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Fundamental Tax Reform Is Now Unstoppable
Forbes ^ | Oct. 26, 2011 | Louis Woodhill

Posted on 10/28/2011 9:54:33 PM PDT by fightinJAG

With Rick Perry’s call for a 20% Flat Tax, the movement for fundamental, pro-growth tax reform became unstoppable. Perry, Herman Cain, and Mitt Romney are now the only viable candidates for the Republican presidential nomination remaining. With both Cain and Perry now offering dramatic pro-growth tax reform proposals, Romney will either jump on the tax reform bandwagon or be left in the dust (or possibly both).

The only pro-growth tax cuts in Romney’s 59-point economic plan are a reduction in the corporate income tax rate to 25% (from 35% today) and the elimination of the death tax. However, both Perry and Cain are similarly calling for repeal of the death tax. Also, Perry’s plan would cut the corporate income tax rate to 20%, and Cain’s plan would reduce it to the equivalent of 9%.

(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 999; cain; election2012; flattax; hermancain; occupywallstreet; perry; rickperry; romney; taxes; taxreform
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1 posted on 10/28/2011 9:54:36 PM PDT by fightinJAG
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To: fightinJAG

Anytime I hear a pundit giving yet another reason why Romney won’t get the nomination, I like it.


2 posted on 10/28/2011 9:55:52 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG
With 75% of Americans saying that the country is “on the wrong track”, Progressives have started to pin their hopes for the 2012 elections on the notion that the American people don’t want pro-growth tax cuts, and would instead prefer to punish “the rich” via tax increases.

This is indeed the fundamental question of 2012: do we want pro-growth tax cuts or tax increases to "punish the rich"?

3 posted on 10/28/2011 9:57:36 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG

Considering the power and influence the IRS has, I doubt any reform will happen.


4 posted on 10/28/2011 9:57:37 PM PDT by doc1019 (If Romney is our choice, I refuse to vote.)
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To: doc1019

Read the article, if you haven’t yet, and see what you think. The author lays out why he thinks tax reform is inevitable and responds to many of the usual criticisms about how voters are said to react to Perry and Cain’s plans.


5 posted on 10/28/2011 9:59:17 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG

how long then do you think, before ole Flip Flop Willard comes out with a Flat Tax plan of his own?


6 posted on 10/28/2011 10:00:24 PM PDT by bigbob
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To: fightinJAG
Under current circumstances, it will do Progressives no good to point out flaws in Cain’s 9-9-9 program, or in Perry’s Flat Tax plan. The voters know that major tax reform would have to be enacted by Congress, and that the problems and inequities of any outline would be ironed out during the legislative process. They also realize that by the time that the crucial details of fundamental tax reform would be decided, a new president would have had another 15 months to refine his proposal.

Word!

This is one reason the pessimism that is seen rather often around here really isn't necessary.

7 posted on 10/28/2011 10:01:18 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: doc1019; fightinJAG

Listen. The minute Zero convinces his base that all the evil Republicans and conservatives are going to take their earned income tax credit away, he gets THEM ALL to turn out and vote.

Let’s get zero out of here before we start alarming the parasites about what we’re going to do to them once we win.

No need to give zero ammo to people who stand to lose 2-5000 dollars in earned income credits. Talk tax later.


8 posted on 10/28/2011 10:03:29 PM PDT by txhurl (Did you want to talk or fish? Or feed the fish?)
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To: bigbob

Funny just thinking about it. There’s just about nothing he can do now that won’t make him look, well, ridiculous.

Saw a headline about how Romney’s supposedly going to “have a Mormon problem.” My first thought was: no, he’s not. For one thing, he’s not going to be around long enough to even think about having “a Mormon problem.”

Romney lost his chance when he came out with his 59-page plan. You don’t get a re-do on a 59-page plan - lol.


9 posted on 10/28/2011 10:03:33 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG
"Perry, Herman Cain, and Mitt Romney are now the only viable candidates for the Republican presidential nomination remaining."

This is simply not true, Newt is in the hunt too and his flat tax plan is only 15%.

10 posted on 10/28/2011 10:03:51 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: fightinJAG

Romney’s gonna have to flip/flop again?


