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VAT: The cowardly tax(April 2010 Cain opposed VAT and was for a National sales tax)
THE New Voice, Inc ^ | April 12, 2010 | Herman Cain

Posted on 10/19/2011 9:19:20 AM PDT by sickoflibs

Now that President Obama and the Democrats have generated a projected record $10 trillion in new debt over the next 10 years, they are now singing their favorite song: We must raise taxes!

Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., sent the first signal a few weeks ago when he said paying taxes is the price we pay for living in this great country. Never mind that we are paying too much and that too much of our money is being wasted.

One of the president's senior economic advisers, Paul Volcker, said recently in a speech that "we must raise taxes" to deal with the deficit. Never mind that the administration and the Democrats made an already bad deficit situation worse, and never mind that they were aware of the situation before they jammed the disastrous health-care bill through Congress for the president's signature.

It is outrageous that they have played the taxpayers for the sucker punch of the century. They ignored the coming deficits of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid while passing the massive health-care bill. To make matters worse, Mr. Volcker is suggesting the dreaded value-added-tax, also called a VAT tax.

Please insert the scream of your choice right here if you already know the implications of a new VAT on this country. Otherwise, keep reading.

A VAT is not a single new tax. It is several new sneak-a-taxes. It taxes each phase in the development of a product or service until it is ultimately sold to the end user, and you also pay any applicable retail sales taxes. These intermediate taxes are passed along to the consumer and are reflected as a net increase in the price of the goods or service.

The doubly outrageous aspect of the VAT is that it is on top of all the other state and federal taxes we pay. Paul Volcker and the Democrats like the VAT because it is hidden from the clueless and uninformed voter, who will forget about it soon after it is passed if it is passed.

The VAT is also a cowardly tax increase because these same clueless and uninformed voters will easily blame the greedy retailers for raising the prices of their merchandise. And for the 50 percent of the taxpayers who have figured out how not to pay any taxes at all, this administration and Congress will find a way to give them a VAT exemption.

Just as Obamacare puts this country a giant step closer to becoming the United States of Europe, passage of a VAT would certainly seal the deal as the New Europe, which would be nearly impossible to undo. I said nearly impossible, not completely.

The answer to reducing the deficit and supercharging the economy is to replace the tax code with the single-rate Fair Tax(National Sales Tax). This solution assumes, however, that there is no continued increase in federal spending. With this administration and Democrat-controlled Congress, stopping the spending is completely impossible.

Obama and the Democrats in Congress would never consider the answer to reducing the debt and stimulating the economy I just proposed, because it does not achieve their goals of a government power grab, expanding the role of government in our lives or creating more social programs for the clueless and the uninformed so they will continue to elect and re-elect liberal Democrats to Congress and the White House.

Never mind what We the People want, but we will remember in November.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 999; cain; salestax; vat
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Posting this Cain editorial ~ 18 months old to make clear that Cain was for the Fair (National Sales) Tax and against a VAT and he knows the difference between the two.
1 posted on 10/19/2011 9:19:29 AM PDT by sickoflibs
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To: sickoflibs

I see reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit.

Actually READ the article. 9-9-9 and VAT are totally different type of taxes. There is NO VAT in 9-9-9.


2 posted on 10/19/2011 9:21:59 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: fightinJAG; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; calcowgirl; Gilbo_3; ...

I cant sell Cain’s plan FOR him but I can clear up this BS being spread around about him.


3 posted on 10/19/2011 9:22:48 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: sickoflibs

you know VAT isn’t anything like a Sales Tax, right?

VAT is paid through every level of the economy for ever value add to a process.

Sales Tax is only on its final consumption by the consumer.


4 posted on 10/19/2011 9:23:37 AM PDT by dila813
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To: MNJohnnie
RE :"Actually READ the article. 9-9-9 and VAT are totally different type of taxes. There is NO VAT in 9-9-9."

That is the point of my re-posting this. He knew the sales tax was NOT a VAT even then and explains the difference.

I see you have brought over your same rosy personality to Cain.

5 posted on 10/19/2011 9:26:54 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: dila813

The VAT angle comes up not because of Cain’s sales tax, but because his corporate tax is based on

“Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports.”

That is, corporations cannot deduct the cost of labor when figuring their taxable income. It’s that aspect that makes Cain’s corporate tax like a VAT.

However, the analyses I’ve seen (including Bachmann’s disengenuous remarks last night), neglect to mention that the ~8% that corporations currently pay on labor through payroll taxes are eliminated in Cain’s proposal.


