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Cain 9-9-9: Huge Tax Haul from VAT
CATO ^

Posted on 10/18/2011 2:41:08 PM PDT by Def Conservative

The Herman Cain campaign released details of the revenue expected to be collected from his 9-9-9 tax plan. Here are the estimates for 2010:

$701 billion from the 9 percent personal income tax. $753 billion from the 9 percent retail sales tax. $863 billion from the 9 percent business VAT. Yikes! By far the largest tax haul under the Cain plan would be from the business VAT—a tax which would be hidden from most voters.

By the way, the Cain business tax is not a tax on “corporate income,” as some media stories are identifying it. The new revenue data makes it clear that it is a tax on all value added by all businesses in the nation—corporate, partnership, and proprietorship.

Sorry Mr. Cain, I think your tax plan gives the federal government far too much room to grow in coming decades as entitlement cost pressures increase. I’d suggest dropping 9-9-9 and going with my 15-15-15 tax plan. After that, you could move on to proposing a detailed plan for spending cuts, as candidate Ron Paul has delivered.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: cain; economy; genius; hermancain; knowsnato; paulbot; pizza; tax; zapinator
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1 posted on 10/18/2011 2:41:15 PM PDT by Def Conservative
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To: Def Conservative

He’s pushing a VAT? I don’t like that idea.


2 posted on 10/18/2011 2:43:43 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: Def Conservative

Is it a retail sales tax or a VAT. I read both. People swear it’s a sales tax. Others swear it’s a vat.

Cain has to nail this down. His web site is ambiguous.


3 posted on 10/18/2011 2:44:40 PM PDT by DManA
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To: the invisib1e hand
It's a sales tax--a retail sales tax. The VAT to which they are referring is the corporate tax, the other "9."

9% retail sales tax, 9% personal income tax, and 9% corporate tax. They are claiming the corporate tax is actually a VAT.
4 posted on 10/18/2011 2:50:39 PM PDT by Sudetenland (There can be no freedom without God--What man gives, man can take away.)
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To: Def Conservative

Total B/S!


5 posted on 10/18/2011 2:50:47 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Rebellion is brewing!! Impeach the corrupt Marxist bastard!!)
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To: Sudetenland

The business tax is a VAT.


6 posted on 10/18/2011 2:52:12 PM PDT by Huck (TAX TEA NOW==SUPPORT 9-9-9!)
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To: Def Conservative

Pretty simple:
9% sales tax applied on all new goods (.09xselling price before local & state sales tax) Used goods..no tax

9% income tax on gross earnings less charitable deductions

9% corporate tax on net earnings (salaries/payrolls not expensed)

No payroll tax, no cap gains tax, no death tax


7 posted on 10/18/2011 2:54:00 PM PDT by Kahuna
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To: DManA
Here's something I don't understand...

Cain claims there are "hidden, secret, embedded" taxes in the price we pay for goods due to the taxes on business to business that are figured into the final price of goods.

The number I've most often heard is 22%. Cain says he wants to replace the "hidden embedded" 22% taxes with a visible 9% Fed Sales Tax...

People claim the Fed Sales Tax is good because it "captures revenue from illegal immigrants" at the cash registers.

But don't illegal immigrants pay MORE NOW with the "hidden embedded" 22% than they would under 9-9-9??

If 9-9-9 replaces 22% hidden taxes with 9% visible taxes, isn't that a Revenue SHORTFALL for the Fed Govt? How does that help us when we are $15 Trillion in debt?

8 posted on 10/18/2011 2:55:34 PM PDT by sklar
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To: Kahuna
9% on top of the already excised items as well? Gas, cigs, beer?

Bush had a tax plan, cut taxes, cool. We need to Gut Gov't, where is that plan of his?

9 posted on 10/18/2011 3:01:53 PM PDT by FritzG
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To: Huck
The business tax is a VAT.

Wrong again. Look up "VAT Tax."

10 posted on 10/18/2011 3:03:56 PM PDT by Cobra64 (Too many people are incapable of critical thinking. Common sense isn't common anymore.)
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To: sklar

I’m going to take a shot at this..??.

Company A makes widgets and pay a 35% corporate tax so company A passes on his cost of goods including his tax liability to Company B that assembles the widgets into a product they retail. Company B may buy gadgets and materiel from multiple vendors, all of which pay 35% tax and include it in the final products they sell. Company B must pass on all their costs including their 35% tax in order to earn a profit.


