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Islam or Islamist? Is our trouble with a religion or an ideology?
National Review ^ | 10/28/2011 | Andrew McCarthy

Posted on 10/30/2011 6:49:01 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Islam or Islamist? That is the question. Is the term “Islamist” a politically incorrect fabrication to dodge the inconvenient truth that Islam itself is inherently and inevitably chauvinistic and totalitarian? Or is it a necessary distinction to draw: denominating supremacist Muslims striving to impose on societies a classical, rigid construction of Islamic law, distinguishing them from authentic Muslim moderates who elevate reason, embrace pluralism, and take sharia as spiritual guidance rather than the mandatory law for civil society?

I think we have to separate Islamists from Islam. My friend Robert Spencer disagrees. As NRO readers may know from my reviews of some of Robert’s books and my frequent references to his invaluable work at Jihad Watch, I hold him in high esteem. On this question, however, he is mistaken. And because how we answer the “Islam or Islamist?” question critically affects how we respond to the profound threat posed by supremacist Muslims, we must answer it correctly.

A little background is in order. My column last weekend was a defense of Robert, and of David Horowitz, against the “Islamophobia” charges recently leveled at them by the Center for American Progress. There, I pointed out that “I regularly use the term ‘Islamist’ rather than ‘Islam’ to draw a distinction between the ideology of the enemy and Islam as it is practiced by most American Muslims, and by millions of Muslims throughout the world.” I added that Messrs. Spencer and Horowitz do likewise — an assertion I made because, among other reasons, I was sure I’d seen the term “Islamist” or “Islamism” in the September 30 essay they jointly published here on NRO. In fact, it is in the title of that essay, “Rational Fear of Islamism” — but titles are often the work of editors, not authors.

As recounted in the Corner earlier this week, Robert e-mailed me after the column appeared to offer this correction: He does not use the term “Islamist.” In his view, the “Islam/Islamism distinction is an artificial one imposed by the West, with no grounding in Islamic history, theology, or law.” Coincidentally, it turned out that while I was busy writing my column for that weekend, Robert was penning “Islam and Islamists.” In it, he expanded on this very argument. To use the term “Islamist,” he asserts, is to incorrectly imply “that Islam itself, in its authentic form, has no requisite political aspect, and no incompatibility with Western values or democratic government.”

My seminal disagreement is with Robert’s premise that there is and can be but a single authentic form of Islam. As readers of The Grand Jihad know, I struggled mightily with the “Islam or Islamist” question. It is the subject of my book’s second chapter, which asks whether our challenge is appropriately labeled “Islamism” or whether that label is a cop out, side-stepping the grim reality that Islam itself is and will always be the West’s problem.

Obviously, the West will never arrive at a successful defensive strategy unless we correctly identify the threat. So, should we focus our attention on those Muslims for whom imposition of sharia — Islam’s supremacist politico-legal system — is an inseparable part of their ideology? Or, in the alternative, should we come to the reluctant conclusion that this mandate to impose classical sharia, with its laws governing all aspects of life, simply is Islam? As I concluded in the book, there are too many non-supremacist Muslims to write off Islam; our target must be the supremacists. “Islamist” is a label suitable to the essential task of distinguishing our Muslim enemies from our Muslim allies — declared and potential.

Lest you think I’ve secretly hit the Saudi-funding jackpot, there is no lushly endowed sinecure at Georgetown or Harvard in my future. My conclusion that our focus has to be Islamism, rather than Islam, is fraught with skepticism. Yes, there are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslim people; but have they really come up with a coherent Islamic ideology that separates mosque and state? Not a foot-stomping claim that Islam must yield to modern sensibilities, but an argument based in Islamic doctrine itself? And even if they have developed such a theory, or at least could conceivably do so in the future, will it be compelling enough to compete with, nullify, and marginalize supremacist, political Islam — which, however much this dismays us, has the advantage of reliance on clear scriptural commands?

Without question, Robert is correct that the political and supremacist aspects of Islamic doctrine, which flesh out the ideology many of us call “Islamist,” trace their origins to Mohammed. As he further observes, they are taught by the classic schools of Islamic jurisprudence, which undoubtedly explains their power and endurance for over a millennium.

Nevertheless, while many millions of Muslims adhere to these doctrinal components, it is also true that many millions of Muslims do not. Most of the latter simply ignore them, but others labor to develop theories aimed at countering and discrediting political, supremacist Islam. This is seen in the United States, for example, in the work of Zuhdi Jasser and the American Islamic Forum for Democracy. At Princeton University’s James Madison Program, Australian academic Abdullah Saeed recently delivered a lecture arguing that resort to the Koran and episodes in the life of Mohammed can eventually undermine the classical rendering of sharia. (The lecture has been published in First Things, under the title, “The Islamic Case for Religious Liberty.”) On the international stage, the LibForAll Foundation has just released an English translation of The Illusion of the Islamic State, a compendium edited by the late Islamic scholar Abdurrahman Wahid. Once the president of democratic Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim-majority country by population, the influential Wahid also led Nadlahtul Ulama (NU), the world’s largest Muslim organization, with over 40 million members. NU and other Indonesian moderates are clashing directly with the Muslim Brotherhood, arguing that Islamic scripture does not require the establishment of a caliphate or the imposition of sharia jurisprudence (i.e., fiqh) as governing law. Sharia, they contend, is a matter of private conscience.