6 posted on 10/19/2011 9:27:50 AM PDT by Royal Wulff
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To: sickoflibs
Posting this Cain editorial ~ 18 months old to make clear that Cain was for the Fair (National Sales) Tax and against a VAT and he knows the difference between the two.

Thanks !

Seems like "box o' rocks" Bachmann
does not know the difference.

And Myth Romney does not know
the difference between an apple and an orange.

But he will sell you a lemon(RomneyCare).


7 posted on 10/19/2011 9:28:04 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: MNJohnnie

I think that is what sickoflibs is saying.


8 posted on 10/19/2011 9:28:04 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: dila813
RE :"you know VAT isn’t anything like a Sales Tax, right?"

See #5. What is the problem??

9 posted on 10/19/2011 9:29:08 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: cuban leaf; sickoflibs
I see reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit

I see reading comprehension is not MY strong suit :-)

10 posted on 10/19/2011 9:34:32 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; dila813; MNJohnnie
Thanks for reading my comment #1.

I posted this to defend Cain against misinformation being spread against him and I get two complaints by Cain-bots who only read the title and not my comment #1 thinking I was being critical on the point.

Bachmann beat Cain and the others hands down on the 14th amendment question so go lightly on her.

11 posted on 10/19/2011 9:34:53 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: Royal Wulff

Yep it was a very dishonest comment from a Tax Lawyer like Bachmann. She knows full well her statements were not accurate.


12 posted on 10/19/2011 9:35:56 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: MNJohnnie; cuban leaf; dila813
RE :"I see reading comprehension is not MY strong suit :-)"

Look, only so many characters allowed in the title so you have to read comment #1 to get my point in posting this.

13 posted on 10/19/2011 9:38:02 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: sickoflibs
One of the president's senior economic advisers, Paul Volcker, said recently in a speech that "we must raise taxes" to deal with the deficit. Never mind that the administration and the Democrats made an already bad deficit situation worse, and never mind that they were aware of the situation before they jammed the disastrous health-care bill through Congress for the president's signature.

This probably explains why when Cain was asked about a "good fed chairman" at the NBC debate did not cite Volker. Seems Volker gone over to the dark side. Someone better let Ron Paul know about this.

14 posted on 10/19/2011 9:39:38 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: sickoflibs

Thanks for the article. Given the criticisms against Mr. Cain’s 9-9-9 plan and people claiming it is a VAT tax, this article from Mr. Cain shows that he is steadfastly against VAT so I can hardly believe that he would suddenly propose such a thing.

I mean, after all, he isn’t 0bama!


15 posted on 10/19/2011 9:41:58 AM PDT by Sister_T ("Calling ILLEGAL aliens "immigrants" is like calling shoplifters 'customers'!"-UCFRoadWarrior ><>)
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To: sickoflibs

That’s what I did. I was defending you. :-)


16 posted on 10/19/2011 9:44:44 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: sickoflibs
We already have a VAT, and its name is "corporate income tax."
17 posted on 10/19/2011 9:44:53 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: MNJohnnie
RE :"Someone better let Ron Paul know about this"

An uninspiring moment with Paul was when he was critical of the 9% sales tax claiming he thinks it great that half the country pays no Federal taxes (beyond entitlement and gas) with the rest picking up the tab for the voters endless wish-lists, as if that is a stable situation.

I dont think Paul ever got any significant spending cuts passed in his whole career unlike REAL doers like John Kasich. But he talks big.

18 posted on 10/19/2011 9:48:15 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: sickoflibs

April 2010 -— why bother — looked like another dredging troll

Why not get a current article then link in your comment to this one and then get into it.


19 posted on 10/19/2011 9:49:50 AM PDT by dila813
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To: sickoflibs

You are doing a good job at doing what you can do to sell 999. This is what we all have to do.

No candidate can do it alone.

As I’ve said previously, it’s time for those of us who understand the comprehensive benefits of this idea, not only for our economic prosperity, but even more importantly for our political freedom, to do the LINEMAN PUSH.

We have to get behind the ball carrier and double-down on pushing and pushing and pushing him against and over the defensive wall into the end zone. Keep pushing until the whistle blows.


20 posted on 10/19/2011 9:49:56 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: cuban leaf

Thanks, a Perry-bot was claiming that Cain said a flat sales tax like Cain’s = a VAT so I found this to refute that.


21 posted on 10/19/2011 9:50:51 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: sickoflibs

The 999 plan isn’t a VAT, it isn’t even similar to a VAT. Cain has stayed consistent.


22 posted on 10/19/2011 9:51:50 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: sickoflibs

Ignore my last post.... I’ve had to say that so often here it is almost rote.


23 posted on 10/19/2011 9:52:45 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: dila813
RE :"Why not get a current article then link in your comment to this one and then get into it."

