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No Firearms Training = No God Given Rights in Wisconsin
Ammoland ^ | 19 October, 2011 | Corey Graff, Wisconsin Gun Owners

Posted on 10/20/2011 4:15:02 AM PDT by marktwain

Wisconsin --(Ammoland.com)- A single mom. Two kids in the backseat. Grocery shopping went fine, but the man approaching their car has a gun and is about to turn the parking lot into a scene straight from hell.

Thankfully mom has a gun.

Wait a minute, no she doesn’t.

She doesn’t have the gun … because according to State Rep. Garey Bies and a small group of self-righteous elitist do-gooders in the gun community she doesn’t have … “enough training.” Too late.

Many gun owners talk a good game about concealed carry training and boast endlessly about what they want to impose on others.

These self-appointed gun experts have unknowingly adopted the arguments of the gun control crowd. You know, if we don’t shackle ourselves with more regulations, bad things will happen if guns are involved.

Sound familiar? (Straight out of Sarah Brady’s playbook)? Wisconsin Rep. Garey Bies

Rep. Bies - The founding fathers: The right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Rep. Garey Bies: The right to bear arms shall be allowed when you complete the course we require.

But the number one rule of a gun fight is … bring a gun. And the Bies bill – aided and abetted by those who crow for more government-mandated training – will prevent many people from doing just that.

Let’s talk in practical terms. The harder it is to get a permit, the more good people who need to carry simply won’t (Prof. John Lott, Ph.D. proved this empirically in his book More Guns, Less Crime).

You and I fought for Constitutional Carry because it was the only way to ensure that our right to bear arms was not held to the whims of the politicians in Madison.

Those whims are coming to a head.

Remember back in May when I informed you that Representative Garey Bies tried to suppress the testimony of supporters of Constitutional Carry at the Madison concealed carry hearing?

Now Rep. Bies is trying to increase the regulation and requirements to get a concealed carry permit.

Rep. Bies is trying to move us further into government regulation of your Second Amendment rights.

He has said he will introduce a bill later this month that will require at least eight hours of training to get a concealed-weapons permit.

Let me be clear: This is not about training. That’s how the big-government neocons, cowering at the feet of leftist anti-gunners, have framed the issue.

This is about more gun regulation, more government-mandated hoops, designed to keep raising the bar needed to “earn” the right to bear arms: something the founding fathers believed was an inalienable right.

What these regulations really do, in practical terms, is disarm good people … leaving them defenseless.

Some people urgently need access to a firearm – there are many cases of single moms being stalked by abusive ex-husbands, for example – who don’t have 8 hours to spare.

They don’t have 8 minutes to spare. Eight seconds would be pushing it in some cases. They need a gun for self-defense and they need it right now.

Are you prepared to tell them they’re not “ready” to defend themselves because they don’t have “enough” training? I’m sure not.

ACTION:

1. E-mail Representative Garey Bies letting him know what you think of his plan to impose new regulatory burdens upon Badger State gun owners.

2. Contribute something to this lobbying campaign so we can effectively stop this thinly-disguised push for gun control. Please do what you can.

In Liberty, Corey Graff Executive Director

About:

WGO works for grassroots gun owners, not politicians. While many gun lobbies fight for “reasonable gun control,” WGO sets a higher standard: Defining the terrain of pro-gun political battle. Sure, many groups claim they’re “pro-gun” – all the while they provide cover for anti-gun deals cut by politicians – but only WGO truly informs gun owners, remaining committed to a 100% pro-gun position. We oppose all gun control – regardless of the political party – and work tirelessly to restore the Second Amendment. Visit www.wisconsingunowners.org


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: banglist; ccw; legislation; wi
I do not think this bill will get very far. The new CCW law goes into effect on November 1, in 12 days. Once the law has been in effect for a few months, there will be no going back.

I expect some firearms instructors are pushing this law for commercial gain.

1 posted on 10/20/2011 4:15:06 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Gun training?? Criminals apparently need no training. Hell, it’s the original point and click...what’s so hard about that??


2 posted on 10/20/2011 4:16:47 AM PDT by WKUHilltopper (And yet...we continue to tolerate this crap...)
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To: WKUHilltopper
Gun training?? Criminals apparently need no training. Hell, it’s the original point and click...what’s so hard about that??

I shoot about 500 rds a month. I compete in IDPA pistol defense shoots. And if I get shot, it will likely be by a criminal that has fired less than 10 rds in their life.

You are correct. Firearms are point and shoot, not rocket science. Within 10' it all comes down to a willingness to pull the trigger.