I am very confident that Robert is correct about classical Islam. I’ll go further: When I read these competing works, I come away less than convinced. Sometimes it feels like I’m back at the Blind Sheikh trial, looking in vain for the scholar who proves that the emir of jihad has it all wrong: Authoritative Islamic scripture and recognized canons of fiqh do not really endorse the terrorizing of unbelievers, subjugation of women, and killing of apostates and homosexuals, and that all those well-meaning people who say the Blind Sheikh is lying about Islam — perverting it, hijacking it — have been right all along. Alas, you never find that scholar. Parsed closely, the negative critiques against Islamists accuse them of being “too literal,” of lacking nuance, or not appreciating that the horrific provisions of scripture need to be “contextualized” — understood as applicable to their time and place, of little or no relevance in today’s very different world. Such critiques cede a lot of ground — too much for my comfort level. I want to believe these arguments will be enough someday to refute the supremacist, political Islam that has been endorsed for centuries by renowned Islamic scholars — the Islam that has been shrewdly developed as a practical political program for decades by the Muslim Brotherhood. But I am doubtful.

Still, it is presumptuous to imply that Muslims who don’t adhere to classical Islam are not really following Islam. In the aforementioned “Islam and Islamists,” Robert insists that Islam is inherently and necessarily political, and that its political program has always been the “union of religion and the state.” The denial that this is and must be so, he contends, is “the wishful thinking of Western analysts who do not wish to face the implications of the fact that these ideas represent mainstream Islamic thinking.” I think that is wrong, and I say this as someone who has been about as adamant as one can be that we must face the implications of the fact that Islamism is a mainstream interpretation of Islam — in many places, the mainstream interpretation.

To be sure, there is a good deal of wishful thinking going on. As Robert says, too many Western analysts turn a blind eye to the palpable nexus between Islamic doctrine and supremacist, political Islam. But to say a set of ideas represents “mainstream” thinking is not the same as saying it is the only conceivable way of understanding a doctrine.

To take a fairly obvious example, the U.S. Constitution is a social compact in a single document — its four corners making it infinitely more easily knowable than Islamic doctrine, which comes to us from a variety of different sources (the Koran, hadiths, biographies of Mohammed, etc.). Yet, there are several different schools of constitutional interpretation, and a few of them (e.g., originalism and the “organic Constitution”) have enough of a following to be called “mainstream” even though they are quite different from — you might even say diametrically opposed to — one another.

While Robert is correct to point out that the classic schools of Sunni and Shiite jurisprudence promote supremacist, political Islam, that does not mean other understandings do not exist and cannot be developed. As noted above, Nadlahtul Ulama has tens of millions of members and pointedly rejects supremacist, political Islam. Whether one finds NU’s theology persuasive is beside the point. These people are Muslims, and they sincerely believe Islam does not require a political dimension — indeed, they say politics disserves the spirituality they see as Islam’s core. I don’t believe it is our place to tell them they are wrong.

This is steeply uphill. The classical schools are the most influential, and their authoritarian sharia has a built-in fortification: It holds both that departures from consensus constitute apostasy and that apostasy is a capital offense — with the death penalty having been meted out enough times, with enough Islamic approbation, to put reformers and their followers on notice that their work is very risky indeed. Still, modification happens, and has happened, all the time with all manner of doctrines. Can it really be that Islam is the only doctrine in the history of the world that is immune from even the possibility of alteration and evolution? There is nothing I am more skeptical of than that proposition.

Robert coined the marvelous phrase “stealth jihad.” Well, the reason the Muslim Brotherhood must be stealthy in conducting its sharia campaign in the West is its awareness that there would be widespread rejection, including by Muslims, if it were completely open about its supremacist designs. Even in Islamic countries, sharia regimes often back down when Islamic law’s most noxious features surface. Afghanistan quietly reversed course when the West expressed outrage over its efforts to put two apostates to death. The Iranians are still threatening to stone a woman for alleged fornication, but they haven’t done it yet — public opinion has brushed them back. When King Abdullah was embarrassed several weeks ago by the revelation that a woman had been sentenced to scourging for driving a car, the sentenced was quietly vacated. The Saudis, it is worth noting, outlawed slavery in 1962 even though (as Robert observes) the practice is explicitly approved in the Koran. Yes, slavery is still quietly practiced, but the formal ban in a country where sharia is the law of the land demonstrates that sharia can be changed, just as it can be (and has historically been) mitigated or suppressed by factors like culture and law.

