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Irish irate as Bundestag sees budget first
The Local ^ | 18 Nov 11 10:39 CET

Posted on 11/18/2011 2:55:26 PM PST by Olog-hai

The Irish and German governments became entangled in a spat on Thursday after details of the Irish budget were given to the German Bundestag, before being presented to the Irish parliament, the Dáil.

The sensitive plans, including a two-percent increase in the top value added tax (VAT) and a €100 household tax, were sent by the German finance ministry—along with a letter of intent from the Irish Finance Minister—to the Bundestag budgetary committee.

This provoked outrage in Ireland, and denials from Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny that he had given the information to the Germans.

Irish opposition parties said if reports were true that the document was seen in the German parliament, it would represent a "staggering breach of faith" which suggested Germany was "now pulling the strings," the Irish Times daily newspaper reported. …

(Excerpt) Read more at thelocal.de ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Germany
KEYWORDS: default; eurotrash; globalismfalling; italy; limeypropaganda; noempire; piigs; seeya
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Any faux conservatives here that want to give the USA's federal budget to the Bundestag to review before our House of Representatives even sees it . . . ? Is love of the social market and hatred of the free market so pervasive?
1 posted on 11/18/2011 2:55:28 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

PM Kenny better watch his six.


2 posted on 11/18/2011 3:01:00 PM PST by EEGator
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To: Olog-hai

You must really hate Germany for some reason. It’s all you ever seem to post. Why?


3 posted on 11/18/2011 3:02:47 PM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: EEGator

Looks like Germany is calling the shots in Europe. They may well be forced to rule all of Europe if the like it or not.


4 posted on 11/18/2011 3:04:11 PM PST by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Olog-hai

Well I guess the Irish know who runs their show now. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Irresponsibility leads to loss of control over your destiny. The Irish have a new master now.


5 posted on 11/18/2011 3:06:34 PM PST by Opinionated Blowhard ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

I don’t see how any of this will end well. Even if the politicians concede, the people will become furious.


6 posted on 11/18/2011 3:09:59 PM PST by EEGator
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To: Moltke

You must really hate Germany for some reason. It’s all you ever seem to post. Why?
That's a very immature thing to say, WADR. Why is it hatred of Germany to post about what their government is up to? Should I lie about it, ignore it or cover it up instead—and would doing so be love of Germany by comparison?

No, it's not all I post about. I think you can do a search of my posts to see what else I post about. But whether you like it or not, it's big news.
7 posted on 11/18/2011 3:14:58 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: EEGator

This will not end well. What happens when the Germans start to enact economic plans for Europe—for their own good. The nations will have a choice—break free of the EU or bow to German rule. Maybe this is fated to happen—WW II only delayed the process of history.


8 posted on 11/18/2011 3:16:09 PM PST by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Moltke

“You must really hate Germany for some reason.”

I really doubt if he hates Germany. Who would oversee our budget if there were a “One World Currency”? The UN? Who going to call the shot if there were a “One World Government”? Your answer is what Socialist are working toward. The Socialist will start a war with the Middle East. Mark my words.


9 posted on 11/18/2011 3:19:19 PM PST by steveab (When was the last time someone tried to sell you a CO2 induced climate control system for your home?)
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

Well I guess the Irish know who runs their show now. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Irresponsibility leads to loss of control over your destiny. The Irish have a new master now
To hell with respecting sovereignty then?
10 posted on 11/18/2011 3:19:45 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

I have no clue why the Bundestag would have to see this document before the Dáil. But maybe it has to do with German banks having loaned so much money to the Republic of Ireland?

Just asking, but still puzzled by this action...


11 posted on 11/18/2011 3:24:05 PM PST by Roadgeek
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To: Roadgeek

I have no clue why the Bundestag would have to see this document before the Dáil. But maybe it has to do with German banks having loaned so much money to the Republic of Ireland? Just asking, but still puzzled by this action...
You should indeed find this action puzzling. I don't know of any precedent that justifies this, not even lending money to Ireland's government. As much as the Irish bloviate about Britain's rule being draconian (not that too many living today actually lived under it), they had representatives (MPs) in the Westminster parliament that could do something—not so over in Germany. (They even have representatives in the toy parliament in Brussels, for whatever that's worth.) This is something new and dangerous, AFAICS.
12 posted on 11/18/2011 3:29:27 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

I don’t know, but who may have leaked this information to the Bundestag? Maybe the Irish PM did so - as a sign of goodwill. But if not, there must be a mole in the Dáil, right?