11 posted on 10/28/2011 10:07:09 PM PDT by Rudder (The Main Stream Media is Our Enemy---get used to it.)
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To: txhurl

I hear ya, but I just don’t think we have the time for that kind of political tomfoolery.

Plus, I think the fact that the GOP is out there with a huge pro-economic-growth push (regardless of which plan you prefer) is giving people a lot of hope. Real hope. Not hopey-changey!

Obama has been telling the parasite class that the Republicans are going to take their checks and their foodstamps and make Grandma eat dog food and push Johnnie down the stairs FOREVER. I don’t see how him going back to that well again and again is going to get him anything. Besides, the people who believe that — or who might lose their EITC — are not the people voting GOP anyway.

So, again, I see your point. But I just don’t know that we really gain all that much by not just going for it.


12 posted on 10/28/2011 10:07:39 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG

And by rich they are talking about people whose taxable income is about $300,000 a year. A nice sum, but that includes ,many couples and of course small businesses. Dear Lord but they have such a magical understanding of what wealth is! Like it comes out of a bottle in the form of a genie.


13 posted on 10/28/2011 10:08:37 PM PDT by RobbyS (Back in Jefferson)
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To: jpsb

I agree with you that Newt can’t be totally ruled out. He’s polling better than Perry in some cases, if I’m not mistaken.

Regardless, he’s a fighter.

I wonder what he and Cain are going to talk about when they are hanging out together at the Lincoln-Douglas debate.


14 posted on 10/28/2011 10:09:54 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: doc1019
Considering the power and influence the IRS has, I doubt any reform will happen.

Doesn't matter. The IRS and the reigning taxocracy needs to be fought tooth and nail. No surrender.
15 posted on 10/28/2011 10:10:01 PM PDT by Utmost Certainty (Our Enemy, the State)
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To: Rudder

You don’t think he’ll mind, do you?


16 posted on 10/28/2011 10:10:44 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: RobbyS

And don’t get me started on Libs’ definition of a “job.”

Good grief. Just today I was thinking of emailing Thomas Sowell and asking him to write an essay on what actually constitutes a “job” in economic, as opposed to political, terms.


17 posted on 10/28/2011 10:12:37 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: Utmost Certainty

No argument here.


18 posted on 10/28/2011 10:12:49 PM PDT by doc1019 (If Romney is our choice, I refuse to vote.)
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To: doc1019
Considering the power and influence the IRS has, I doubt any reform will happen.

Millions of Americans -- maybe tens of millions -- are in debt to the IRS, which is worse that the worst loan shark that ever lived. They throw on enormous interest and penalties on top of whatever principle you might owe, and almost immediately double or triple the debt. Getting out from under the IRS is extremely difficult.

The problem is, all those millions of people in debt to the IRS only see their problem as an individual one for themselves. If it was possible for everyone to rise to a higher vantage point to see the magnitude of the problem, I suspect there would be a tax revolt of massive proportions.

The income tax was a horrible idea 100 years ago when it was in the process of being proposed, then ratified. But it was sold to the American people as something that would only tax the "robber barons" of the Guilded Age. The sales pitch was that average Americans would pay little to no taxes. That's laughable from our perspective, when the average person with income is paying upwards of 20 to 25 percent of their income to the feds, plus another chunk to their states (in most cases), counties and cities. Plus the feds double, triple and sometimes even quadruple tax every dollar. Anything they can say is "income" is taxed at every point it becomes a different type of "income."

That the American people meekly put up with this rape of their incomes to pay the ever rapacious maw of government is astonishing, and speaks to the tendency of most people to just go along to get along.

19 posted on 10/28/2011 10:13:53 PM PDT by Wolfstar
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To: Utmost Certainty; doc1019

If the present Fedzilla tax code goes away, so does — sooner rather than later — the IRS.

The Fedzilla tax code goes away under Cain’s 999 plan.

It remains indefinitely — and infinitely still susceptible to crony capitalism and other corrupt shenanigans — under the Perry plan. In fact, the Perry plan ADDS another tax code on top of the present one: the flat tax optional plan.

That is all.