This proves that Cain is consistent with his position now AND then April 2010 on taxes.

24 posted on 10/19/2011 9:53:51 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: MNJohnnie; sickoflibs

No need to start your post with a personal insult to the OP.

Your point is the very point of the OP’s post.

This article is posted in refutation of that ridiculous thread by Polybius claiming Cain was for a VAT.


25 posted on 10/19/2011 9:54:22 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: sickoflibs
I dont think Paul ever got any significant spending cuts passed in his whole career unlike REAL doers like John Kasich. But he talks big.

Paul hasn't gotten anything significant passed in his entire career. I think the only bills he's authored that were passed were simple statements (like awarding some congressional medal to a baseball player in his district). Phil Gramm once said Paul's bills were so poorly written and lacked any detail as to how, they couldn't even move in committee.

26 posted on 10/19/2011 9:55:36 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: sickoflibs

Seems the tea party may be losing momentum after months of body blows by the media and politicians on both sides of the aisle.

This government must be brought under control and there is no way on God’s green earth that can be done if they are given even more money to waste.

If we do not starve fedzilla it will only continue to consume much more than we can afford.

When ALL foreign aid is eliminated, a huge reduction in our handouts to the UN is stopped, all our troops are returned from Germany, Japan, S. Korea and any place which is currently not a hot war, and not a single penny to anyone here who is not in the country legally... Then, and only then, start looking at domestic spending but still no more taxes PERIOD.


27 posted on 10/19/2011 9:57:52 AM PDT by Wurlitzer (Welcome to the new USSA (United Socialist States of Amerika))
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To: Royal Wulff

I disagree that whether or not the cost of labor is deducted has anything to do with whether a tax is a VAT.

A VAT is literally a “value-added tax.” What it seeks to tax is the “value added” at each step of the process of bringing an item to market.

This, of course, not only adds a tax at every step of the way, it opens the process to political corruption because someone, out-of-sight, of course, gets to define what is “value” at every step of the process and then define when “value” is “added” and then define how to measure how much “value” was “added.”

It really doesn’t have anything to do with the cost of labor.

Further, I think those who claim the NRST is a VAT are not thinking at the level of sophistication you are anyway. They just see a tax on consumer goods and think “VAT.”


28 posted on 10/19/2011 9:58:40 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: mnehring
RE :"Ignore my last post.... I’ve had to say that so often here it is almost rote."

You are the third one to think I didnt read the article based on the character limited title. Anyone reading this will understand Cain said the VAT and national single level sales taxes were completely different back then as now.

29 posted on 10/19/2011 9:59:00 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: sickoflibs

This is a good thread and title. It will attract some of the people who have been misinformed about Cain, they might learn something and switch over.


30 posted on 10/19/2011 9:59:26 AM PDT by palmer (Before reading this post, please send me $2.50)
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To: sickoflibs; All

As an aside, for those who claim one of the drawbacks of Herman Cain having not held political office is the lack of a record to review, this man in fact has a huge written record, not just of votes and such, but of his actual, substantive thinking and analysis on the issues of the day.

I’d take that any day or a political attendance record.


31 posted on 10/19/2011 10:00:41 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: MNJohnnie

That was nice of you to handle it that way. Appreciate the civility.

Now, let’s get back to that “lineman’s push” I’ve been talking about.


32 posted on 10/19/2011 10:02:27 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

That is inaccurate on so many levels.


33 posted on 10/19/2011 10:04:09 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG

[CITATION NEEDED]


34 posted on 10/19/2011 10:05:39 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: dila813

I guessed you missed all the brouhaha about Cain supporting a VAT that was based on a false reading of an earlier article than his.

As for searching through the Cain archives, it’s a beautiful thing. Seeing a man who believes what he believes, then and now, is a beautiful thing.

It adds to the debate immeasurably.


35 posted on 10/19/2011 10:06:17 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: mnehring

A sign of the intensity of the debate. Which is a good thing (so long as people are nice about when they realize they didn’t read enough before posting).

I’m personally very happy with the degree of analysis going on re 999.


36 posted on 10/19/2011 10:08:31 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG; MNJohnnie; palmer; mnehring; cuban leaf; dila813; Sister_T
RE :"This article is posted in refutation of that ridiculous thread by Polybius claiming Cain was for a VAT."

Bingo as I challenged it then/there with a link to this and pinged you and you thanked me. That whole post was so edited and excerpted it smelled like crap a mile away.

This is here to be used as needed. Like I said, I cant sell his bill for him like he has the power to but I can correct intentional misinformation.