3 posted on 10/20/2011 4:47:07 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: marktwain
Well ..... some 'training' can be ... uh ... useful.
For instance, if you have a Revolver gun thingy, you may not know how to open that 'round do-hickey' where those bullet thingys go into. Or are they cartridges? Oh, never mind.. that's too technical. Anywho, even if you figure out on your own how to open 'it' by yourself -- don't try that at home children -- then you're faced the the question of ... Which end of the bullet gizmo do I put them in? The front or back? That's a real dilemma for first-timer idiot gun owners, and all liberals.

And if your first gun is an 'Automatic' ... HOLY CRAP! STOP! You will kill yourself. They are way too complicated for anyone except 'Trained Law Enforcement Personnel'. They have 'clips' and 'magazines' and 'slides' and 'safeties', or grip safeties, or other 'double safeties', and 'loaded chamber indicators' and ... well .. you see what I mean. Just fugetaboutit. Even with 'Training' those are way too complicated for anyone who didn't go to MIT, or ... become a Jail Guard. You'll kill yourself before you open your first box of ammunition. Aka: 'Bullets'.


4 posted on 10/20/2011 4:47:25 AM PDT by Condor51 (Yo Hoffa, so you want to 'take out conservatives'. Well okay Jr - I'm your Huckleberry)
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To: marktwain

The reason they are called “belly guns” is that they are usually pressed against the bad guy’s belly when they are fired.
“Training” and “accuracy” are not factors, here.


5 posted on 10/20/2011 4:50:14 AM PDT by Flintlock (Photo ID for all voters--let our dead rest in peace.)
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To: Flintlock

Are there course requirements now ? Ct’s course requirements aren’t too bad. It usually lasts about 2 hours, 4 if the class is full of stupid people.


6 posted on 10/20/2011 5:03:06 AM PDT by Celerity
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To: SampleMan
Within 10' it all comes down to a willingness to pull the trigger.

The majority of armed self defense encounters will occur in under 10' of distance.

Business robberies will occur across the distance of a counter. Street attacks will generally occur at arm's-reach distances where the winner will be the one who shoots first.

Training could be boiled down to a pamphlet which says "If you (or an innocent under your protection) are not in danger of death or serious injury, do not draw your gun."

Having more CCWs on the street is a greater social good than having fewer CCWs, even if the fewer have been to class.

7 posted on 10/20/2011 5:11:36 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Oklahoma requires ab 8 hr. course for CCW and while I understand the concerns about requiring it I am glad that I went through it. As a lifetime gun owner most of the gun safety stuff was just review for me, but I learned a lot about what my rights and responsibilities were when carrying.

There is a lot more to it than just buying a gun, loading it and putting it in your pocket. Many think it makes them into a vigilante and nothing could be further than the truth.


8 posted on 10/20/2011 5:29:43 AM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: Okieshooter
Oklahoma requires ab 8 hr. course for CCW and while I understand the concerns about requiring it I am glad that I went through it. As a lifetime gun owner most of the gun safety stuff was just review for me, but I learned a lot about what my rights and responsibilities were when carrying.

Pennsylvania does not require any sort of training. I've gone through over 100 classroom hours of formal training over the years, in addition to hundreds of hours of range time. The assumption is that, unless training is mandatory, that people will not get training.

My objection is for government making training a prerequisite for CCW.

9 posted on 10/20/2011 5:37:25 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: Condor51
Well ..... some 'training' can be ... uh ... useful.

Useful and fun. However, all a person actually must know about a double-action revolver is to point the muzzle at the target and pull the trigger until it goes bang.

Like I said, I practice as much as I can, and shoot IDPA, but I know that most gun fights don't require reloading, shooting on the run, taking on 5 bad guys, etc.

We who enjoy firearms like to think of them and our knowledge of them as special and nuanced, but the truth is that guns are utilitarian in nature.

I think of it like this. It is useful to have experience and practice changing flat tires, but when you are out in the wilderness with a flat, it is CRITICAL that you actually have a spare tire and a jack. Along those lines, it is stupid to require people to practice changing tires before they are legally allowed to have a spare tire and jack in their vehicle.

10 posted on 10/20/2011 5:39:21 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Okieshooter
I went and looked up what news articles there were for Wisconsin CCW. Over here is an article about a local police dept holding classes over the next few weekends. The upside is the class is held by the police dept, so I'm thinking you could submit your paperwork on the day of the class. The downside is that the class is limited to 15 people "first come, first served". We'll see if that produces a bottleneck.

The other downside is the $100 charge for training, on top of the $50 CCW application fee.

11 posted on 10/20/2011 5:50:29 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: marktwain

does my training in the Army count?