20 posted on 10/28/2011 10:16:29 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG

Right on. 999 is infinitely better than the Perry Flat Tax.


21 posted on 10/28/2011 10:17:59 PM PDT by Utmost Certainty (Our Enemy, the State)
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To: Wolfstar

Everything has its tipping point and we are there as far as the present tax code is concerned.


22 posted on 10/28/2011 10:18:20 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: Utmost Certainty
So the author concluded as well, interestingly enough.

Also found this observation of his interesting:

Accordingly, what the electorate is listening for right now is the candidates’ level of commitment to major pro-growth economic policy reforms, and a sense of how they view the world and make decisions. The voters are not particularly concerned about the details of any particular plan, because they know that the plans being offered on the campaign trail are not what will emerge from Congress.

He goes on to make once criticism of how Cain is selling his plan presently, but says 999 is the fastest, biggest way to juice the economy.

Of course, I also like 999 because, unlike the Perry plan, it broadens the tax base, which is extremely critical at this point in history if we are to preserve our freedom.

23 posted on 10/28/2011 10:21:13 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG
Anytime I hear a pundit giving yet another reason why Romney won’t get the nomination, I like it.
Me too. Mittens would be Zero Lite if he were elected.
24 posted on 10/28/2011 10:22:22 PM PDT by wjcsux ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell)
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To: fightinJAG

The IRS, one of the largest bureaucracies in the US, will not go away without a struggle. They will relentlessly pursue all that they perceive as an enemy.


25 posted on 10/28/2011 10:22:28 PM PDT by doc1019 (If Romney is our choice, I refuse to vote.)
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To: doc1019

I understand the sentiment. But they’ll go away if they don’t get paid.


26 posted on 10/28/2011 10:23:40 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: wjcsux

So this guy says Mittens is likely going to go bust because he failed to realize this was the year for major tax reform.

Ya snooze, ya lose!


27 posted on 10/28/2011 10:25:03 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG
Of course, I also like 999 because, unlike the Perry plan, it broadens the tax base, which is extremely critical at this point in history if we are to preserve our freedom.
Exactly! We have a lot of bottom feeders (almost half the population) that aren't paying anything. Ihe Earned Income Tax Credit needs to be flushed down the crapper too.
28 posted on 10/28/2011 10:25:58 PM PDT by wjcsux ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell)
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To: doc1019

Exactly. The IRS won’t permit it.


29 posted on 10/28/2011 10:26:26 PM PDT by RIghtwardHo
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To: fightinJAG

But I just don’t know that we really gain all that much by not just going for it.


Oh, we need to be going for it. Just a little bit more under the radar. Taking it national (letting the LSM use it as a weapon against us) is pointless: business who would benefit from reform already know who stands where, and conservatives
discussing it are learning.

Just saying it’s a suicide platform if it appears to get real legs.

Probably just being overly cautious here... We need to get Johnny democrat excited about a new job first.


30 posted on 10/28/2011 10:26:26 PM PDT by txhurl (Did you want to talk or fish? Or feed the fish?)
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To: fightinJAG

I’m voting for any candidate who brings on Thomas Sowell to vouch for him. Lord, what a bright guy. But as he says saves, he found himself in the right place at the right time: In NYC when its schools were the best in the world. The liberals have ruined the public schools and tried to drive the Catholic schools out of business. Talk about the Taliban!


31 posted on 10/28/2011 10:28:14 PM PDT by RobbyS (Back in Jefferson)
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To: jpsb; All
This is simply not true, Newt is in the hunt too and his flat tax plan is only 15%.

I agree, but there are many FReepers who keep reminding us, ad nauseum: "Gingrich has too much baggage."

They sound like this guy:


32 posted on 10/28/2011 10:31:39 PM PDT by Cobra64 (Too many people are incapable of critical thinking. Common sense isn't common anymore.)
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To: txhurl

I agree with you there are political obstacles. Always will be to any kind of entitlement reform — and that’s really what Cain’s 999 plan is.

It addresses the fact that about 49% of our population is, by law, “entitled” to not pay any federal taxes.

