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Pakistan offers cut-price fighter jet
Reuters ^ | Nov 13, 2011

Posted on 11/13/2011 8:43:07 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki

Pakistan offers cut-price fighter jet

DUBAI | Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:57am EST

DUBAI (Reuters) - Pakistan is pitching its new JF17 Thunder fighter jet, developed jointly with China, at an aggressive discount to dominant Western rivals, the country's defense minister said on Sunday.

"You can buy three of our aircraft for one F-16," Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar told Reuters at the Dubai Air Show, where the aircraft is being displayed.

He said that the producer, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, was not able to keep pace with the requirements of the air force.

"Three squadrons are already flying the aircraft in Pakistan and one squadron in China," he added.

Analysts expect the aircraft, which Mukhtar said was priced at $25-30 million, to be focused on emerging markets in Asia and Africa.

"Going to the (European) market is not very easy because you are cutting the profits of some other people," Mukhtar said.

He said the development of the aircraft was not targeted at archrival India.

"India need not worry -- it's

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; china; jf17; pakistan; pakitrash

1 posted on 11/13/2011 8:43:08 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

What’s that leaking from the starboard wing???

Did Jed Clampett get off another lucky shot with that ole flintlock of his???

I heard he was shootin’ at some food (the other day), but this looks a little hard to field dress, much less get it to a processor...

;-)


2 posted on 11/13/2011 8:46:42 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Quality targets.


3 posted on 11/13/2011 8:50:52 AM PST by Paladin2
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To: sukhoi-30mki

The price of American hardware is dramatically higher than it could be. The contracts are larded down with rules and regulations supporting every politician’s agenda. Minority set-asides, no lead, no cadmium, EPA, OSHA; the contracts go on for page after page unrelated to the hardware. They frequently require ludicrous, inappropriate testing. They require unrealistic failure rates; which the vendors regularly lie about. Then there’s the way they’re bought. The military may give you a five year contract, but Congress only funds it one year at a time. That means the manufacturer can’t risk investing in automation, so every item is built as a one-off.


4 posted on 11/13/2011 8:57:42 AM PST by Gen.Blather
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Heck, you can buy 10 target drones for one F16. Not such a good deal, just 3 for 1.


5 posted on 11/13/2011 9:04:41 AM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Going to the (European) market is not very easy because you are cutting the profits of some other people, it would have to compete against vastly superior aircraft
6 posted on 11/13/2011 9:16:01 AM PST by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
hummm...

7 posted on 11/13/2011 9:33:09 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Gen.Blather

The primary reason buying US arms is risky is because if America decides it doesn’t like your foreign or domestic policy, the US government is likely to cut you off from spare parts, upgrades, etc.

Buy from Russia or China and you never have to worry about that. You could massacre your own people on a daily basis, and Russian and China will sell you pretty much whatever you need as long as you can pay for it.


8 posted on 11/13/2011 10:10:44 AM PST by Longbow1969
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Pakistan, their prices are IN-SA-A-A-A-A-ANE!!!!


9 posted on 11/13/2011 10:35:05 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
"You can buy three of our aircraft for one F-16," Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar told Reuters at the Dubai Air Show, where the aircraft is being displayed.

So then why is Pakistan still wanting to buy F-16s from the US?

Sorry, rhetorical question.

10 posted on 11/13/2011 11:54:47 AM PST by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: Chode

Ehhhhh, Tomatoes...Tamatoes...;-)

You remember when they tried to upgrade the P-51 airframe back in the 80’s??? A close support aircraft designed to be sold to central and south American countries, friendly to us of course...That looked like a sweet ride as well...

I stand to be corrected, but did they call it the P/A-61??? Or something like that???

Might go take a look for it here in a while...


11 posted on 11/14/2011 4:47:11 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: Yo-Yo

Parts...???


12 posted on 11/14/2011 4:47:57 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: Chode

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer

Here it is, I was wrong on the designation in the last post...


13 posted on 11/14/2011 4:56:46 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: Chode

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang

I still like this version better...

But that rotorhead turbo engine the PA-48 uses intrigues me though...

I’d love to stop by that museum (I guess at Edwards AFB)where these aircraft are parked, just to see them...

Road TRIP!!!


14 posted on 11/14/2011 5:08:34 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64
i guess my point was, it looks like a knock off of the Tigershark...
15 posted on 11/14/2011 7:45:30 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Chode

I think yer F-20 would smoke it like a pack of Cool’s...hehehe, really I do...


16 posted on 11/14/2011 7:56:19 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64
absolutely...
17 posted on 11/14/2011 7:57:41 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
“You can buy three of our aircraft for one F-16,”

You can also lose 3 of those aircrafts to 1 F-16.

“India need not worry — it's not India-specific. We are building very close relations with India.”

I dont think India is worried at all. You can probably get 5 of those Paki aircrafts for one Eurofighter/Rafale.

