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Federal retirement plans almost as costly as Social Security
http://abcnews.com ^ | 10.2.11 | DENNIS CAUCHON

Posted on 10/24/2011 5:34:32 PM PDT by dragnet2

Retirement programs for former federal workers — civilian and military — are growing so fast they now face a multitrillion-dollar shortfall nearly as big as Social Security.

The federal government hasn't set aside money or created a revenue source similar to Social Security's payroll tax to help pay for the benefits, so the retirement costs must be paid every year through taxes and borrowing.

The government paid a record $268 billion in pension and health benefits last year to 10 million former civil servants, military personnel and their dependents, about $100 billion more than was paid a decade earlier after adjusting for inflation. And $7 billion more was deposited into tax-deferred accounts of current workers.

In addition, the federal government last year made more than a half-trillion dollars in future commitments, valued in 2010 dollars that will cost far more to pay in coming decades. Added last year:

$107 billion in retirement benefits accumulated by current workers.

$106 billion in new benefits granted to veterans. Retirement

More than $300 billion in the snowballing expense of previous retirement promises that have no source of funding.

The government committed more money to the 10 million former public servants last year than the $690 billion it paid to 54 million Social Security beneficiaries.

The retirement programs now have a $5.7 trillion unfunded liability, compared with a $6.5 trillion shortfall for Social Security.

Outgoing Defense Secretary Robert Gates told Congress in June in his final budget testimony that health care costs "are eating us alive."

Rep. Jim Cooper, D-Tenn., a member of the Armed Services Committee, says retirement benefits are an extremely sensitive issue. "We have a disconnect between all these sacred promises we've made and how they are not backed up by anything," he says.

(Excerpt) Read more at abcnews.go.com ...


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To: GlockThe Vote

As a federal retiree, I have to live frugally and watch my money. I am relieved to finally get a COLA after three years of no COLA. A pox on those who throw stones at us and want to decrease our medical and pension benefits. You did not do our jobs. Probably a lot of you thought our jobs were beneath you. Sorry you are not happy with your choices in life but you could have chosen differently and did not, so do not try to take my modest retirement from me or you will find the entire federal and postal labor force will pull the Democratic lever and not care how many illegal alien trucks roll over the border.


51 posted on 10/24/2011 8:29:08 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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**FR could really use your help**
Please click the pic to donate what you can
**THANK YOU very much!**

52 posted on 10/24/2011 8:29:08 PM PDT by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: Ciexyz

LMFAO!!!! What do you think us slobs paying for you, working longer hours, making less money, with no pensions or lifetimes benes do!!!!

GMAFB!!!


53 posted on 10/24/2011 8:35:47 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: Our man in washington

If they are so good and valuable as many claim, surely they will be able to find gainful employment in the private sector.


54 posted on 10/24/2011 8:39:05 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: Ciexyz
Sorry you are not happy with your choices in life but you could have chosen differently and did not, so do not try to take my modest retirement from me or you will find the entire federal and postal labor force will pull the Democratic lever and not care how many illegal alien trucks roll over the border.

So while we watch our 401Ks dwindle and our own retirement plans disentegrate, we'll insure that yours remains intact, or you'll make sure our children end up living in a third world rat hole.

55 posted on 10/24/2011 8:39:30 PM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: Tribune7

These defined benefit plans are ponzi schemes.


56 posted on 10/24/2011 8:40:23 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: Our man in washington

Defined benefit pension plans should be banned from all government units. The principal-agent conflict is severe with the principal (taxpayer) separated from the agent by several levels and the agent having strong self interest to continue the benefits. It addition, government pension agencies engage in lobbying and misinformation to deliberately confuse taxpayers and legislators.


57 posted on 10/24/2011 8:41:29 PM PDT by businessprofessor
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To: reefdiver

Entitlement my ___, I paid cash for my social security insurance!!!! Just because they borrowed the money, doesn’t make my benefits some kind of charity or handout!!