11 posted on 10/18/2011 3:04:24 PM PDT by Kahuna
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To: sklar
Well, one the assumptions is that when the Cap gains and other business taxes are cut, that will bring in more investment from foreign firms and entities, which in turn will create a larger tax base and consumption, which would create more revenue with the option to pay debt.
12 posted on 10/18/2011 3:05:24 PM PDT by FritzG
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To: Def Conservative
I read that article, then see that this person is basing HIS numbers on Bloomberg's faulty analysis last week. 9% Business Flat Tax ◦Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports. 9% Individual Flat Tax. ◦Gross income less charitable deductions. 9% National Sales Tax. ◦Unlike a state sales tax, which is an add-on tax that increases the price of goods and services, this is a replacement tax. It replaces taxes that are already embedded in selling prices. By replacing higher marginal rates in the production process with lower marginal rates, marginal production costs actually decline, which will lead to prices being the same or lower, not higher.
13 posted on 10/18/2011 3:05:44 PM PDT by justsaynomore (Cain 2012 - http://teamcain.hermancain.com)
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To: Huck

Value Added Tax (VAT) is on product taxed at very point of production and is hidden in every product purchased. Cain’s corporate tax reduces the current 35% corporate tax to 9% which will be the lowest among industrialized nations worldwide. None of Cain’s 999 plan has double and triple taxation such as in the current system.


14 posted on 10/18/2011 3:06:16 PM PDT by Stymee
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To: FritzG

“9% on top of the already excised items as well? Gas, cigs, beer?”

If the oil companies ,beer brewers and the tobacco companies go from 35% to 9% in corporate tax, they will have to reduce their prices to the market. IE...gas $3 gal before excise tax may drop as much as 10% to $2.70 gal. The excise tax, sales tax and fed 9% would actually lower the cost at the pump by a few pennies.


15 posted on 10/18/2011 3:12:21 PM PDT by Kahuna
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To: Def Conservative

It appears to me that CATO is misrepresenting different parts of Cain’s plans.


16 posted on 10/18/2011 3:12:51 PM PDT by Oatka ("A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." –Bertrand de Jouvenel)
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To: justsaynomore
which will lead to prices being the same or lower, not higher.

But if prices stay the same, doesn't the brand-new 9% Fed Sales Tax simply increase the cost of everything by 9%?

17 posted on 10/18/2011 3:13:11 PM PDT by sklar
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To: sklar

I don’t totally understand it either. However, if his plan generates less revenue than the current system, then I’m all for it. If the giant government brings in less money, then they will have to cut spending. Because, Mr. Cain is set at 9-9-9, and no more. I’d really like to hear more from Mr. Cain on spending. What is he going to do about this ridiculously huge government which is crushing the private citizen? Is his plan to choke it with 9-9-9, or does he plan on actually cutting spending?


18 posted on 10/18/2011 3:13:43 PM PDT by Big E
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To: sklar
If 9-9-9 replaces 22% hidden taxes with 9% visible taxes, isn't that a Revenue SHORTFALL for the Fed Govt? How does that help us when we are $15 Trillion in debt?

This 999 this is supposed to be so simple, but it seems as if no one gets the same thing from what they think this 999 plan is or does. I know I'm totally confused.

sklar, I've been wondering what you just mentioned too. If we are taking the consumer-hidden taxes from the federal revenue and replacing that with such a lesser amount of federal tax revenue, I would think we would have to have corresponding tax cuts from the federal budget to align to the lesser federal revenue proceeds.

I'm certainly OK with a smaller federal government, but I would think we had better have cuts in place or at least ready to go when we start having that lesser federal revenue coming in.

Of course, as I said, I'm pretty much confused in all of this anyway and hear something different every day, so I really don't even know if I'm close to seeing the benefits verses the pitfalls.

19 posted on 10/18/2011 3:18:43 PM PDT by casinva (Say "NO" to expanded federal bureaucracy and entitlements through 999 minority empowerment zones!)
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To: sklar
But don't illegal immigrants pay MORE NOW with the "hidden embedded" 22% than they would under 9-9-9??

Excellent question!

One of many reasons we need to know more about the details. (This won't all get sorted out before election, but it's certainly going to have to get sorted out before it goes to Congress for vote.)