We do not have to be delirious optimists to grasp these things. After all, change is not a one-way street — it can be regressive, too. As I argued in The Grand Jihad, President Wahid grossly underrated the numbers and influence of Muslims who subscribe to supremacist, political Islam. He also ceded significant ground in arguing that the “virulent” ideology of the Wahhabists and Salafists is “literal” and “simplistic.” It is hard to discredit something as a perversion of Islam when you are conceding its basis in written scripture, even if you add, as Wahid did, the caveat that its rendering of scripture is “selective.”

That virulent Islam is ascendant in the world today. Despite the good work of Nadlahtul Ulama, it is gaining strength in parts of Indonesia. It is rolling over Europe and making inroads here in America. It is a profound threat. To assert that there can be other interpretations of Islam — constructions that adapt to Western norms — is not to claim that such constructions will inevitably succeed or that Islamism’s sharia agenda will cease to be a profound threat. It is not to give Islam a pass: Even if Islam is capable of benign interpretations, it quite naturally spawns supremacist interpretations — interpretations whose influential adherents, such as Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Erdogan, echo Robert’s conclusion that their Islam is the only Islam. To draw the Islam/Islamist distinction is not to claim that everything is coming up roses or that this story must eventually have a happy ending.

Nevertheless, the question raised by Robert’s unyielding position is whether there are, and can be, other viable interpretations of Islam. The answer is yes. They are not as cogent as we’d like them to be, and they do not compete with classical Islam as effectively as we wish. Most of the time, they are less a refutation of classical Islam than a choice — conscious or unconscious — to ignore its supremacist, political elements. But even a passive choice can change a doctrine or a social system, and can do so even if the ignored elements remain on the books.

We see that with our own law: political decisions about which statutes get enforced and which do not can effectively nullify the latter over time. Repeal is more often achieved by inaction than by a formal process — inaction does not require an airtight theory why some law or standard is no longer honored; all you need is inertia. Once the political will to enforce a standard has evaporated, most any post facto rationalization will justify it — even one that barely passes the laugh test. If Muslims came to a consensus position that mosque and state would henceforth be separated, or that aggressive jihad was no longer an acceptable way to impose sharia, it would be immaterial that these positions represented a less than compelling exegesis of their scripture.

My argument with Islam’s Western apologists is not that this kind of evolution is out of the realm of possibility. It is with their absurd insistence that it has already happened. Not just that it could conceivably happen — about which there are lots of reasons for pessimism — but that it has already happened. This is not only self-evidently untrue; it may be fatally counterproductive. By failing to shine the light of inquiry on supremacist, political Islam — by failing to force Islamists into the position of publicly acknowledging and defending their noxious beliefs — we deprive pro-Western Muslims of the platform they need to promote reform and marginalize the supremacists. This only empowers faux moderates like the Muslim Brotherhood, enabling them to push sharia as if it were unthreatening and promote Hamas as if it were an ordinary political party.

That, however, is a different problem from the one Robert’s position poses. He is essentially saying that if it is not supremacist and political, then it is not Islam. That not only closes the door on any potential reform, it risks antagonizing pro-Western Muslims. There are many of them and they have no desire to impose sharia on civil society — even if they are less vocal about that than we’d like. Given that they nevertheless see themselves as faithful Muslims, I do not see what purpose is served by telling them that Islam is incorrigibly supremacist and political.

From a tactical standpoint, we want such Muslims as our allies, and we certainly want to see them make inroads against the Islamic supremacists. That makes the Islam/Islamist distinction a worthy accommodation. It does not deny that classical Islam is the source of Islamism. But it does two important things. First, it identifies as “Islamist” those Muslims who hold to the supremacist and political aspects of Islam — and it is very useful for us to see those people for what they are. Second, it acknowledges interpretations of Islam that reject these political and supremacist elements: They are plausible, they are legitimately called “Islam,” and we want them to thrive. That is not a prediction of success, but it is a significant show of support.

— Andrew C. McCarthy, a senior fellow at the National Review Institute, is the author, most recently, of The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: ideology; islam; islamist; religion
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1 posted on 10/30/2011 6:49:04 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

2 posted on 10/30/2011 6:52:38 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: SeekAndFind

Our problem is that we’re ignorant of the McCarran Act and no one is enforcing it.

Basically, it states that a person can ‘believe’ anything he wishes, but he cannot act out those beliefs if it’s against the laws of the land.

IE a person can believe in cannibalism, but he cannot kill and eat people because it’s against the law. A person can believe in honor killings, forced marriages, rape as a form of disciple, but he cannot practice them because they’re all against the law in the United States .... at least until we come under Sharia Law.