Ironic, but, as I said, Obama and the Dems have already tried to “scare” these people so badly, for so long, that you have to wonder if people started telling them “oooohhh, the Republicans are going to make you pay taxes” if it would have any more effect than when they were lying about stuff.

I guess the real answer here is “too late.” The cat is out of the bag. Now we MUST take it to the house — the White House!


33 posted on 10/28/2011 10:34:46 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG

Tax reform is inevitable... I credit the T(axed) E(nough) A(lready) PARTY! Rock on TEA Party!


34 posted on 10/28/2011 10:34:49 PM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: wjcsux

This is why I say the Cain plan is not only tax reform, it’s also entitlement reform! It’s reforming the “I’m entitled to not pay taxes” handout.

Of course, it’s despicable then that people such as Michele Bachmann and other conservatives play the Libs’ tiny violin by wailing “it hurts the poor the most.”

Well, golly. How in the world will we ever pass ANY entitlement reform if people in our own party chime in on the most myopic canard ever, that “it hurts the poor the most”?

You know what helps the poor? What helps everyone else: freedom and pro-growth economic policies.


35 posted on 10/28/2011 10:38:31 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: Cobra64

My sense is there are very few who are basing their view of Gingrich and his chances *strictly* on his “baggage.”

I think it’s more that that that is all wrapped up with his tendency to be mercurial and to be so esoteric that he steps in it. As he did, inexplicably, with his mini-rant about Paul Ryan’s budget being “right-wing social engineering” and his initial tip-toeing about Obamacare and the individual mandate.

His positions probably could have been expressed in a way that was non-offensive to conservatives, but he didn’t go that route. It was just a reminded that a lot of times Gingrich has his head in the Ivory Tower and doesn’t pick up important clues from the conservative zeitgeist.

Could he come back? Sure.


36 posted on 10/28/2011 10:43:16 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: antceecee

YES! Now this is the kind of optimism I absolutely love.

And this is indeed all due to the Taxed Enough Party.

This is why the pundits just can’t figure out what’s going on with the GOP field this cycle.

It’s the first Tea Party election, duh.


37 posted on 10/28/2011 10:46:18 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: fightinJAG
He goes on to make once criticism of how Cain is selling his plan presently, but says 999 is the fastest, biggest way to juice the economy.

Yeah, Cain is doing a poor job of selling it IMO. Which is a damn shame, because it really is a phenomenal tax plan.
38 posted on 10/28/2011 10:47:30 PM PDT by Utmost Certainty (Our Enemy, the State)
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To: RobbyS
Dear Lord but they have such a magical understanding of what wealth is! Like it comes out of a bottle in the form of a genie.

I consider wealth a relative term of Net Worth, not Income.

39 posted on 10/28/2011 10:50:30 PM PDT by Cobra64 (Too many people are incapable of critical thinking. Common sense isn't common anymore.)
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To: Utmost Certainty

I hope they’ll get their act together on this.

The way I look at it is: I’m not discouraged because it’s early, and this is an excellent time for all the shiite to hit the fan, for the Cain campaign to figure out what the sticking points are and to figure out how to address them, for the initial shock of major reform and new (to some) ideas to sink in and recede a little before we really have to get down to political business.

And all this is happening before the LSM is fully engaged.

Also I think it’s been an excellent time for the grassroots to debate and learn the arguments for and against the plan. We’re going to have to help Cain sell it and this process has been invaluable.


40 posted on 10/28/2011 10:53:35 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: bigbob

He won’t.......that will confirm once more he is a flopper.


41 posted on 10/28/2011 10:54:57 PM PDT by federal__reserve (Perry is a good man but his one on one debates with Obama keeps me awake at nights.)
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To: All
I agree with other comments, Newt isn't completely out of it and has a better flat tax plan than Perry's in my view. Newt has the added benefit of an ability to readily articulate and defend it.

Perry's further down in polling even though he started off collecting a lot of money, his momentum is heading in the other direction as vote casting gets closer.

I like 9-9-9 but I'd take Newt's flat tax.

42 posted on 10/28/2011 10:56:08 PM PDT by newzjunkey (Republicans will find a way to reelected Obama.)
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To: fightinJAG
Well put. Gingrich really pissed me off when he sandbagged Paul Ryan. And that stupid stunt with Stretch on the couch re global warming.