18 posted on 11/14/2011 9:35:19 AM PST by ravager
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To: Chode; stevie_d_64

The JF-17 does have an American connection. It originated from a Chinese project with Grumman to upgrade their J-7 (Mig-21 copies) with Western avionics and weaponry.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

About whether the F-20 would smoke it-the two aircraft are pretty analogous in capability.


19 posted on 11/14/2011 7:21:08 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
thx... i can only hope our avionics and missile tech would tilt the scales in our favor except they are prolly using our own tech against us thanks to SlickWillie
20 posted on 11/14/2011 7:33:08 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Chode

The JF-17 is a poor man’s workhorse. It was never meant to be comparable to the heavier US fighters but you can’t underestimate it. It’s a modern day Mig-21/F-5. The Pakis are likely to integrate Western (Italian/South African) electronics on to it.


21 posted on 11/14/2011 7:50:29 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
it's a Timex...
22 posted on 11/14/2011 8:21:36 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: sukhoi-30mki; Chode; Gen.Blather; stevie_d_64; Paladin2; American in Israel; bill1952; ...
Bogey: JF-17 ‘Thunder’ crash jolts plans to sell aircraft

http://tribune.com.pk/story/291604/paf-aircraft-crashes-in-attock/

Apparently the parachute and ejection seat were also made in China.

RIP Sqn. Ldr. Hussain.

23 posted on 11/15/2011 2:21:16 AM PST by IndianChief
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To: sukhoi-30mki

I’d put one of our trained aviators in an F-20 with full AIC coverage and control, over the absolute best the Chinese/Paki’s have, in their best jet, any day of the week, night or day...


24 posted on 11/15/2011 3:59:39 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: IndianChief

I would say first, I’m sorry for the loss of an experienced pilot, but there is so much material in your post that I can’t get through it without a chuckle...


25 posted on 11/15/2011 4:02:49 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: IndianChief

The comments at that link are priceless...

“Pakistani Pilot are the best in the world...”

Ohhhhhh, Ethel, dis is the big one...I’m coming Ethel...(snicker)

Apparently the pilot ejected ok, his body was found two klicks away from the crash site...The chute failed to deploy...

Also the pilot might have been the demonstration pilot at the Farnburough Airshow last time in this aircraft...

I’d find out who the rigger was for this chute...Because I sure as hades am not going to fly till they go through and repack and certify all those systems again...

Interesting development on this thread though...

Now they are going to have to have a 4-1 sale on these things to get them to move...;-)


26 posted on 11/15/2011 4:11:58 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: IndianChief
not a good selling point... Prayers up for the pilot
27 posted on 11/15/2011 5:15:15 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: stevie_d_64
I’d put one of our trained aviators in an F-20 with full AIC coverage and control, over the absolute best the Chinese/Paki’s have, in their best jet, any day of the week, night or day...

All things being equal (i.e. the Chinese and Pakistani pilots also have AWACS, which they both do unlike the Iraqis in GW1/2), and the USAF pilot in the F-20 is facing off against a Pakistani F-16 Block50/52 (Pakistan’s best plane) or a Chinese SU-30MKK (currently the best Chinese plane), then the odds for the pilot in the TigerShark would be very slim. No chance in the BVR game, and only a small chance in the WVR environment if it gets there at all, which I doubt. The only chance the TigerShark would have is if both planes are within kissing range of each other and they try to get a gun kill, in which case the trained aviator in the TShark would have a chance of popping a gun kill due to his skill levels. Otherwise, at BVR range the monster radar of the Flanker or the advanced radar of the Blk50 Viper would already be cueing an AMRAAMSki/AMRAAM at the TigerShark. Now, put the same trained aviator in a F-15 and the Chinese/Pakistani pilots would have no chance …but a TigerShark against a Blk50 Viper and/or a Flanker? I wouldn’t take those odds.

28 posted on 11/15/2011 10:24:54 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

I still give the edge to us...Our training and situational awareness skills are far superior to anyone on the planet, pair that up with additional eyes and ears watching for things that “might” not be information the pilot may have at their disposal to disseminate...And I still hold to the original boast...hehehe

As an AIC operator in the fleet I’ve seen a lot of things that our aircrews do to get the advantage on an opponent...We provided direct intercept assistance and eyes outside the furrball for anything coming in to thwart our advantage, and that was with equal to superior opponents trained to recognize our tactics...

My AIC supervisor is a Top Gun graduate of that part of the program, and I learned a lot of things that gave all of us an advantage and good rapore with the aircrews we supported...Trust was a two-way street, and having someone you’ve worked with before and recognized the voices and inflections over the radio helps establish a second to none advantage over anyone who wanted to come up and “play” with us...

Sure the F-20 might not be the most capable platform ever, but I still hold to the experience that I know our tactics and training will defeat anyone we come up against...And lots of countries out there like China, Pakistan, and even Russia know the only real way to defeat us is to keep coming at us and hope we are “Winchester” and looking for a “Texaco”...And even then there are no assurances the calvary is not coming...