3 posted on 10/30/2011 6:54:10 AM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (I am Roman Catholic, US Citizen, Patriot, TEA Party Alumni, Oath Keeper, Voter, Auburn Fan!)
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To: SeekAndFind
I think he's saying that a Muslim who drinks beer and has a dog might be OK.
4 posted on 10/30/2011 6:55:36 AM PDT by Tribune7 (If you demand perfection you will wind up with leftist Democrats)
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To: SeekAndFind

Isalm is not a religion it is a murderous cult, there I fixed it!


5 posted on 10/30/2011 6:55:36 AM PDT by ronnie raygun (V)
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To: oh8eleven

I have an Encyclopedia Britannica 1970 that I wish I would have read the entry for from ¨Pan-Islamism¨ prior to 9/11. They had these bastards pegged.


6 posted on 10/30/2011 6:57:55 AM PDT by onedoug (lf)
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To: SeekAndFind

The problem as I see it is that the main difference between radical muslims and so called moderate muslims is that the radicals act on what they are taught. Moderates and radicals are taught the same things.


7 posted on 10/30/2011 6:58:03 AM PDT by umgud
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To: SeekAndFind
Radical islam is an insane murder cult; moderate islam is its trojan horse.

Radical islam is real islam. Watch the so-called "moderates" scurry to the shadows when the head-chopping begins. The head-choppers always brush the "moderates" aside once they have sufficient numbers in place in any society.

"Moderate" islam is simply islam in stealth-mode, using the ancient playbook to infiltrate their target societies. This has been the pattern for 1,400 years, and ignorance of history will not excuse anyone from suffering the consequences.

8 posted on 10/30/2011 6:58:16 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: SeekAndFind

Here is the problem and it is both theological and ideological...http://www.theusmat.com/islamandfreewill.htm


9 posted on 10/30/2011 6:58:59 AM PDT by mosesdapoet (BTW Romney suppTo punish a province let it be ruled by a professor Fredrick The Great paraphrased)
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To: SeekAndFind

If you practice and/or agree with communism, you are a freaking communist. If you practice or agree with islam, you are an islamist. Period. There are no degrees of separation except what you might call yourself for public consumption.


10 posted on 10/30/2011 6:59:55 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: SeekAndFind
I think any religion or ideology has the potential to go either way, it depends on the hand that holds it. Like a gun. In the hands of someone who only wants it for self-defense, it's one thing. In the hands of someone who wants what you have, it's another. Any religion, if used only for guidance of self, is probably harmless enough. It's when you decide that you're going to make other people live under it too that it turns lethal. The problem isn't weapons, politics, or religion. The problem is PEOPLE.

That said, some ideologies attract dangerous people, and Islam seems to be one of them. It's the sawed-off-shotgun in my metaphorical armory.

11 posted on 10/30/2011 7:00:30 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: SeekAndFind

The theocracy.


12 posted on 10/30/2011 7:01:05 AM PDT by Netizen (Path to citizenship = Scamnesty. If you give it away, more will come. Who's pilfering your wallet?)
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To: Tribune7
The problem is that even "fallen" muslims are extremely dangerous, because Mad Mo cleverly inserted the "kill infidels and get 72 virgins" clause into his insane pseudo-relition.

Take for example the Air Egypt crash. A typical secular-appearing, "westernized" pilot is being sent home to face the music on some minor scandal. Instead, he dives a jetliner into the ocean, killing 100s.

And ANY muslim might decide on the sudden jihad option, at any time. A lifetime of drinking and whoring is automatically excused by committing jihad murder.

13 posted on 10/30/2011 7:01:36 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Netizen; SeekAndFind

The cult.


14 posted on 10/30/2011 7:02:17 AM PDT by airborne (Paratroopers! Good to the last drop!)
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To: HighlyOpinionated

Thanks for the info on the McCarran Act..

I was never aware that existed.. It is “common sense” act (law)for a civilized nation.

I will google it and read the info..


15 posted on 10/30/2011 7:04:45 AM PDT by 56newblog (Registered Islamophobe)
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To: SeekAndFind

McCarthy is right > Spencer is wrong


16 posted on 10/30/2011 7:08:46 AM PDT by nuconvert ( Khomeini promised change too // Hail, Chairman O)
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"I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear". - Barack Obama

Support Free Republic

17 posted on 10/30/2011 7:11:14 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Travis McGee
A lifetime of drinking and whoring is automatically excused by committing jihad murder.

That's true, Trav, but the having-the-pet-dog thing might be a sticker.

I basically agree with you. Islam is the largest kool-aid cult in the world.

It has evil values.

If we don't address it on the terms that the values it espouses are wrong we are in for a lot of misery.

18 posted on 10/30/2011 7:13:40 AM PDT by Tribune7 (If you demand perfection you will wind up with leftist Democrats)
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To: SeekAndFind
Religion or ideology?

Yes.