He's out of touch sometimes, but when he gets tuned in, he's a bull dog that no one can touch in a debate.

Anyway, (off topic) these guys should expand their platform beyond taxes and come up with very specific deficit reduction action items such as:

Eliminate all subsidies, eliminate the Department of Energy, Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Education, Housing and Urban Development, et cetera.

43 posted on 10/28/2011 10:58:36 PM PDT by Cobra64 (Too many people are incapable of critical thinking. Common sense isn't common anymore.)
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To: Cobra64

Eliminate all subsidies, eliminate the Department of Energy, Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Education, Housing and Urban Development, et cetera.


Eliminate all that and more especially the UN, but this is something else we have to run silent on as all those departments have rat voters with rat influence.

We need to stop demanding of Cain and Perry that they articulate anything that aggravates, rather than attracts voters we need but don’t have.

Obama set the trap a couple days ago: ‘These people are going to take everything away’ and we need to worry about how he intends to expand this tack.

We need to be loudly describing the things we intend to BUILD and MAKE and IMPROVE right now... send a positive, attractive, exciting message. We’re battling for the Independents and Reagan Democrats: we need to be talking about the Shining City on the Hill. Time’s short.

We can exact revenge later.


44 posted on 10/28/2011 11:11:13 PM PDT by txhurl (Did you want to talk or fish? Or feed the fish?)
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To: fightinJAG
Everything has its tipping point and we are there as far as the present tax code is concerned.

I just don't believe it. Yes, many, if not most of us on the Right want to see the tax code overhauled. Me...I'd like to see the income tax repealed, but that isn't likely to happen, unfortunately. So a flat tax will help. But I really don't have much faith that an overwhelming majority of the American people will stand up and demand serious, substantive tax reform.

45 posted on 10/28/2011 11:30:08 PM PDT by Wolfstar
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To: RobbyS
And by rich they are talking about people whose taxable income is about $300,000 a year. A nice sum, but that includes ,many couples and of course small businesses. Dear Lord but they have such a magical understanding of what wealth is! Like it comes out of a bottle in the form of a genie.

BS.

Take all taxes into account and the "rich", for purposes of taxation begins around 75k.

Do we keep having to revisit the graphs as to who actually pays most of the income taxes?

It ain't the "rich" and it ain't the parasites.

46 posted on 10/28/2011 11:50:23 PM PDT by Publius6961 (My world was lovely, until it was taken over by parasites.)
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To: Publius6961

That 300,0000 figure is the top 1%. In practical terms, considering their vulnerability to taxation, the people who make much less are at risk. Tax collectors tend to be harder on the less powerful, because the latter are politically unconnected.


47 posted on 10/29/2011 12:18:28 AM PDT by RobbyS (Back in Jefferson)
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To: fightinJAG

Russia has had a 13% flat tax since 2000 and has posted federal budget surpluses for years. Before that, it had a progressive income tax inherited from the Soviet Union that no one paid and it was in the same boat we are in today. Real change will improve America’s economic fortunes. We simply can no longer afford the status quo.


48 posted on 10/29/2011 12:35:04 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: fightinJAG
I love the fact that Cain and Perry are talking about change in the tax code. It's been a long time coming.

As the Chamber Brothers said, "Time has come today". We may be on the verge of an overhaul to the tax code.

49 posted on 10/29/2011 2:01:22 AM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: jpsb

Both Perry and Newt plans have the same problems:

1) They are “optional” which guarantees less revenue and therefor tax hikes as soon as revenues are found to be short of expectations.

2) They do not eliminate the corporate tax and the political corruption it creates.

3) They preserve deductions and credits that keep them from being “flat”, and prove both politicians are simply panderers advocating the government continue its failed policies of social engineering.

4) Their huge standard exemptions guarantee even more people will pay zero taxes than the current 47%. They will have no reason not to vote themselves more free stuff if they know somebody else gets stuck with the bill.


50 posted on 10/29/2011 2:12:50 AM PDT by Kellis91789 (There's a reason the mascot of the Democratic Party is a jackass.)
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