20 posted on 10/18/2011 3:26:43 PM PDT by BagCamAddict (Order 15 Herman Cain Yard Signs for $130: https://store.hermancain.com/orderform.asp?pid=20)
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To: Def Conservative

Except Cain’s plan isn’t even close to a VAT tax. Anyone who has worked with EU corporations can spot the difference almost immediately.

A VAT taxes all level of production of an item or service. VATs can actually end up costing the end purchaser 27% to 30% more on the cost of an item- and this is in addition to the hidden corporate taxes already built in.

Cain’s plan is a flat 9% at the sales end and 9% to replace the corporate tax. That is a drastic reduction over the taxable expense corporations pay and pass on to the customer.


21 posted on 10/18/2011 3:26:44 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: sklar

“But if prices stay the same, doesn’t the brand-new 9% Fed Sales Tax simply increase the cost of everything by 9%? “

Market forces will impact pricing downward under the 999 plan. As a small business owner I will take the payroll savings (fica,SSI ect) coupled with my lower income tax burden and reduce my retail pricing to grab a greater share of the market. I have already conceived of an advertising ploy that offers our customer our product at an out the door price whereby we will pay the 9%. I would hire more people and expand my operation in a heartbeat just knowing that my cap gains are no longer taxed and my overall income tax will remain at 9%. Multiply my business by millions of Sub S companies and America will rise from the ashes.


22 posted on 10/18/2011 3:27:14 PM PDT by Kahuna
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To: the invisib1e hand

What I like best about the 9-9-9 plan is that everyone pays the tax, not just those in the upper 50%. The freeloaders in the bottom 50% will have start paying, just like the rest of us!


23 posted on 10/18/2011 3:30:23 PM PDT by kgrif_Salinas
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To: the invisib1e hand

What I like best about the 9-9-9 plan is that everyone pays the tax, not just those in the upper 50%. The freeloaders in the bottom 50% will have start paying, just like the rest of us!


24 posted on 10/18/2011 3:30:40 PM PDT by kgrif_Salinas
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To: Def Conservative
Just more evidence that Cain's simple-minded tax plan is anything by simple in practice.

I have yet to see any two people really agree on what 9-9-9 means.

25 posted on 10/18/2011 3:31:47 PM PDT by behzinlea (Perry is the adult in the race. Cain is the prepubescent class clown.)
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To: Def Conservative; Jim Robinson

I find it funny, this same author proposed an almost identical corporate tax proposal in 2007.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/articles/edwards-taxnotes-laffer-curve.pdf

He basically makes the argument in that article for Cain’s 9% corporate tax he is now falsely calling a VAT.

The only difference, he is calling for higher rates- 15%.


26 posted on 10/18/2011 3:32:44 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: DManA
"Is it a retail sales tax or a VAT."

Both. The article is saying there is no corporate income tax -- it's a VAT.

Then you add a federal sales tax.

27 posted on 10/18/2011 3:36:05 PM PDT by misterwhite
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To: Def Conservative

While some will have their ox gored....tax accountants....the beauty of 999 is that everyone will share in the cost of government and suddenly become a little more fiscally conservative. Lobbyists will also lose an ox or two as it pertains to congressional tax loopholes. IRS employees could be sent to secure the border! lol

Investors worldwide fight to the death for a one or two percent edge. Can you imagine the flood of dough into our Country once cap gains is eliminated?


28 posted on 10/18/2011 3:42:40 PM PDT by Kahuna
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To: mnehring

“I find it funny, this same author proposed an almost identical corporate tax proposal in 2007.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/articles/edwards-taxnotes-laffer-curve.pdf

He basically makes the argument in that article for Cain’s 9% corporate tax he is now falsely calling a VAT.

The only difference, he is calling for higher rates- 15%.”

Seriously, how bizarre is that!? This raises a lot of suspicion about this guy’s motive


29 posted on 10/18/2011 3:43:25 PM PDT by justsaynomore (Cain 2012 - http://teamcain.hermancain.com)
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To: justsaynomore
This raises a lot of suspicion about this guy’s motive

Look at the last line at the source article.. He is pimping for Ron Paul... (and admits he is calling for the same thing,but at 15%).. lol...

30 posted on 10/18/2011 3:46:09 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: Big E
If the giant government brings in less money, then they will have to cut spending.