19 posted on 10/30/2011 7:15:46 AM PDT by Rudder (The Main Stream Media is Our Enemy---get used to it.)
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To: SeekAndFind
And while a bunch of flipping idiot-scholars are arguing over just what to call a bunch of murdering, chauvinistic, egotistical, low-life, goat-loving, cave-dwelling pieces of human excrement, the afore-described pustules on the buttocks of society continue to kill and maim in the name of a god and his so-called pedophile "prophet" that has never existed as the afore-described particles of dog excrement wish that he had.

How much longer and how many more lives lost before we eliminate the plague that islam is?

And there is no, I repeat NO, such thing as a good moderate muslim.

I have no use for scholarly discussion of this crap.

Rather, let's discuss ways to eliminate it.

Once we have eliminated it, then we can argue over what to call it.

20 posted on 10/30/2011 7:18:44 AM PDT by OldSmaj (I am an avowed enemy of islam and obama is a damned fool and traitor. Questions?)
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To: SeekAndFind

It’s not the religion it’s the imams and their followers.


21 posted on 10/30/2011 7:19:04 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Travis McGee

islam, in ALL its forms is, and has been, a declaration of WAR on civilization. That is all it is and that is all it has ever been. It is an evil force that seeks to dominate the world with its insanity and hateful perversion.
Those who accept it and enable it are just as insane and equally as perverse becsuse it frees them from their conscience and justifies their own hatred and perversions.
It justifies homosexuality, pedophiia, bestiality, murder, torture, slavery, brutality, barbarism, ignorance, dishonesty, suicide, and any other abnormal urge one night ever have. It is a sickness of the mind and body; a destructive force that destroys everything it touches.


22 posted on 10/30/2011 7:20:54 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: Paladin2

It is not a religion. It is an illness. It is insanity personified and intensified by its practitioners.


23 posted on 10/30/2011 7:23:58 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: SeekAndFind

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!”

-Winston Churchill


24 posted on 10/30/2011 7:27:53 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (999er for Cain.)
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To: Tribune7

islam has no ‘values’. That is why it exists. To justify the lack of anything resembling a ‘value’ or a moral compass. It completely obliterates the conscience and expands a culture of mindless psychopaths.


25 posted on 10/30/2011 7:32:00 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: Tribune7

It seems to me that he is saying that there are less literal forms of islam that we should be encouraging for tactical reasons i.e. they are a weapon against the islamic extremist fundamentalists.


26 posted on 10/30/2011 7:36:55 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: SeekAndFind
The bottom line is that Islam is a poilitcal movement not a religion. Islamic Law.....kill all the christians and jews.

I had an old circa 1850 book. There was a memorable picture of a man with wild eyes riding a horse...the caption was "A sword in one hand and the koran in the other". Nothing has changed!!!

27 posted on 10/30/2011 7:41:02 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: A_perfect_lady

Elegantly put. Maybe Islam attracts dangerous people because it hasnt fully grown up yet. Face it, most of its adherents are living in second or third world nations now. They have never had an equivalent to the renaissance, or anyone like John Locke.


28 posted on 10/30/2011 7:42:09 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: SeekAndFind

Appropriate here, this is another re-post of my “Islam = Cancer” screed.

Anyone sick of it can skip it and use their time more wisely to burn a Koran.

Think it through with me - the parallels are significant, and denial is a dangerous option.

First, cancer cells are very similar to our own. You can’t quite say they are not human cells, or “our very own cells.” They spring up from our own cells. They are genetically identical in almost every way.

But they have some odd, unusual “thoughts” and “behaviors”. They multiply rapidly. They invade surrounding areas, and spread to distant areas to set up enclaves, pushing aside noncancerous cells and structures.

They use the body’s own mechanisms and resources against it. They insert themselves into key structures and disable or destroy them. They overwhelm the body’s natural defenses and immune system. The body cannot effectively wall them off, keep them in check, change their inherent nature and behavior, or “make peace” with them in any way. Ultimately, left unchecked, the natural history of cancer is to wreak havoc on the body, causing much suffering, and eventually death.

The only known cures are extreme, aggressive, destructive ones - radical cures: surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation. There is always collateral damage, death of healthy cells, sometimes removal of entire functional tissues and organs.

But often enough there is improvement, either improved functioning and quality of life, or often a complete cure, which entails permanent and complete removal of all cancer cells from the body. Although not all cancer cells are always invading and destroying vital structures, it is important to aim for complete eradication of all cells as the goal of treatment, or the cancer will return with time.


29 posted on 10/30/2011 7:45:43 AM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: MestaMachine

I agree on the moral compass thing. Islam has no conception that God is good. Instead it puts it the other way round. Good is what God says is good (according to the Quran). His laws and dictates (as described by the Quran) are not to be questioned. Period. As a result, Moslems don’t have to defend God’s character. They would never have a discussion with an unbeliever on the lines of “one of the ten commandments is ‘Thou shalt not kill’ and yet in parts of the OT the same God orders the Israelites to exterminate entire peoples and cultures, so what kind of God is that?”