37 posted on 10/19/2011 10:09:47 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: Wurlitzer

I don’t see the Tea Party losing momentum at all.

The fact that we are having a huge and robust debate on a major tax reform proposal says it all.

When Steve Forbes ran on the Flat Tax years ago, he couldn’t even get conservatives all that excited.

The time is now! And this thing is picking up steam, not losing it!


38 posted on 10/19/2011 10:10:32 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Sorry, FRiend.

YOU made the statement.

YOU defend it with citations.

Thanks.


39 posted on 10/19/2011 10:11:47 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: sickoflibs

The 9-9-9 plan eliminates all hidden taxes. What you see is what you get. We cureently have all kinds of hidden taxes that are built into the cost of goods. We actually have what resembles several VAT taxes but implementation of 9-9-9 would kill those taxes in liu of visible taxes that all can comprehend. I ran my numbers last night and I would pay $8300 less federal tax/year under 9-9-9 than I pay right now. And I assumed that I buy 100% new goods, nothing used. Find a calculator and run your numbers. You might be surprised.


40 posted on 10/19/2011 10:12:45 AM PDT by lwoodham (There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.)
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To: sickoflibs

You are part of the lineman push, helping to get the ball carrier over the defensive wall and into the end zone!


41 posted on 10/19/2011 10:13:10 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: sickoflibs

Btw, do you think those guys will be along shortly?

:)


42 posted on 10/19/2011 10:14:19 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: sickoflibs

Also, now that you have posted it, we can crosslink this as appropriate as this issue comes up again. (It will.)


43 posted on 10/19/2011 10:15:23 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: Wurlitzer
RE :"Seems the tea party may be losing momentum after months of body blows by the media and politicians on both sides of the aisle."

One of the things I easily predicted HERE last summer 2010 is that if Boehner takes the House from Pelosi the Tea Party will lose some momentum and energy and the other side will gain it in opposition as you see now.

Similarly I posted ~ April 2008 that Obama would win the election and become very unpopular fast in 2009. There is a certain natural dynamics to politics much like a run up in prices in an economy, then a crash.

44 posted on 10/19/2011 10:16:41 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Cain :"My parents didn't raise me to beg the government for other peoples money")
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To: sickoflibs

That’s how I was reading it. ;-)


45 posted on 10/19/2011 10:19:19 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: fightinJAG

Well, I disagree that there is any subjectivity or difficulty in determining “value-added”.

A business simply charges it’s customers a percentage of the price of the product it sells, and subtracts the VAT taxes it has paid in making the product (which are just a percentage of the cost of the goods it purchased to make the product). The difference is remitted to the government.


46 posted on 10/19/2011 10:20:05 AM PDT by Royal Wulff
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*LOOKIN' FOR MORE MONTHLY DONORS*



Click Here To Support Free Republic

*Thank You To All Donors*

47 posted on 10/19/2011 10:23:12 AM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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To: Royal Wulff

You may be right about that.

My experience with VAT, such as it is, was in Europe.

Anyway, I think we agree that the 999 plan does away with embedded taxes in the price of goods?


48 posted on 10/19/2011 10:23:48 AM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG; Royal Wulff
Perhaps it will help if we define the terms

A value added tax or value-added tax (VAT) is a form of consumption tax. From the perspective of the buyer, it is a tax on the purchase price. From that of the seller, it is a tax only on the "value added" to a product, material or service, from an accounting point of view, by this stage of its manufacture or distribution. The manufacturer remits to the government the difference between these two amounts, and retains the rest for themselves to offset the taxes they had previously paid on the inputs.

The "value added" to a product by a business is the sale price charged to its customer, minus the cost of materials and other taxable inputs. A VAT is like a sales tax in that ultimately only the end consumer is taxed. It differs from the sales tax in that, with the latter, the tax is collected and remitted to the government only once, at the point of purchase by the end consumer. With the VAT, collections, remittances to the government, and credits for taxes already paid occur each time a business in the supply chain purchases products.

49 posted on 10/19/2011 10:33:44 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: fightinJAG
I'm just learning about it myself. The Wikipedia page on VAT has an interesting analysis that shows that the effect of a sales tax and a VAT are identical in terms of revenue raised and gross margins for the businesses in the chain.

The difference is in the incentives that a sales tax provides for people to cheat, and the additional paperwork required to keep track of VAT taxes paid.

But, all other things equal, a sales tax and a VAT tax, at the same rate, would produce the same tax revenue and the same gross margins.

I agree about the hidden taxes being removed.

And I like the incentive that a sales tax provides consumers to save money (for investment or retirement) instead of spending it.

50 posted on 10/19/2011 10:34:56 AM PDT by Royal Wulff
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