AMEN AMEN AMEN TO THAT!


58 posted on 10/24/2011 8:50:24 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: muawiyah

When we encountered the ESOP, was when the company ended the traditional pension program and converted it to an ESOP. I think that the 401Ks came later, in the early eighties.


59 posted on 10/24/2011 9:13:22 PM PDT by Eva
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To: RetiredArmy
ANY PERSON OUT THERE THINKING OF A MILITARY CAREER, THINK AGAIN! Just do your four years, LEARN a skill that can get you employment on the outside and WALK. You CANNOT TRUST the government to keep any promises to you what you might have in 20 years. Oh, wait, they are wanting to do away with the 20 year retirement. You have to set up a 401k plan now.

It's unfortunate, but true. I've had this talk with my son (in the Marines) and my daughter (Air Force). My son had never really planned on reenlisting when his time is up anyways, probably due in large part to our experiences as well as those of his relatives in the military, as well as his own experiences. He's already considering colleges to attend. My daughter plans on sticking it out for as long as possible, but she's a damn fine pilot, has a solid career going, and always has the possibility of entering the private sector as an airline pilot.

In my daughter's case, it makes sense to stick around for a while and see how things are headed 10 years down the road. That option to become an airline pilot is a lot better option than a lot of those leaving the military.
60 posted on 10/24/2011 9:38:26 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: dragnet2

The current federal retirement is SS., which replaced FERS


61 posted on 10/24/2011 9:47:40 PM PDT by gunner03
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To: RetiredArmy

It really ticks me off. We stayed for the benefits. Desert Storm destroyed my husband’s sense of smell, I lost a baby after the war when I returned to the ME. Not sure if I would have lost it otherwise. 9 women lost their babies at the same time and rumor had it local women were miscarrying as well. Maybe the fires, I don’t know. We sacrificed so much and this is what we get. First in line to get screwed.


62 posted on 10/24/2011 9:49:05 PM PDT by imskylark
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To: dragnet2

This is robbery, pure and simple and we will end it soon.


63 posted on 10/24/2011 9:49:41 PM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo with laughter")
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To: Ciexyz
As a federal retiree...A pox on those who throw stones at us and want to decrease our medical and pension benefits.

lol...

64 posted on 10/24/2011 11:28:34 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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Comment #65 Removed by Moderator

To: KitJ

If you actually read my post you would recognize that I did not in any way disparage the contributions of the military nor attempt to equate the jobs of civilian workers with the military. There was also no intent to imply anyone who served is not deserving of their pay and benefits. I merely shared my observations about some of the trends going on in this world that may be resulting in our Congress reneging on our nation ‘s commitments to its veterans.

By speaking of my own experience in the business world I’m illustrating a point that our governing elites are breaking contracts with individuals in all segments of our society at the same time they choose to award undeserved benefits on favored groups and individuals. The pie is shrinking and the politicians and business leaders are choosing to cut back on obligations to people who contributed in the past in order to win the approval of younger people who may or in some cases may not produce in the present. It is not right to cut military benefits nor is it right for a private equity company to deliberately take a viable company through a structured bankruptcy so its pension plan assets can be liquidated leaving its retrees without their pensions while the bankers and owners make millions in bonuses.

In my opinion America is changing and not for the better. I may not have served my country in the armed forces but I have worked in the private sector economy for over 3 decades. I do know that part of our country’s strength is a healthy and growing private sector and I’m appalled by the policies of our political leaders which are destroying our free enterprise system from within. I’m also disgusted these same politicians line their pockets while sending our armed forces around the world to fight and die supporting third world dictators in the name of defending freedom and then on the edge of “victory” pull the troops out leaving those we supposedly fought to save behind to face the horrors of despotism. These adventures waste the lives and limbs of our soldiers not to mention wasting the economic resources of the homeland. Meanwhile these same politicians leave our borders undefended and expose the citizens of border states daily to violence and death from the armed invaders. Our leaders do not honor either our military or the civilian citizens of our nation. Reducing pay and benefits is one dimension of this greater issue.