LOL. So where does all our government debt come from, Sherlock?

31 posted on 10/18/2011 3:51:29 PM PDT by Huck (TAX TEA NOW==SUPPORT 9-9-9!)
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To: mnehring; Jim Robinson
Look at the last line at the source article.. He is pimping for Ron Paul... (and admits he is calling for the same thing,but at 15%).. lol...

Mystery solved ;-P

32 posted on 10/18/2011 3:53:53 PM PDT by justsaynomore (Cain 2012 - http://teamcain.hermancain.com)
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To: Huck

What I’m saying is, in order to shrink the size of government you can either 1) cut spending, or 2) cut its revenues. No one has had much success limiting its spending. If you limit its revenue, then you automatically limit its size. Oh, they can print money, and keep spending money they don’t have, but eventually the markets will stop that, just like they did in Greece.


33 posted on 10/18/2011 3:57:25 PM PDT by Big E
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To: Big E
If you limit its revenue, then you automatically limit its size. Oh, they can print money, and keep spending money they don’t have, but eventually the markets will stop that, just like they did in Greece.

So your economic plan is for the US to default? Get real. You can't "starve the beast." The only way to reduce the size of government is to CUT government. Period.

34 posted on 10/18/2011 3:59:36 PM PDT by Huck (TAX TEA NOW==SUPPORT 9-9-9!)
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To: Huck

The flat income tax is a subtraction method vat.


35 posted on 10/18/2011 4:02:50 PM PDT by Principled
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To: sklar

currently, embedded tax represents tax costs of the seller - not tax costs of the buyer. In an embedded tax scenario, the buyer pays the seller’s taxes, not his own.

In 999 as I understand it, the buyer pays a portion of his own taxes in a purchase - and the seller pays a portion of his profits [which, oddly, ends up hidden!!!]


36 posted on 10/18/2011 4:07:05 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Cobra64

Any flat income tax IS by definition a subtraction method vat. The flat income tax you’ve heard about before 999 is a subtraction method vat. That’s one of the major reasons i do not want a flat tax.

I credit Cain for starting a fruitful discussion - in fact what I predicted he’d do. I had no idea he’d get this big... wonder if he’ll survive tonight.

Anyway, the measure I support is NO income tax and ALL retail sales tax.


37 posted on 10/18/2011 4:10:29 PM PDT by Principled
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To: mnehring; Def Conservative

Yup, just another goofy paultard:

“Sorry Mr. Cain, I think your tax plan gives the federal government far too much room to grow in coming decades as entitlement cost pressures increase. I’d suggest dropping 9-9-9 and going with my 15-15-15 tax plan. After that, you could move on to proposing a detailed plan for spending cuts, as candidate Ron Paul has delivered.”


38 posted on 10/18/2011 4:10:51 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Rebellion is brewing!! Impeach the corrupt Marxist bastard!!)
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To: mnehring; Def Conservative

Not that I have anything against spending cuts. I’ve always believed that’s where we should start. Get spending under control and taxes will come down.

My plan is and always has been:

Cut spending.
Cut regulations.
Cut government.
Cut taxes.

Rinse and repeat.

Simply abide by the constitution and all of our spending, taxing and nannystate problems are solved. Presto!


39 posted on 10/18/2011 4:15:12 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Rebellion is brewing!! Impeach the corrupt Marxist bastard!!)
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To: FritzG
Bush had a tax plan, cut taxes, cool. We need to Gut Gov't, where is that plan of his?

Exactly ... gov spending is the problem, till that is hit with a huge hammer, there is no tax fix. When will these supposed conservatives tell us how they will shrink government and government spending? Bunch of progressives I am thinking. Step up to the plate and show us what you are going to do.

40 posted on 10/18/2011 4:22:28 PM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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To: DManA; the invisib1e hand; All
It's not a VAT. No one needs to swear anything. Just check Cain's website. There's a retail sales tax on new item purchases only.

American business-to-business sales are deductible from the business income flat tax as are capital investments like machinery purchases.

The ones claiming there's a VAT are Paulbots and other scaremongers.

As anyone can see there's no supply-chain consumption tax.

41 posted on 10/18/2011 4:26:47 PM PDT by newzjunkey
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To: free_life
Exactly ... gov spending is the problem, till that is hit with a huge hammer, there is no tax fix.