12 posted on 10/20/2011 5:53:07 AM PDT by jrd
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To: PapaBear3625
I've had a CCW since the 70s and in my first few years I wondered what would happen if I tried to shoot through a closed window in my car.

I knew a guy with an auto junk yard, and paid him to be allowed to shoot through some windows.

With protective face gear and ear plugs, I sat in a junker and fired out through the windows, and it was OK but even with ear plugs, the noise was deafening.

If required to save my life, I'd shoot with the windows up, but given any choice at least one would be down.

Training is not required to shoot within 10', but the will to pull the trigger with a human being in the sights, is not just a "point and click" and if you pull it, you better use it.

13 posted on 10/20/2011 6:02:21 AM PDT by USS Alaska
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To: Okieshooter
Oklahoma requires ab 8 hr. course for CCW and while I understand the concerns about requiring it I am glad that I went through it. As a lifetime gun owner most of the gun safety stuff was just review for me, but I learned a lot about what my rights and responsibilities were when carrying.

I had a permit in PA with no training, and a permit in another state that accepted demonstration of training in lieu of having to go to the course. To get a permit where I currently live, I had to go through $125 worth of the most incompetent drivel I've heard from any "trainer."

Lines from the "trainer" like: "A .380 glaser is so powerful that it will blow the arm clean off the bad guy if you hit him in the shoulder."

and "In my opinion, Bersa makes one of the finest firearms on the planet. It's good that not too many people know that or they'd cost more."

And then the trainer covered me twice with said loaded .380 Bersa that he had whipped out of his concealed carry holster so that he could show it to the girl in the tight afghan sweater.

Also, they explained the law incorrectly and the legal section of the class devolved into stupid "what if's". 8 hours of my life I will never get back.

Training is good. Mandatory state training is bad. Mandating it won't make it better, and won't educate people who view the training only as an obstacle they have to get through in order to get a permit.

14 posted on 10/20/2011 6:05:06 AM PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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To: Condor51
Nice ridiculously hyperbolic example.

And the income tax was only supposed to be on a very few people and 1%-2% max. Why do you assume that once you submit, the rules will not change - and they most surely will?

15 posted on 10/20/2011 6:10:05 AM PDT by Dick Tater
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To: SampleMan

No shlt. At ten feet, my aim is pretty good even without my glasses.

Still, anyone who refuses to be trained and screw up should have the book thrown at them. A few hours training isn’t the end of the world. If something is important to you, you make the time.
The claim about single mothers is not more valid than the claims about voter id laws stealing the right to vote. Everyone on FR tends to think id laws are great, and voting is the most fundamental right well have.


16 posted on 10/20/2011 6:11:26 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: marktwain
I expect some firearms instructors are pushing this law for commercial gain.

Bingo. I know a bunch of them.

17 posted on 10/20/2011 6:19:20 AM PDT by facedown (Armed in the Heartland)
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To: marktwain

All the firearms training that’s going to stick can be accomplished in five minutes by the seller when the gun is picked up.

You just can’t teach common sense, like “hey don’t point that muzzle at me just because your chubby little fingers don’t have the strength to pull the slide back far enough to ensure that it goes into battery!” Seen it.


18 posted on 10/20/2011 6:20:55 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: FateAmenableToChange

I had to go through $125 worth of the most incompetent drivel I’ve heard from any “trainer.”


I recall the trainer in NV trying to convince Mrs. B. that it would be unlawful to use a gun to prevent being raped.

I’ve had trainers say that it is absolutely immoral and wrong to leave your house with any gun not properly locked up. It would take forever if I did that!


19 posted on 10/20/2011 6:21:06 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: marktwain

Aside from the kind of safety training that one can condense to a postcard, what’s more important than training is PRACTICE.


20 posted on 10/20/2011 6:32:43 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: marktwain

or how bout required training within 3-6 months AFTER you recieve your CCW or your license is suspended until you receive the training?

just throwing it out there folks.


21 posted on 10/20/2011 6:34:27 AM PDT by Hammerhead
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To: marktwain

...or how bout the Gov. get out of my business and quit granting me their perceived ‘rights’.

yeh, that’s even better.


22 posted on 10/20/2011 6:36:21 AM PDT by Hammerhead
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To: LevinFan
Still, anyone who refuses to be trained and screw up should have the book thrown at them

So if they take the training and still screw up they should be let off the hook?

... and voting is the most fundamental right well have.

No, the most fundamental right we have is to life. Voting is a privilege granted by law, self defense (via bearing arms) is a right recognized by the constitution. Don't fall into the progressive fallacy that "common sense" gun laws offer protection from gun crime or gun accidents. All they do is impede gun ownership.