I’m very aware of the sacrifices military veterans make and the lives they lead. I may not have pulled the trigger on a gun but I have stood on a tarmac and watched my father be taken off a military aircraft on a stretcher to be put in an ambulance after spending three months in a overseas hospital being sewn back together and then spending the next four months going to the US base hospital everyday to watch he and others go through the pain and suffering of rehabilitation. Several years later I sat at his bedside after the tumor attributed to agent orange had been cut out of his head. I’ve listened at night while he screamed at the nightmares of the horrors he and his fellow soldiers experienced. To this day I watch him limp from the shrapnel still buried in his legs and against his spinal chord. I have not experienced what he experienced firsthand but I do understand better than most civilians the consequences our foreign entanglements have on the lives of service people and their families.

I do know my father would never call any of the civilians he voluntarily served to protect in 2 wars a maggot, a pissant, worm food, or dingleberry. To do so would disrespect the people and flag he volunteered to defend. He loves his country, is proud to have served and sacrificed. He respects the rights of every citizen, even the peace demonstrators of the 1960’s who jeered at him while he proudly wore the uniform in public in or nation’s capital. He knows there is no honor in disparaging the people he volunteered to serve no matter what they say to him.

My father is an officer, a gentleman and a humble Christian. I’m incredibly proud and eternally grateful for the sacrifices he and the other distinguished members of the armed services I’ve had the pleasure to know have made for my family and our country. I don’t know you so I cannot begin to judge your character. I do discern from the tone of your post and your name calling you are somehow different from the service people I personally know. I thank you for your service and appreciate everyday the freedoms you and others voluntarily, and in some cases involuntarily served to defend.


66 posted on 10/25/2011 2:57:19 AM PDT by Soul of the South (When times are tough the tough get going.)
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To: dragnet2

As I keep asking myself, what does the government have to do before people realize its broke, both financially and morally?


67 posted on 10/25/2011 3:25:59 AM PDT by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be purchased and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: Ciexyz

IBTZ


68 posted on 10/25/2011 3:47:41 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: napscoordinator

The Fed retiree leeches never even paid for their retirement - they paid ZERO social security and very little for their retirement plan, amazing that they were exempt from what the rest of us had to pay, isn’t it. Then, they get to retire much earlier and at a higher rate of pay than the rest of us. They should take any money they paid and put it all into the social security and let them live off of that.


69 posted on 10/25/2011 3:52:45 AM PDT by conservaterian (Sarah/DeMint '12-XXX= Now what? Cain?)
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To: gunner03

Social Security didn’t replace FERS under the Federal retirement system. FERS is the retirement system that replaced CSRS. FERS consists of Social Security and a 401K plan (called Thrift Savings Plan) to which the employee contributes and wherein the government matches a portion of the employee’s contributions.


70 posted on 10/25/2011 4:40:25 AM PDT by BooRadley
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To: conservaterian

I’m a Federal employee and don’t consider myself a leech, although I know of many that I would consider leeches. I am just as frustrated as you, but I can’t do a thing about it. I don’t understand why people insist on singling out Federal employees as lazy incompetents; probably because you only hear about the bad ones and then make a broad generalization about all Federal employees.

You lie when you say that “Fed retiree leeches never even paid for their retirement”. All Federal retirees pay a percentage of their gross earnings into the Civil Service Retirement System. You’re correct in that we CSRS employees paid ZERO social security. That was not an option for us, so how could we pay social security when we were requuired to contribute to a different retirement system? I didn’t make the rules about Federal retirement.

When I hired on with the Federal government, the retirement system wasn’t a consideration. My desire was to work in the private sector, but at the time, those jobs were scarce, so I took a job with the Federal government. Those of us who work for the Federal government and do a good job have nothing to feel guilty for. You should be directing your venom towards the Federal government for they way that they take Federal retirement contributions and SS contributions and spend them on other Federal programs instead of investing them to grow the funds.