30 posted on 10/30/2011 7:51:53 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Vanders9
Yes. I think it attracts dangerous people because it is so autocratic. Islam will tell you what to eat, how to handle your money, the length to cut your nails, the time of day to pray and what direction to face in... the more stringent an ideology is, the more unstable people it attracts. Reasonable dults don't need to be told by an outside force how to live their lives; they have enough internal balance that they can figure out the basics (obey the rule of law, do unto others) and for the rest, they feel their way via trial-and-error (Not going to THAT barber again, or, Wow, avoid credit card debt! or Don't get that third drink; remember feeling of hangover.)

But immature or unstable people need structure and lots of it. Then, on top of that, they need validation, which they only get by seeing others also adhering to that structure.

31 posted on 10/30/2011 7:53:34 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: Paladin2

Totally disagree.

I keep a copy of the koran (fart gas be upon it) next to the toilet. I read a stanza or two while taking care of business.

izslum is not a religion, its a cult of 7th century barbarians. izslum is a thugocracy comprised of a gang of knuckle headed, knuckle dragging Neanderthal hell bent on world domination.

(I have suspicions that izslum was started by the ghost of Nimrod, here to rebuild the Tower of Babel, but that’s only my opinion.)

Anyone with even half a brain could read the koran (dog doo be upon it) and figure out that it was a screed penned by a mad man pedophile, trying to figure out a way to justify his own self indulgent excesses while getting rich by looting everyone around him. Moohammer (pig doo be upon him) used this so called religion, to get his useful idiots to run head long into battle with little regard for their own lives, so that he could stay in the rear and pork (pun intended) little girls and boys.

I agree with an earlier poster and I have often said myself: there is no such thing as a moderate muzslime, you believe that bull dung at your own peril.

This whole story is another attempt by some do-gooder westerner to use pretzel logic to justify and deem reasonable, that which cannot be justified nor deemed reasonable.


32 posted on 10/30/2011 7:57:23 AM PDT by ConradofMontferrat (According to muzslimes, my handle is a hate crime.)
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To: A_perfect_lady

Reasonable ADULTS, I meant.


33 posted on 10/30/2011 7:57:31 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: umgud
Like I have always said, “they all read the same book!” My hero Ronald Reagan said it best, “Trust but verify”. Today if we trust, we will get ourselves killed.
34 posted on 10/30/2011 8:07:38 AM PDT by cameraeye (A happy kuffir!)
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To: A_perfect_lady
I agree absolutely with this line of thinking, but I always find the inevitable conclusion very distressing. Overall, religion in the West is in decline. A slow steady decline, with occasional reversals, but overall, in decline. It seems to me that the shades of religious thought which are doing best are those that, frankly, tell people what to do, rather than simply provide a gentle guidance to people so they can work it through themselves. Does that mean that really we are all far too lazy? Do we find actual thinking so hard that we are prepared to just abdicate it and leave it all to someone else? If that is so, what hope for our liberal (classic sense) democratic processes? If the people cannot think through these things, or will not, or are too idle to, then what hope for "government of the people"?

Its unsettling. Its also very dangerous.

35 posted on 10/30/2011 8:10:27 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: SeekAndFind

There are a couple of paragraphs I found particularly fascinating:

“Nevertheless, the question raised by Robert’s unyielding position is whether there are, and can be, other viable interpretations of Islam. The answer is yes. They are not as cogent as we’d like them to be, and they do not compete with classical Islam as effectively as we wish. Most of the time, they are less a refutation of classical Islam than a choice — conscious or unconscious — to ignore its supremacist, political elements. But even a passive choice can change a doctrine or a social system, and can do so even if the ignored elements remain on the books.”

and

“My argument with Islam’s Western apologists is not that this kind of evolution is out of the realm of possibility. It is with their absurd insistence that it has already happened. Not just that it could conceivably happen — about which there are lots of reasons for pessimism — but that it has already happened. This is not only self-evidently untrue; it may be fatally counterproductive. By failing to shine the light of inquiry on supremacist, political Islam — by failing to force Islamists into the position of publicly acknowledging and defending their noxious beliefs — we deprive pro-Western Muslims of the platform they need to promote reform and marginalize the supremacists. This only empowers faux moderates like the Muslim Brotherhood, enabling them to push sharia as if it were unthreatening and promote Hamas as if it were an ordinary political party. “

I also was interested to read his conclusions in the last two paragraphs. IMHO the whole article was a worthwhile read. Thanks for the post.


36 posted on 10/30/2011 8:19:41 AM PDT by TEXOKIE (The Tea Party outnumbers the Flea Party!)
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To: HighlyOpinionated

THanks for the McCarran Act to our attention.


37 posted on 10/30/2011 8:20:39 AM PDT by TEXOKIE (The Tea Party outnumbers the Flea Party!)
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To: A_perfect_lady

I like your metaphor. We always get into trouble when we do not respect the other person’s free will and try to exert our own.


