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Wind Farms Disrupting Radar, Scientists Say
FoxNews.com ^ | November 05, 2011 | unattributed

Posted on 11/05/2011 12:54:18 PM PDT by Hunton Peck

This one's really off the radar.

Wind farms, along with solar power and other alternative energy sources, are supposed to produce the energy of tomorrow. Evidence indicates that their countless whirring fan blades produce something else: "blank spots" that distort radar readings.

Now government agencies that depend on radar -- such as the Department of Defense and the National Weather Service -- are spending millions in a scramble to preserve their detection capabilities. A four-star Air Force general recently spelled out the problem to Dave Beloite, the director of the Department of Defense’s Energy Siting Clearinghouse.

"Look there’s a radar here -- one of our network of Homeland surveillance radars -- and [if you build this wind farm] you essentially are going to put my eyes out in the Northwestern corner of the United States,” Beloite related during a web conference in April.

Spinning wind turbines make it hard to detect incoming planes. To avoid that problem, military officials have blocked wind farm construction near their radars -- and in some cases later allowed them after politicians protested.

Shepherd’s Flat, a wind farm under construction in Oregon, was initially held up by a government notice that the farm would “seriously impair the ability of the (DoD) to detect, monitor and safely conduct air operations."

Then Oregon’s senators got involved.

“The Department of Defense's earlier decision threatened to drop a bomb on job creation in Central Oregon,” democratic Senator Ron Wyden noted in a press release.

Beloite told FoxNews.com that the project was given the green light by the military only after scientists at MIT’s Lincoln Laboratory assured the Department of Defense “that there were algorithms and processors they could design for not too much money that would mitigate the problem.”

Beloite said that the MIT technology has proven successful...

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS: dod; enviromentalism; globalscamming; homelandsecurity; manbearpig; noaa; radar; ronwyden; windmills
The Religion of Gaia screws up again.
1 posted on 11/05/2011 12:54:23 PM PDT by Hunton Peck
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To: Hunton Peck
I remember reading somewhere they also kill 400k birds annually, not to mention other species.

BP kills a few birds in an oil spill and they get sued for millions.

Go figure....

2 posted on 11/05/2011 1:02:12 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: Hunton Peck

That’s ok. For just a few billion dollars I could build a (single) stealth windmill. Of course I’d also need many millions of dollars a year to guard it to keep the technology from falling into our adversary’s hands, and also a few six packs to pay the locals to shoot migrating songbirds so they don’t accidentally damage the stealth coating on the blades. Seems entirely reasonable in an effort to get a few thousand dollars per year worth of electricity, don’t you think?


3 posted on 11/05/2011 1:05:19 PM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: Hunton Peck

The wind farms very definitely screw up the NEXRAD weather radars around here. Creates an entirely false doppler pattern which apparently isn’t consistent and hard to filter out with software.


4 posted on 11/05/2011 1:05:49 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: Hunton Peck

Confucius say USA man should build windfarm in Iran.


5 posted on 11/05/2011 1:07:20 PM PDT by bunkerhill7
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To: coloradan
...and also a few six packs to pay the locals to shoot migrating songbirds so they don’t accidentally damage the stealth coating on the blades.

Shhhhh...songbird blood IS the stealth coating!

6 posted on 11/05/2011 1:19:13 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Cain for President - Because I like the content of his character)
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To: Hunton Peck
Radar, another horse an buggy technology coming to an end, what is wrong with the frigging GPS locator's.
7 posted on 11/05/2011 1:24:26 PM PDT by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by Perry and his fellow demorats.)
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To: org.whodat

How do we get the Chinese to put GPS locators on their warplanes so we can track them? Same with smugglers...

DOD radar is looking for threats.

For that matter, how does GPS allow us to forcast tornadoes?


8 posted on 11/05/2011 1:28:30 PM PDT by MediaMole
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To: steve86

The wind farms very definitely screw up the NEXRAD weather radars around here. Creates an entirely false doppler pattern which apparently isn’t consistent and hard to filter out with software.
+++++++++++++++++
That is precisely the reason for the problem. Those big wind turbines will definitely create a Doppler signature that should vary with their rotational speed. And that speed varies from turbine to turbine as well as varying throughout the day.

Such a small price to pay, along with a few birds, for the privilege of over paying for our electricity on our way to a green Nirvana.


9 posted on 11/05/2011 1:35:06 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: steve86

The wind farms very definitely screw up the NEXRAD weather radars around here. Creates an entirely false doppler pattern which apparently isn’t consistent and hard to filter out with software.
+++++++++++++++++
That is precisely the reason for the problem. Those big wind turbines will definitely create a Doppler signature that should vary with their rotational speed. And that speed varies from turbine to turbine as well as varying throughout the day.

Such a small price to pay, along with a few birds, for the privilege of over paying for our electricity on our way to a green Nirvana.


10 posted on 11/05/2011 1:35:08 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: Las Vegas Ron
> I remember reading somewhere they also kill 400k birds annually, not to mention other species. BP kills a few birds in an oil spill and they get sued for millions. Go figure....