71 posted on 10/25/2011 5:01:06 AM PDT by BooRadley
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To: RetiredArmy

...You CANNOT TRUST the government to keep any promises...”

You are absolutely correct and it’s been going on for a longer than most folks realize; Just ask the Sioux nation.

Politicians are for the most part useless lawyers that couldn’t make it in the real world of lawyerdom. They are, in essence, the lowest of the low. Literally bottom dwellers and crooks. In order to feel good about themselves, they have to exert control and power over those that cannot, or will not, do anything about it. Politics is the perfect answer for them. In politics, they can lie, cheat, steal, even murder, with impunity while making the rest of us in the country suffer for it. Then, they smile, pat each other on the back for a job well done and run for re-election. Despicable creatures to say the least. Their promises are just hollow words.


72 posted on 10/25/2011 5:14:11 AM PDT by lgjhn23
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To: xzins

Good Points, all. The The liberal politicians and bureaucrats are destroying the financial health of this nation. I just wonder when the anvil will fall on America.

Concerning Ron Paul: Libertarians don’t believe in the military. Yet, they lock their cars and homes. They don’t make sense.


73 posted on 10/25/2011 5:23:57 AM PDT by Loud Mime (Religion involves an ethical life, not just kissing up to the Big Guy.)
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To: conservaterian

This is no longer true. Fed employees contribute to SS, have a 401k equivalent plan, and a 1% pension. This has been so since the 1980s.


74 posted on 10/25/2011 5:50:12 AM PDT by Marie Antoinette (Proud Clinton-hater since 1998.)
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To: xzins
I have no doubt that many government workers are honorable and work very hard. That, however, does not mean their jobs are necessary.

"It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and careful planning are required to waste this much money."

- P. J. O'Rourke

75 posted on 10/25/2011 6:17:36 AM PDT by ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas (Budget sins can be fixed. Amnesty is irreversible.)
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To: ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas

Great quote. Thanks.


76 posted on 10/25/2011 6:22:26 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: reefdiver
I actually went through the calculations for this, using my real contributions (plus employer's) and real long-term Treasury Bond rates.

For each year, I used the average yield for the longest-term Treasury bond that was available then (usually, 30 years). I simplified it by assuming that my Social Security contributions were invested in that bond at the end of the calendar year.

Each year, I took all the dividends from the bonds I had bought the previous years, and combined it with my contributions and invested them in a new Treasury bond at the average rate for that year.

In just a bit less than 40 years of working, I would have about $800,000 in the bank right now. That's not theoretical: it's historical, based on what is allegedly being done with excess Social Security contribution: invested in long-term bonds.

If I hold the existing bonds to maturity, and continue to purchase bonds at the existing (albeit low) yields, I'd have $1,600,000 at my full retirement age, and $1,850,000 at age 70 if I wait until then to start withdrawing (I have other assets and income I could draw down before then).

Plug that data into www.immediateannuities.com, and you would have lifetime guaranteed income of $13,042/month. Keep in mind that it would be a fixed amount, with no CPI adjustment.

By comparison, Social Security promises to pay me about $5,000 a month, if I wait until age 70 and inflation averages about 3%/year. There won't be enough money to do so, but that's another issue....

But, let's do a direct comparison: at 3%/year inflation after I turn age 70, I'd have to live to age 112 before my inflation-adjusted Social Security benefits would even match the annuity payment. I'd have to live until age 174 in order for the value of the Social Security benefits to exceed the value of the annuity payments.

77 posted on 10/25/2011 9:43:01 AM PDT by justlurking (The only remedy for a bad guy with a gun is a good WOMAN (Sgt. Kimberly Munley) with a gun)
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To: BooRadley

You’re right, of course. Senior moment, I guess.