Well, spending is a problem in large part b/c half pay no income tax. Many of those pay no payroll tax.

No wonder they don't want a change eh?

Some plan that motivates ALL individuals to keep the cost of government down will have an effect on spending. That's why the wailing and gnashing of teeth about Cain's plan - it would bring everyone - EVERYONE - into being a taxpayer in such a way to make paying the tax painful. It should be.

Now I'm no fan of 999 b/c it keeps an income tax, keeps withholding, keeps taxes hidden in the prices of goods. But I am a fan of Cain. He started the discussion.

42 posted on 10/18/2011 4:27:57 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Huck

Hey, I agree with you. Government spending should be slashed immediately. By that I mean, cut 30, 40, 50%. However, every dime which goes to Washington in taxes is a dime too much.


43 posted on 10/18/2011 4:29:16 PM PDT by Big E
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To: Sudetenland
They are claiming the corporate tax is actually a VAT.

Is it or isn't it?

44 posted on 10/18/2011 4:29:42 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (...then they came for the guitars, and we kicked their sorry faggot asses into the dust)
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To: Stymee

None of Cain’s 999 plan has double and triple taxation such as in the current system.


I’m a Cain supporter and campaign contributor, and support 999 overall.

But I think his plan actually taxes wages twice. Once in the corporate income tax on revenue that passes through to wages, and again on the employee receiving the wages.

A corporation with $100,000 revue, all going to wages (not making any money) has a tax bill of $9000, giving it a loss of $9000. The employees contribute pay another $9000 income tax.

Basically, as I read it (and hope I’m wrong, and support the plan even if I’m not) 999 includes a 9% corporate profits tax, plus a 9% payroll tax, plus a 9% income tax, plus the 9% sales tax. Essentially, the employer’s portion of the payroll tax is increased from ~7.6% to 9%.


45 posted on 10/18/2011 4:31:27 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: Kahuna

If the oil companies ,beer brewers and the tobacco companies go from 35% to 9% in corporate tax, they will have to reduce their prices to the market. IE...gas $3 gal before excise tax may drop as much as 10% to $2.70 gal. The excise tax, sales tax and fed 9% would actually lower the cost at the pump by a few pennies.


Those companies (don’t forget guns and ammo which pay 10%) presently pay corporate taxes in addition to the excise taxes, which are a cost of doing business that reduce taxable profits.

I happen to think that an excise tax on guns and ammo is an infringement of the right to keep and bear arms.

Cain has not suggested these would be repealed that I have heard.


46 posted on 10/18/2011 4:34:42 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: sklar

People claim the Fed Sales Tax is good because it “captures revenue from illegal immigrants” at the cash registers.

But don’t illegal immigrants pay MORE NOW with the “hidden embedded” 22% than they would under 9-9-9??


Good point. Those people might be wrong.

But it’s a good argument in the alternative.


47 posted on 10/18/2011 4:35:59 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: newzjunkey
Well newzjunkey what you'll run into is someone who knows that the flat income tax portion of 999 is by definition a VAT.

I think the flat income tax is better than what we have now - but I'm not too keen on having a flat income tax and a national retail sales tax. Besides all the bad things about the flat income tax [keeps withholding, keeps hidden taxes in prices, and in most flat tax proposals it keeps FICA but maybe not 999] My hope is for the elimination of the income tax code entirely and replace the revenue with a national retail sales tax for ALL our needs.

I credit Cain for starting this discussion. So while I'm not wild about 999 I am wild about Cain.

48 posted on 10/18/2011 4:37:15 PM PDT by Principled
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To: kgrif_Salinas

What I like best about the 9-9-9 plan is that everyone pays the tax, not just those in the upper 50%.


And even more important, these folks will FEEL the taxes they pay, instead of having them embedded in the cost of goods, or hidden as an “employer contribution.”


49 posted on 10/18/2011 4:40:43 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: Kahuna
I’m going to take a shot at this..??.

You forgot that the current 35% tax is on profits, not income. Most companies have a small margin, so they pay 35% on a small amount of their revenue.

Cain eliminates their deductions, so they pay 9% on almost all of their added value. That's why most people who are studying the plan call the business tax a VAT, because it isn't a profits tax.

50 posted on 10/18/2011 5:44:53 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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