Yeah, what happened with that BP oil spill? I thought the spill was going to destroy the Gulf Coast for the next 30 years. I'm sure there's significant cleanup still going on, but where did all the dire predictions turn out?

Meanwhile, you'd think if there really were half a million bird carcasses per year rotting at the bases of wind towers, the anti-wind-power folks would would have scads of pictures by now. Bird bodies wouldn't be hard to find, just go to the towers then look around for carcasses within a few hundred feet of the base. Given inexpensive modern pic/vid technologies, it wouldn't even be that hard/costly to set up automated monitoring.

Yet there are almost no such pictures or vids. Why? Well, frankly those estimates are fabricated. In fact, there is very little hard data, and in fact, few actual carcasses have ever been found, even when searched for by the most dedicated anti-wind advocates. Despite what we read on the internet, it just doesn't hold up to even the simplest examination.

A more interesting figure would be the number of birds killed by cars each year. I believe it's a lot higher than even the worse estimate for the wind machines. And cars also kill thousands of people every year, which wind machines don't. Anybody proposing to ban cars?

The economic arguments against wind machines are much more potent than anything having to do with birds. The argument based on bird collisions is what's known as a "canard", if you'll excuse the weak pun. :)

And BTW, full-disclosure: I'm a bird watcher and bird lover from way back, and if there were really good data to support wind-power bird kills, I'm sure the various bird-related publications and sites would be all over it. So far, it's mighty flimsy.

Back on thread topic, I imagine the effect on radar is indeed significant. They say there's software to compensate... but I'm skeptical.

11 posted on 11/05/2011 1:37:01 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: org.whodat

The two have almost Nothing in common with one another.
Your lack of understanding of the two types of systems is amazing in this day and age.


12 posted on 11/05/2011 1:43:10 PM PDT by InkYouBuss_007 (This one is escaping the Cuckoo's nest)
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To: Hunton Peck
General Ripper: "Mandrake, we can let those windmill deprive us of our precious radar signatures."


13 posted on 11/05/2011 1:48:11 PM PDT by Zuben Elgenubi
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To: MediaMole

LOL, you have no ideal on earh where our defense radar systems are, maybe you should stick with something you know about. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit


14 posted on 11/05/2011 1:57:31 PM PDT by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by Perry and his fellow demorats.)
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To: InkYouBuss_007
How high are those satellites that can read your license plate. Last air force station, now closed, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minot_Air_Force_Station
15 posted on 11/05/2011 2:00:53 PM PDT by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by Perry and his fellow demorats.)
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To: org.whodat
"Radar, another horse an buggy technology coming to an end"

Lol, too funny! I love it, thanks for a good laugh.

16 posted on 11/05/2011 2:04:03 PM PDT by jpsb
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Click The Pic

Power always thinks... that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws. John Adams


17 posted on 11/05/2011 2:17:33 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: org.whodat

Please try to refrain from embarrassing yourself further.
Radar and GPS work on COMPLETELY different principals and their applications have little in common. GPS is a passive system which requires multiple satellite signals received,decoded and displayed locally at the point of reception. RADAR is a non-co-operative system that relies upon the reception of the reflection of a transmitted signal.

Your link to a defunct “over the horizon” NORAD type installation just confirms your lack of appreciation of the differences...

BTW....No airborne RADAR system has EVER been able to read the license plate of a car. That would be a relatively low level OPTICAL system. Again ...NOTHING to due with RADAR or GPS. ...study up a bit


18 posted on 11/05/2011 2:28:07 PM PDT by InkYouBuss_007 (This one is escaping the Cuckoo's nest)
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To: Hunton Peck

A wind farm in the hills southeast of Buffalo shows up as a permanent blip on weather radar. It really annoys me — I want my radar clean, dammit!


19 posted on 11/05/2011 2:45:55 PM PDT by BfloGuy (Even the opponents of Socialism are dominated by socialist ideas.)
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To: InkYouBuss_007
So those earth pictures on google are fake, and no one said that they were radar, and we have no installations like the last one closed. It is old tech, my brother served on one of the off shore tower years and years ago. They no longer exist. And gps can replace radar in the civilian usage. It just takes a program, but then the military does not have any gps weapons and drones do they. Things change better systems are developed.

The next time you drive down the road, look at the front of a big trucks trailer, at the front close to the top, that little gray box is a gps tracking system, another smaller one is hide somewhere. But then why would a company want to know where that trailer was twenty four seven. Maybe they are tracking it with 1950 radar. Good thing we only have a few hundred trailers in this country.

20 posted on 11/05/2011 2:48:41 PM PDT by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by Perry and his fellow demorats.)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks Hunton Peck.