78 posted on 10/25/2011 10:01:27 AM PDT by gunner03
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To: Soul of the South

Sir,

I owe you an apology. Lately, I am overly sensitive to comparisons between military service and civilian employment. Your post is a helpful comparison. My attack on you was completely uncalled for. The tone, content and name-calling on my part was completely unwarranted. You are a gentlemen.

I am sorry and ask you to accept my apology.


79 posted on 10/25/2011 10:47:01 AM PDT by KitJ (Shall not be infringed)
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To: dragnet2

What do think the bailout of 08 and Phoney-Care is about all along?

And where do you think they park these pensions?


80 posted on 10/25/2011 10:55:14 AM PDT by Varsity Flight
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To: Lurker
Thanks Lurker. I did it because it was what I had always wanted to do. Back when I was a kid, in the 50s & 60s, we all played cowboys and indians or “army” in the woods behind our homes. I grew up wanting to be a soldier, in the military. It was what I wanted to do. Plus, that was in the years right after WWII and I knew many WWII vets and my dad was. But, as the years went along, I got to the point that I knew we were going to get screwed. Even back in the late 1980s, I told some guys that one day all we would have left was the pay check, IF we were lucky enough to hold on to that. I watched, too late in a career to quit, that we were getting screwed. The more it happened, the more my disgust for the government grew. While I LOVE my country, America, I would not give you a plug nickle for the entire US government. While they cut all ours, theirs continue to grow, grow, grow.
81 posted on 10/25/2011 11:14:03 AM PDT by RetiredArmy (As the End Times draws near, remember the Bible WARNED of these times. Be ready!)
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To: conservaterian
It's not just the feds destroying the private sector and the entire economy.

I know of cops, who retire at 50, and are now making $75,000+ per year in tax paid retirement for the rest of their lives, this includes top shelf, tax paid medical benefits for not only the government retiree, but their wives.

Now the cities and counties are all going broke as the U.S.

Wait until all this goes belly up.

82 posted on 10/25/2011 12:58:39 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

Bingo - the public sector is eating the private sector alive and there is simply not enough workers to cover promises that should never have been made in the first place.

Either these public sector maddoffs take a haircut or they should get nothing at all.

These leeches have no clue how good they have it.


83 posted on 10/25/2011 1:03:51 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: Varsity Flight
And where do you think they park these pensions?

They parked them right on top of the tax payers, who if they still have jobs, are making about *half* the income of what government retirees are collecting in bloated tax paid retirement pensions.

This is all going to hit the wall hard.

84 posted on 10/25/2011 1:06:49 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: justlurking

Good post.

SS, Medicare, and the entire US Govt is little more than a ponzi scam.


85 posted on 10/25/2011 1:12:50 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: KitJ

We all have our moments. No apology required. You and I are both Americans with a passion for liberty and great concern about our country’s future.

Have a great day! God bless you and your family.


86 posted on 10/25/2011 1:13:36 PM PDT by Soul of the South (When times are tough the tough get going.)
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To: GlockThe Vote
Bingo - the public sector is eating the private sector alive and there is simply not enough workers to cover promises that should never have been made in the first place.

I never promised them anything.

They are literally dragging the entire country down, so they can retire at 50, with lottery style pensions. This is crippling our economy, no joke.

And all this, while the private sectors wages have been stagnant for a decade, and now most private sector folks have had their hours slashed, taken pay cuts, benefits medical insurance cut or reduced to near worthlessness...If they still have jobs, all while the cost of everything has nearly tripled...

This will is going to get really ugly. Bet the rent.

87 posted on 10/25/2011 1:14:32 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

I have a friend who is a cop who I got in a huge argument with over this.

He will retire at 45 Y/o w a pension of oabout 90k a year for life, plus medical, so say that at least 110k since his whole familiy is covered.

This is after 20 years.

I asked him how much after tax income he would need to put away over 20 years for an annutiy company to give him that type of income for life.

He simply could not grasp what i was telling him.

Same goes for teachers.

I have so little patience for people who work for the govt and cry like B^&$$ over this.

