervening in Al Shabab / Somalia. They are your “guns for hire” (much like the South Koreans in Vietnam). Ugandan troops are in Somalia today because the USG bribed the Ugandan Government to commit to Somalian operations.”

That's amazing that you, as an African, know the history of South Korean involvement in South Vietnam. The local Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) pastor in this community outside Fort Leonard Wood was one of those South Korean troops who fought in the Vietnam War before he went to seminary, and I think the vast majority of people in this area do a “double take” when he explains that he is a Vietnam War combat veteran.

I think you've just made your point about how many foreigners know more about American foreign policy than many Americans.

BTW, while the South Koreans can be described as being our “guns for hire” in South Vietnam, they were very effective guns.

By the late 1960s, the South Korean military was (and still is) tightly disciplined. Its officer corps was highly motivated in the 1960s by an anti-Communist ideology along with personal hatred in many cases for what the Communists had done to family and relatives in North Korea, and the South Korean senior military leadership understood the benefits of giving practical combat experience to their troops, given the regular menacing from North Korea and the unstable chaos which attended the end of Mao's rule in China.

The effective performance of the South Korean troops in Vietnam, who quickly developed a reputation for being vicious fighters who the Vietnamese didn't want to mess with, did an excellent job of making clear to the North Koreans and to China that South Korea had developed an army by the 1960s which was not only capable of defending South Korea but could mount an invasion of the North. Let's just say the Vietnam War may have been a political defeat for the United States, but the performance of South Korean troops made their experience in Vietnam a net positive for South Korea. We'll never know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese and the North Koreans were effectively deterred from anti-South Korean aggression by what the South Koreans did in Vietnam.

[Candor7]

It is so easy for ambitious politicians ANYWHERE in the World to con Americans:

(1). Claim your opponents support a radical American figure on the left or right (depends on who you want to lobby - democrat or republican).

(2). Claim your opponent is an Islamist or supports Islamists - works like a charm every time. (Americans are either too lazy or too uninterested most of the time to do due diligence on your claims).

This is why we hear that Uganda (a nation with 85% Christian population and in which 32% of Ugandans born into Islam are now Christians - Pew Forum) is now in danger of turning into the latest outpost of a World wide Islamic Caliphate. That is why we hear that Kenya (a nation with 83% Christian population) is now turning to into an Islamic state. ......................>>>>>>>

Well here is some news that might interest you:

“Sudan will go ahead with plans to adopt an entirely Islamic constitution and strengthen Islamic law, President Omar Hassan al-Bashir said on Wednesday, three months after its former civil war enemy South Sudan became independent.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2793198/posts

[AfricanChristian]

Ignorance of foreign policy is something conservatives need to eliminate like yesterday.

It was very embarrassing that even Rush didn’t know who the Lord’s Resistance Army are. He could have done a quick search and saved himself the embarrassment, but he went ahead and blamed “Obama for sending American troops to fight Christians” without first checking. I know he retracted his earlier statements but the damage had been done.

Herman Cain’s “Ubeki beki beki beki stan” gaffe may play well with a certain segment of the population, but it does conservatives no favours - it does not make them look serious.

Many of you don’t realise that for as little as $20 a month (or less) a lower middle class African, Latin American or Asian can access the best of Western broadcast media. In other words, America will be dealing with an increasingly sophisticated, well-informed and critical audience abroad in future.

You underestimate the number of people around the World who (a) speak English and (b) follow politics in America.

Americans used to have conservative presidents like Reagan who had both a detailed understanding of the World, its people and its complexities, but who could, if need arose, educate Americans about the World. Bush, had his heart in the right place, but was hampered by his limited knowledge.

The 21st Century calls for more, not less engagement with the World. That means that we must encourage our children to be more inquisitive about the rest of the World, spend some time abroad or learn another language (e.g. French, Spanish, Mandarin, Russian, Arabic, Swahili).

[AfricanChristian]

Sharia law in all Sudan has always been the goal of Hassan al-Turabi (he’s been in the business since the sixties). It doesn’t surprise me and it doesn’t mean much.

Sudan fought a long Civil War (in which at least 2.5 million died) and one of the triggers was the threat of Sharia law. Now that the Christian population is gone, I’ll guess they’ll go ahead and adopt it.

One thing you must realise about Muslims in Sub-Saharan Africa is that they have a healthy respect for Christians, because Christians in Sub-Saharan Africa tend to fight back and fight hard.

Do not for a moment believe that simply because some idiot somewhere in Africa declares Sharia law, that the Christian population is bound to meekly accept it. It was tried in places as diverse as Nigeria and Sudan and it has always led to a weakening of the Islamists. We are not Arab Christians and we don’t do “dhimmi”, there are more of us (Christians) than Muslims in Sub-Saharan Africa, so I don’t know what you expect us to be afraid of.

[Candor7]

so I don’t know what you expect us to be afraid of.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I do not expect Christians to be afraid of Islamists....but the problems confronting Christians like the Copts in Egypt who now are subject to slaughter do cause concern here in the USA.

The other aspect is that the Islamists seem to have access to the flow of large sums of Arab money to arm themselves across North Africa.And the arms seem to be getting increasingly more comprehensive as the Libyan arsenal seems to be on the market now.Ethiopia seems to have had success at preventing the dynamic for a very long time.