23 posted on 10/20/2011 6:41:21 AM PDT by conservonator
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To: jrd
does my training in the Army count?

I am not sure about the particular law but in many places, no. And with good reason because many of the critical bits of concealed carry have to do with when it is ok to draw and shoot. Army training does not cover muggers.
24 posted on 10/20/2011 7:13:02 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: TalonDJ

Not kidding. Army training is basically, if he’s the enemy, shoot his @ss and includes terms like insurance holes as you move past his body.


25 posted on 10/20/2011 8:46:52 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: conservonator
They impede gun ownership for the law abiding ...
26 posted on 10/20/2011 8:59:43 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: conservonator

I suppose you think they should also be sold in convenience stores like slurpies, next to the rocket launchers. no waiting period, no background check, nothing.
“here is your gun sir,” the clerk says to the man in the white jacket with extra long sleeves who calls himself napoleon.
don’t you tgink a few laws make a little sense?

You do know that at least as far back as the wild days, you couldn’t carry inside of town?


27 posted on 10/20/2011 9:17:45 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: LevinFan
(You do know that at least as far back as the wild days, you couldn’t carry inside of town?)

Where did you learn that from, Hollywood?

28 posted on 10/20/2011 9:26:26 AM PDT by Principle Over Politics (All rights are not created equal.)
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To: Principle Over Politics

No, history. Hollywood shows everyone packing. Being caught with a gun in many town got you fined. That’s what the OK Corral was about. The cowboys were carrying in town and the Eurps went to take the guns.

Don’t get me wrong, im for CC, but these people insisting on no training make gun owners look nuts and get innocent people killed.


29 posted on 10/20/2011 10:08:32 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: LevinFan
I suppose you think they should also be sold in convenience stores like slurpies, next to the rocket launchers. no waiting period, no background check, nothing. “here is your gun sir,” the clerk says to the man in the white jacket with extra long sleeves who calls himself napoleon. don’t you tgink a few laws make a little sense?

I have no problem with easing gun sales laws. Tell me, how have our current laws kept you safer than you were 80 years ago? Your nut in a straight jacket example is just the sort of hyperbole that progressives use to cow people into accepting their version of "safety" over liberty. Lets try this, if your insane you should be institutionalized, for your sake and everyone else. There goes your straw-man in a straight jacket.

I have lived with and around firearms my entire life, I have a permit to carry and I served in the Military and I can tell you with confidence that a two hour training course taught by a marginal competent instructor (which has been my experience) offers little in the way of improving competency and safety.

As far as the "wild days" what's your point? Maybe you missed This. How did those tough gun control laws work out for in Tombstone then how are they working in Chicago and D.C. today?

I fear laws far more than I fear guns.

30 posted on 10/20/2011 10:35:26 AM PDT by conservonator
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To: LevinFan

Sorry, but a responsible person knows to get training if they need it. Those people that are careless, will get their asses handed to them. What did people do in old western times? They were taught at a young age by their father, is what I’m guessing. If they weren’t then they were responsible enough to learn about them. As Harry Callahan said:
“A man has got to know his limitations”


31 posted on 10/20/2011 11:40:04 AM PDT by GunPkrBkr (I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six.)
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To: jrd; All

“does my training in the Army count?”

I would say that it does.

From the law:

2. Documentation that the individual participated in organized shooting
competitions or completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave
the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course
or program under subd. 1.

I would expectg that a DD214 would be sufficient, as a hunting safety course is deemed to be sufficient.


32 posted on 10/20/2011 6:16:00 PM PDT by marktwain (In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)
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To: marktwain

Pennsylvania has easy concealed carry (okay, it’s not Vermont, but it’s about as close as you can get): Walk into a sheriff’s office with about $25 plus proof of residency in your county and walk out in 20 minutes or so with your CC license, good for 5 years. No “gun training”, no reason for seeking a license other than self defense, no nonsense - - heck you don’t even need to own a gun. I urge all Pennsylvanians to go get their CC licenses as soon as possible. The sheriff’s office in Bucks County (at the Doylestown Courthouse) is very efficient and the folks there are courteous and professional. I’ve had my CC license for at least 20 years.


33 posted on 10/20/2011 6:28:47 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: LevinFan
I suppose you think they should also be sold in convenience stores like slurpies, next to the rocket launchers. no waiting period, no background check, nothing.

Ref: History of the United States 1776-1968.

34 posted on 10/21/2011 4:25:30 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: jrd
does my training in the Army count?

In WI, yes.

35 posted on 10/22/2011 11:00:14 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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