Most Wall Street Execs donty even get deals like that.


88 posted on 10/25/2011 1:25:52 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: GlockThe Vote
He will retire at 45 Y/o w a pension of about 90k a year for life, plus medical, so say that at least 110k since his whole family is covered. This is after 20 years. I asked him how much after tax income he would need to put away over 20 years for an annuity company to give him that type of income for life. He simply could not grasp what i was telling him. Same goes for teachers.

This is quite common and the reason the private sector is becoming extremely angry.

Eventually the lid will blow off.

89 posted on 10/25/2011 2:25:50 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

I simply don’t see any mathmatical forumla to where this can possibly work out.

I’m not kidding - and to boot - most of these pension scams assume 8% rate of return on the DOW compounded!

let that sink in after 10 years of zero growth!


90 posted on 10/25/2011 2:29:44 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: GlockThe Vote

I seeing visions of government employee union bosses handing out clubs to fend off the beaten down, pissed off private sector.

Did ya know there are now more unionized government employees than those in the private sector?


91 posted on 10/25/2011 2:43:18 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

The problem is that in many areas the property taxes are exploding to cover these criminal level costs making the homes unmarketable and simply unsellable.

Its outrageous and I look at govt workers refusing to curtail these abuses no different than I do robbers and burglars.

They are robbing us blind with demands and benes that are simply madoffian.


92 posted on 10/25/2011 2:45:31 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: GlockThe Vote

They have their tax paid salaries, pensions and benefits, and they have no desire to have it taken away. You can tell who the government employees are, for the most part they’re the ones in the neighborhood who are still buying new cars, adding on to their homes, purchasing newer homes etc, while those in the private sector are just struggling to pay their monthly mortgages, if they still have homes, jobs etc.


93 posted on 10/25/2011 2:58:22 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

Do you live in Yonkers NY by any chance? You describe my neighborhood perfectly.

Every cop and firemen has a new BMW or mercedez - adding additions on houses, etc, all while the rest of everyone is getting killed.

People even in their young 30’s have no hope over owning a home considering the 10k a year taxes on every home to pay for these thieves and are usually forced to move away.

I hear all this “first responders” nonsense and want to puke.


94 posted on 10/25/2011 3:15:07 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: GlockThe Vote
Every cop and firemen has a new BMW or mercedez - adding additions on houses, etc, all while the rest of everyone is getting killed. People even in their young 30’s have no hope over owning a home considering the 10k a year taxes on every home to pay for these thieves and are usually forced to move away.

Yep...The old public servant class have become the public protected class, complete with government union mob bosses.

Who would have ever thought, government would demand $10,000 a year, for tax on a home? Then throw in all the other concocted government taxes.

Out of control does not begin to describe this travesty and betrayal.

95 posted on 10/25/2011 3:56:56 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: GlockThe Vote
This part just bends the brain...

----------------------------------------------

More than $300 billion in the snowballing expense of previous retirement promises that have no source of funding.

The government committed more money to the 10 million former public servants last year than the $690 billion it paid to 54 million Social Security beneficiaries.

96 posted on 10/25/2011 4:08:34 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

There are FAR more folks on Social Security and private pensions / 401ks than there are public retirees.

So as the crushing debts come due, a majority of voters will logically vote to make the “adjustments” on the public side.


97 posted on 10/25/2011 4:20:20 PM PDT by nascarnation (DEFEAT BARAQ 2012 DEPORT BARAQ 2013)
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To: nascarnation

The government committed more money to the 10 million former public servants last year than the $690 billion it paid to 54 million Social Security beneficiaries.

I keep reading this....more money to 10 million government retirees, than 54 million on Social Security. So what are the government retirees costing us?

A trillion a year?


98 posted on 10/25/2011 5:24:59 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

Just who the hell do these madoffs think is going to pay for all of this?


99 posted on 10/25/2011 5:40:25 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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100 posted on 10/25/2011 6:09:23 PM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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