38 posted on 10/30/2011 8:22:57 AM PDT by TEXOKIE (The Tea Party outnumbers the Flea Party!)
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To: OldSmaj

McCarthy is a poor theologian, a closeted postmodern, and a coward. Words mean things, and “interpreting” Islam in a more “contextual way” when the meaning of the text is plain is nothing but an invitation to Mohammedans to play “let’s pretend”. I can understand and even, in a way, admire the Mohammedan refusal to embrace that intellectual dishonesty.

What McCarthy wants is not to have to truly confront Mohammedanism. That would involve breeching all sorts of postmoderm/gramscian shibboeths. It would be ever so much more convenient if Mohammedans would just simply become like Episcopalians, Methodists (UMC), or Unitarians. Of course, this is rather like it would have been to hope in prior generations that the Communists or Nazis would abandon their creeds through “contextualization” and become Franciscan friars.

Distinguishing between a “religion” and an “ideology”, as some try to do, is absurd. “Religion” is just another word for metaphysics and worldview. Everyone has both of these, whether he realizes it or not. While metaphysics provides an ontology, a system of values, and other fundamental beliefs for interpreting the world, “Ideologies” are just the worldview applied to social/political issues. Again, everyone has an ideology whether he knows it or not.

Here McCarthy is squeamish. The issue isn’t whether a worldview is “supremecist” or not; the issue is whether it is true. What McCarthy doesn’t want to do is take on the “truth” issue. I suspect that he lives in a milieu in which the background assumptions are postmodern, and claiming that there is a true metaphysics would be viewed even in his circles as “unsophisticated”....or worse - de classe.

We live in an age in which the best - or at least those who believe they are the “best - lack courage. This is why we can’t deal effectively with any public policy issue, whether it be illegal immigration, Mohammedanism, spending, taxing, or anything at all related to sexuality.

Through generations of control of education and the media the left has managed to produce elites and a general populace without genuine conviction. Consequently, we continue to slowly slide toward our own destruction, fully aware that it is approaching, but too cowardly to say and do the things necessary to avert it.


39 posted on 10/30/2011 8:26:41 AM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: SeekAndFind

“There is no such thing as moderate Islam. There is only Islam” The former president of Eqypt.


40 posted on 10/30/2011 8:32:34 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Vanders9
Does that mean that really we are all far too lazy? Do we find actual thinking so hard that we are prepared to just abdicate it and leave it all to someone else? If that is so, what hope for our liberal (classic sense) democratic processes? If the people cannot think through these things, or will not, or are too idle to, then what hope for "government of the people"?

By and large, yes, I think that's exactly what it means. You must remember that the average person is an IQ 100 couch potato, content to sit and watch TV while shoving donuts into his face. That is average humanity, and has been from the dawn of time. That's why most civilizations throughout history have consisted of a few ruthless people ruling, their mandates being carried out by a cadre of ambitious people, and the remainder of humanity lives under that rule, content enough as long as there are bread and circuses.

That has always been the norm.

The men who wrote our Constitution were rare and unusual types. There have always been philosophical individuals, and there have always been comfortably wealthy individuals, and there have always been well-educated individuals, but through some rare and random accident of fate, a handful of men who were all three were at the same place and time. Seeing that opportunity, they made a template. That template could only be followed by people carefully selected and trained to follow it. We had that, here in the US, for a few decades.

But by the early 1900s, it was already in decline. We reached a tipping point quickly of types who want the ruthless and ambitious telling them what to do, providing the bread and the circuses, and I do believe America will soon be reclaimed by the jungle. I consider myself lucky to have seen the tail end of it, but humanity is what humanity is, and it doesn't change. It can learn, but it can't change its basic nature. And its basic nature is as primitive as any gorilla. We just have imagination, and more sophisticated means of transferring information, that's all.

41 posted on 10/30/2011 8:53:30 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: A_perfect_lady

I can agree except on one thing. “That said, some ideologies attract dangerous people, and Islam seems to be one of them.”
Muslims are not attracted to Islam, they are born to it. There
certainly may be the odd case of attraction, by some individual searching for a religion, but that is the exception not the rule. Other than that we agree totally.


42 posted on 10/30/2011 9:17:26 AM PDT by greyfox (If I were a Democrat I'd be pushing for the fairness doctrine too.)
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To: onedoug

What did it say?


43 posted on 10/30/2011 9:37:52 AM PDT by GOPJ ( Democrats are the only reason to vote for Republicans.... Will Rogers)
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To: greyfox

Islam is recruiting briskly in our prisons.


44 posted on 10/30/2011 1:26:59 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Regarding some points from the article:

I can understand clinically defined phobias. But, it has become fashionable to add “phobia” to any word to dismiss a person or a grp of people by implying that they are ignorant, or, worse, have psychological problems (anxiety disorder) – shall we use behavioral modification & desensitization as treatment or therapy?