21 posted on 11/05/2011 3:45:05 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: dayglored

Ummm. No. Just google ‘windmill bird deaths’ and you will get many pro and con stories. Just a brief reading gives 10,000 to 40,000 bird deaths per year in the U.S. alone. Turbines exist in other countries as well. One facility in Wolfe Island off the shores of Kingston, Ont., Canada, has 86 turbines. Each wind turbine averages 14 bird kills per year and 29 bat kills. That amounts to 1032 birds killed per year and 2540 bats killed.
Millions of birds die each year by unnatural causes, so the number of 40,000 in the U.S. pales by comparison. I don’t know what the deaths worldwide are. But just because the national number is much lower does not mean that it is non-existent or unimportant.
Perhaps 400,000 is a worldwide number?


22 posted on 11/05/2011 4:18:52 PM PDT by justsmithers
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To: org.whodat
Radar, another horse an buggy technology coming to an end, what is wrong with the frigging GPS locator's.

Your vocabulary is loathsome. It suggests to me that you are a ledgend in your own miniscule mind.

23 posted on 11/05/2011 5:00:57 PM PDT by Lion Den Dan
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To: org.whodat

Get back to us after you sober up.

EOF


24 posted on 11/05/2011 5:13:15 PM PDT by InkYouBuss_007 (This one is escaping the Cuckoo's nest)
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To: Hunton Peck
Dave Belote, cited in the article, is misrepresenting the effectiveness of the Scan-Step technology now being field tested at the Shepherds Flat wind project. By 2008, 39% of our long range radar was negatively impacted by wind turbines. We have twice the capacity of wind now installed and the problem is NOT resolved. Meanwhile, our taxes are picking up the bill to degrade our radar resolution in the name of the green dream. That little ‘blank spot’ Belote refers to in on the radar map is big enough to fly a space shuttle through.
25 posted on 11/05/2011 5:19:43 PM PDT by LisaS
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To: Hunton Peck

Murphy always rears his ugly head.


26 posted on 11/05/2011 5:21:32 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: InkYouBuss_007
What occupy group are you posting from is the animal rights division.
27 posted on 11/05/2011 5:22:52 PM PDT by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by Perry and his fellow demorats.)
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To: jwalsh07

Perhaps not Murphy. Perhaps it was intentional.


28 posted on 11/05/2011 5:34:01 PM PDT by thecodont
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To: LisaS

I had a feeling the reports of a low-cost solution were probably bunk. Thanks for the info.


29 posted on 11/05/2011 5:43:09 PM PDT by Hunton Peck (See my FR homepage for a list of businesses that support WI Gov. Scott Walker)
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To: justsmithers
> Millions of birds die each year by unnatural causes, so the number of 40,000 in the U.S. pales by comparison. I don’t know what the deaths worldwide are. But just because the national number is much lower does not mean that it is non-existent or unimportant.

I apologize if I seemed to be saying that bird deaths due to wind machines are "non-existent or unimportant". As one who, during my time as a wildlife rehabilitator, hand-raised a score or more injured/orphaned birds for weeks or months each until they are ready to be released, I know that every single one of those lives are God-given and precious.

Wind power at small scales has been around for centuries, and any American farmer will tell you that prior to FDR's Big-Government New Deal REA, a lot of America's rural heartland relied on wind power. I personally think that while modern small-scale wind power is both practical and worthwhile, the large-scale projects tend to be troublesome boondoggles.

Anyway, my point before was that bird kills are not a good means for advocating against large-scale wind power.

The number of birds actually killed by wind machines is a) mostly unknown, due to lack of data, and b) a lot smaller than the figures usually fabricated by the anti-wind-power advocates. In that information vacuum, people with agendas make data up. I have seen figures taken from a small study done on some turbines that were (unfortunately) sited directly on a major migration path, and multiplied by the estimated number of turbines in the world, as if they all were in such paths. That's silly at best, and a better description is "fraudulent".

> Perhaps 400,000 is a worldwide number?

It could be. As above, I don't know the real numbers any better than those who fabricate them; I believe it's lower than often cited, because no one is able to show the carcasses, and if birds were being knocked out of the sky at the cited rates, there would be piles of them on every wind farm.

Your mention of bat kills is interesting. I personally like bats a lot, and hadn't thought wind machines posed a significant danger to them, given that they are known to be able to fly through rotating electric fan blades and so on. I'll look into that, and thank you for the thought.

30 posted on 11/05/2011 7:13:47 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: dayglored
US Fish and Wildlife Service estimates annual mortality due to wind turbines at 440,000 birds. See http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/pif/pubs/McAllenProc/articles/PIF09_Anthropogenic%20Impacts/Manville_PIF09.pdf .

Bat mortality is significantly higher thanks to the poor siting of wind turbines and reckless operating procedures (during peak migration periods). Turbines are adding to the devastation already underway from white nose syndrome.

We're long past the point of trying to stop wind projects using bird/bat mortality. The public is too confused by available information — as clearly shown in your post. Still, the industry knows better but refuses to accept responsibility and our wildlife agencies (State and Local) are unwilling to stand up for fear they will lose their jobs. The question now is how much mortality will take place before the industry succumbs to the more obvious weakness — the fact that the wind cannot survive without billions paid out in federal subsidies and existing state mandates that enable developers to demand (and get) higher prices for a low-value energy.

31 posted on 11/06/2011 5:08:23 AM PST by LisaS
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