I really envy the Air Force and those F-22’s...I wish the Navy had a system like that in place right now...We’ll have to wait for that F-35 to come along, but until then the F-18’s will have to suffice, and suffice real well they do...

I still wish we had the F-14’s and F-8’s out there now...that’s how much confidense I have in those platforms...

But thats just my opinion...;-)


29 posted on 11/16/2011 4:27:29 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: stevie_d_64
No arguments and maximum respect Stevie_d_64. I will never argue with a person who has served, and especially somebody who has served in the specific area under discussion.

The only query I would raise would be the balance between skill and machine in the modern environment. The importance of the skill of the pilot versus sensor advancement and platform physics. Looking back at World War 2 and Korea it was obvious the pilot skill was key (allowing even skilled pilots in propeller planes to bring down early jet German designs like the ME-262). As we were getting towards Viet Nam technology was moving forward, but sensors and missile technology were not yet sufficiently advanced and tactics had not been fully worked out (especially in radar/BVR tactics, although the Israelis were making a lot of advancements in WVR IR missile tactics). By Gulf War One it was becoming a turkey shoot ...Iraqi planes taking off did not have a chance. They did not have any situational awareness (e.g. no AWACS), did not have proper BVR missiles, had antiquated training, did not even have radar warning receivers. They were facing off against USAF/NATO/Allied pilots that had AEWC, superior training and tactics, true BVR capability, etc. The integrated air defense network meant to protect Baghdad was a SAM system (Kari) that was a mish-mash of Soviet, French and British systems geared towards preventing an Iran-Israeli type strike (Iran due to the Iran-Iraq war, and Israel because of the strike they carried out at Osirak). That system had no chance whatsoever.

Which brings me back to my question - imagine if the USAF went against a near-peer adversary. Say a China. They have AEWC similar to AWACS, they have training that is getting better and better (a huge difference between where they were in 2000 and where they were in 2010 for instance), development of technology, sensors and weapons (e.g. their SD-10 has attributes similar to both the AMRAAM and the R-77, and while it is no AMRAAM-D it is better than the AMRAAM-A), evolving ECM, cross-eye jammers and towed-decoys that are comparable with systems in Europe, Russia and the US, etc. Some is bought, some stolen, some indigenous. This is not Iraq. Their IADS system is quite advanced, incorporating digital AESAs like the CETC Y-27 that have S-300 and HQ-9s slaved to it. By some estimates Chinese airspace is already a completely lethal environment for legacy fighters.

My question is this - the degree of pilot skill (even superlative pilot skill) in a basic platform with constrained sensors, facing off against a basic pilot in a far more advanced platform and evolved sensors ...is the skill enough? If you took the most basic pilot (competent enough to fly, but definitely not the brightest bulb in the lot) and put him in a F-22 ...and then took the sharpest knife in the drawer, a pilot that could make angels bleed, and stuck him in a Corsair ...would his skill even have a chance to exert itself before he got blown away from 50 miles off?

Hence my statement on the F-20 versus (say) F-16 block 50. The very best USAF pilot in the Tiger Shark, versus the very best Pakistani pilot in the Viper-50. The very best Pakistani pilot will not be as good as the American one, but he will still be very good since the Pakistani airforce is a professional outfit. He is flying an airframe that has sensors that are far better than those of the Tiger Shark, and has a reach that is true BVR. Unless the Pakistani was foolish enough to get into the merge and try to do a Top-Gun close-quarters gun-kill type of engagement ...and in such a scenario even a Raptor can get killed (there are two cases I know off where a F-22 got 'killed,' and I believe one was by a F-18 SuperBug and the other a EF-18 Growler ...although in both cases we don't know the specifics, and it is possible that they had been 'killed' several times before they got the lucky shot). I agree that close-in the skills of (say) the Top Gun graduate in a F-20 (or even the more basic F-5) may enable him to get a good chance of killing F-16, but would he get the chance?

Anyways, just open speculation. Have a blessed day.

30 posted on 11/16/2011 7:04:54 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

I see your point...But look at it this way...

Most US aircrews are taught to be flyers first, they get really good doing that, then the impetus is to become mission managers...

A lot of push button stuff happens at that point, and of course to old school fighting aspect of the platform they fly is still there, but we have so dominated the training and implementation of a well rounded approach to a mission or task, that it is somewhat unlikely a 1 vs 1, or more, would occur...And besides, the strike packages are protected mostly by folks who are dedicated to that particular task on a mission...

It is a very dynamic approach to the whole air war philosophy that some of that was beyond my training or experience...And again, our country owns the school that teaches it...

BTW, you’re not arguing with me at all...Both of us have a distinct interest in these issues, and as far as I am concerned discussing these things is what makes it fun to hang out around here...


31 posted on 11/16/2011 7:24:16 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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