Hadn’t heard of “Islamism” or “Islamist” before 2001. Though, a moslem is a *person* who follows Islam.

“Islamists trace their origins to Mohammed”.. To whom should “Islamists” (Moslems) trace their origins? When one wants to convert to Islam, all one has to say aloud in Arabic is: “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his messenger.” – Do even a fraction of Moslems not believe that the Angel Gabriel was the medium through whom Allah revealed the Koran to Mohammad?

“supremacist Islam”, “classical Islam”, “radical Islam”, “fundamentalist Islam”, “extremist Islam”, “political Islam”, etc, etc, etc.. . apparently, undermine the classical rendering of Sharia?! Mr McCarthy forgets to mention that “Sharia” is not just a set of laws, but it is also a code of conduct for moslems.

Islamic doctrine, according to Mohammad too, very clearly claims that Islam "perfects or completes" all other preceding religions. That Islam is the “final religion”, and Mohammad is "the final messenger or prophet of God”. -- That’s, partly, why the Baha’i faith, whose parent religion is Islam, is not recognized in ANY Moslem country. And, the main reason why the Baha’is are considered apostates & persecuted (not just in Iran). – how is that different to *supremacist Islam* ? Are these Moslem countries, “Islamist” countries?

Why do “officials” in Afghanistan, S. Arabia, Islamic Republic of Iran, etc.. need western pressure or outrage to quietly reverse their decisions, or not publicize the practice of stoning, hanging of apostates, flogging, and chopping fingers & hands as punishments? Would they continue should “western outrage” cease ?

I agree that moslems are individuals. Individuals, can pick & choose. They don’t need to be “pro-west” nor labeled as such to do so. But, whether *Islam* permits individualism & choice as they relate to Islamic doctrine is another matter. I know some Moslem Iranians believe it does. But then, those Iranians also confuse their cultural traditions, w/ Zoroastrian roots, w/ Islamic doctrine.

The issue with Andrew McCarthy’s article is that he (his article) is taking a *futuristic* (reformist) view of Islam. He admits it too.

So far, in 1300 plus yrs, Islam has not been ‘reformed’. Until that ‘reform’ happens, is accepted & practiced by mainstream moslems everywhere, we won’t know. And, imo, that reform, to the core tenets of Islam, needs to take place inside moslem countries by moslems themselves, because they want it to be reformed. Not simply by those (moslems incl.) who live in the West, espouse certain western values, or thru 'western outrage'. The former approach is the only way they'll have ownership of it & it'll be sustainable.

45 posted on 10/30/2011 6:06:10 PM PDT by odds
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To: Cronos; no-to-illegals; Fred Nerks; cradle of freedom; SunkenCiv; FARS

Fyi - thought you might be interested in the article & comments.


46 posted on 10/30/2011 6:08:27 PM PDT by odds
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To: odds; AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; ...

Thanks odds.


47 posted on 10/30/2011 7:23:29 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Sacajaweau
The Muslim Brotherhood Logo:


48 posted on 10/30/2011 9:15:06 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM!)
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To: A_perfect_lady
If that is the case, and I suspect it is, then you could argue that the men who wrote the constitution were not only philosophical, comfortably wealthy and well-educated, they were also very naive. Looking around the world, it is clear that dictatorship is the norm. Democracies, or at least societies that allow a peaceful transfer of power, are very few and far between.

In fact, I seem to recall (and I am not an expert on these matters, not being american) that there are statements made by none other than Thomas Jefferson that seem to indicate that he was aware of the fundamental dichotomy between the template he had created and the innate sinfulness of mankind (in this case exemplified by laziness). All this liberty being watered by the blood of patriots, and our society is only fit for god-fearing people, and so on.

This is the problem with any idealist solution to the problems of the world (and frankly that is what the US constitution is) - it all looks good on paper, and the people who come up with it I'm sure are good, honest and well meaning, but their efforts have to come up against the simple fact that Human Beings are very flawed creations.

49 posted on 10/31/2011 5:26:21 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: odds

Thanks for the ping odds. Those who practice islam are taught to be submissive to and subjects of the religion without questioning any of the dictates of the unholy book of islam. When one is brought up and trained in this way, mohammad (the prophet of all demons) realized an army could be assembled to pillage, rape, and destroy all good. mohammad used the army created to do exactly thus thereby marking any other religion as an enemy within the writings thereby justifying unspeakable acts up to and including murder within the dictates of the writings of the quran, to enable himself and not enable God, but rather enable numerous demons. Those who practice islam are enablers of evil and islam’s purpose is to enable demons bent on mankind’s destruction. mohammad was a prophets of and an enabler of demons.


50 posted on 10/31/2011 5:30:26 AM PDT by no-to-illegals (Please God, Protect and Bless Our Men and Women in Uniform with Victory. Amen. --> AmeriCain)
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