No my FRiend, I do not expect African Christians to be afraid but I do wish they had access to arms that the Islamists seem to have.

[BooBoo1000]

Where does Obama get off, sending troops without the approval of Congress. I am getting damn sick and tired of his just doing things on his own. Someone in Washington needs to get a collar on him, and shut him down,,,

[AfricanChristian]

Most heavy arms have to come via the coast through ports. Coastal regions are predominantly Christian. Secondly, have you considered the African diaspora? It is mainly Christian.

For example, total remittances by the Nigerian diaspora were about $10 billion alone in 2009.

Thirdly, most of the Oil and Gas reserves are in coastal areas (also predominantly Christian).

Please understand this, even though America is fighting a war against Islamists, that doesn’t mean that Islamic fundamentalism is the most pressing issue facing both Muslims and Christians in Africa. Most Africans will tell you that unemployment, sanitation and healthcare are more serious issues.

Islamic terrorism has never kept me up awake at night, but hunger, mosquitoes and unemployment have - severally.

[Candor7]

Islamic terrorism has never kept me up awake at night, but hunger, mosquitoes and unemployment have - severally>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gotcha loud and clear. So Obama should be sending food, agriculture equipment, insect spray and equipment, and promoting investment in Africa.It seems simple but somehow so complicated by graft and theft of resources. The joke here is thet the US Marines are the best delivery method of such aid, anyone touching it before delivery to the people who need it, gets it? I have always hoped that someone would come up with a method of delivery that would keep help from being stolen.It would be like magic. What would you suggest could be done in the areas of food, bugs and work?

[AfricanChristian]

The Chinese have a saying - “if you want prosperity, build a road”. Trade and infrastructure, not aid is the key to future prosperity. The West has been so programmed to give humanitarian aid that there is little hope that the West can ever be really useful to Africa.

All said, it is better to lift tariffs and barriers against US / European agricultural products than provide food aid. Africa is largely agricultural based and our products are closed to the US markets.

Talking about corruption - when the social and national security costs for corruption become too high for the ruling elite to bear, corruption will fall. This process is occurring slowly in some African nations (corruption and collusion with the Chinese cost Banda the last election in Zambia).

It is enlightened self-interest, not altruism that drives development. Ask yourself, why did Singapore develop? Because it was threatened, had few natural resources and foreign aid was not an option. If you look at Africa, a combination of rampant population growth, Western donor fatigue and the scarcity of “bleeding heart liberals” in either India or China will speed up that process.

Eventually your children or your children’s children will stop giving aid to Africa (I suspect that will happen in the next few decades). Africa will either have to sink or swim because the Chinese and Indians are not going to be doing any “Live Aid” style rock concerts.

[Candor7]

LOL.

I like your thinking and agree with it completely.

A four lane highway across Central Africa would make for a genuine Rte 66 experience ( Rte 66 is a cultural icon in the USA.)

There is a ready market in the USA for African agricultural products.I can assure you that I have longed for a drop in the tarrif walls and the free admission of African agricultural products to the USA. I need genuine kola nuts for my pepper pot stews.And then there is "custard apple*." It is ambrosia.There would be a ready market for African grown fruit. The irradiation treatment of fruit would make this possible.

One wonders why these things have not ocurred.It makes obvious sense. Our nation needs to get on the right track about this.

************************************************************

*

Custard apple also called as bullock’s heart, bull’s heart, or cherimoya. This fruit can be found in Southeast Asia, Taiwan, India, Australia, and Africa. This exotic fruit is bringing so much health benefits along with it delicious taste. And here are the health benefits of Custard Apple as quoted from Times of India:

1. Custard apples contains antioxidants and vitamin C that helps to fight free radicals in our body.

2. High in potassium and magnesium that will protect your heart from cardiac diseases and control your blood pressure. Magnesium helps to equalize water balance in our body and helps to remove acids from joints and reduces the symptoms of rheumatism and arthritis. Potassium will helps to fight muscle weakness, so if you feeling tired and weak more than usual, eat this fruit often.

3. Vitamin A content will keep your skin and hair healthy and also good for your eye health.

4. Helps cure indigestion problems by its copper content. It will cure constipation and also helps to treat diarrhea and dysentery.

5. High in calorie so this fruit is good for people with anemia. It also helps to gain healthy weight as well.

6. Contains natural sugar and can be used as nutritious snack and dessert.

***************************

Custard Apple:

[monkeyshine]

12 soldiers? What about their supplies? Eventually 100 - will we build a supply line? Who’s side will they “advise”. Shades of Vietnam here, sending adviser in with orders not to fight. Getting involved in the tribal fights in Central Africa is more asinine than Vietnam considering there is no easy way in or out, and no place to retreat to.

[NavyCanDo]

Rush is where I first heard of the story, and yes he did say the LRA was a Cristian freedom Fighter group which is where I made the mistake in repeating that here. I would think he would have a better research staff than that.

[ChiefKD]

It’s called the Machete Disease! It causes limbs to fall off bodies...

[exit82]

This is how Vietnam began in 1959.

Just a few advisors. Harmless, really.

Soetoro is out of control.

[upcountryhorseman]

Why are we sending troops to Africa? We have no business getting involved in that mess!

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

” if you incorrectly boil this down to a Christian-Muslim issue”

I’m tired of repeating myself. People keep putting words in my mouth.