13 posted on 11/18/2011 3:29:30 PM PST by Roadgeek
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To: Roadgeek

But the Irish Times, which has seen the document, said giving the information to the Bundestag was in line with German guidelines for participation in the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) – the German budgetary committee has to approve proposals to increase income and reduce spending before each bailout tranche can be released.

“What’s happened is the federal government meeting its legal information to inform the Bundestag about the EFSF,” one committee member told the Irish Times.


14 posted on 11/18/2011 3:29:44 PM PST by EEGator
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To: Roadgeek

I don’t know, but who may have leaked this information to the Bundestag? Maybe the Irish PM did so - as a sign of goodwill
If we owed Germany money (and we do via treasury securities), would you regard it as "goodwill" if the POTUS or some other US government officer leaked our federal budget to the Bundestag? or would you regard it as an act of treason?
15 posted on 11/18/2011 3:32:22 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
To hell with respecting sovereignty then?

When you go begging for a handout to another country, then yes, to Hell with respecting sovereignty. Its just like anything else. You want someone to give you money, you have to obey their wishes or else you don't get the money.

16 posted on 11/18/2011 3:33:30 PM PST by Opinionated Blowhard ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: Olog-hai
Any faux conservatives here that want to give the USA's federal budget to the Bundestag to review before our House of Representatives even sees it . . . ?

Why would we? The Germans are starting to own Europe with all the bail out money. I don't see a problem with this. Ireland is fully at fault for their circumstance.

17 posted on 11/18/2011 3:34:00 PM PST by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: EEGator

But the Irish Times, which has seen the document, said giving the information to the Bundestag was in line with German guidelines for participation in the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF)
The Irish Times used to have the reputation of being pro-British and pro-Protestant in the past. Nowadays, they're staunchly pro-European Union and are the equivalent of Soviet Правда.
18 posted on 11/18/2011 3:35:31 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

When you go begging for a handout to another country
That's not what happened. And there are no handouts—there are loans with ridiculous strings attached.

then yes, to Hell with respecting sovereignty
I take it that you are against the republican form of government and the free market then, and are in favor of technocratic authoritarianism and the social market? because that's what you just endorsed with that attitude. You also just endorsed the takeover of the USA by Red China.
19 posted on 11/18/2011 3:38:00 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Lazlo in PA

Why would we? The Germans are starting to own Europe with all the bail out money. I don't see a problem with this
Then you haven't learned a single thing from history. You're also endorsing technocratic authoritarianism and the social market over the republican form of government and the free market, never mind the revival of colonialism/imperialism through predatory coercive lending in tandem with authoritarian technocracy and the social market.
20 posted on 11/18/2011 3:41:11 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Thanks for the info. I was just quoting the article about the question asked by the poster.


21 posted on 11/18/2011 3:42:02 PM PST by EEGator
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To: Olog-hai

Nah, our budgets get reviewed by Beijing.


22 posted on 11/18/2011 3:44:37 PM PST by Freedom_Is_Not_Free (We be fooked.)
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To: EEGator

Thanks for the info. I was just quoting the article about the question asked by the poster
No problem. The IT was one of the biggest voices in favor of voting "Yes" to the Treaty of Lisbon in the second referendum back in 2009 (the first referendum wasn't good enough for the elites to respect because it was a "no" vote, so they beefed up their propaganda campaign to induce the Irish to vote the "right" way—and of course, now that happened, no more votes). And since that time, the EU legislated habeas corpus away and threw in a bunch of other directives bent at centralizing governmental functions . . . and now even that façade of federal rule has been stripped away, showing Berlin to be the true leader of the bloc.
23 posted on 11/18/2011 3:46:00 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: All

So? I imagine the American president has run his budget past the Chinese government, at least Germany is theoretically on our side.


24 posted on 11/18/2011 3:46:12 PM PST by Peter ODonnell
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To: Olog-hai

If the Irish wanted sovereignty they would not have signed it away n Maastricht.


25 posted on 11/18/2011 3:46:21 PM PST by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Moltke

Germany has a right to see the Irish budget because Ireland is in debt to them. One day the ChiComs will demand to see ours. When you are a degenerate borrower this is what happens


26 posted on 11/18/2011 3:46:54 PM PST by dennisw (I heard the old man laughing What good is a used up world and how could it be worth having-Sting)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Nah, our budgets get reviewed by Beijing
If so, then not openly as with this here example.
27 posted on 11/18/2011 3:47:15 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

So in your Liberal thinking, Ireland should just get the cash with no strings attached for repayment. The mortgage holder on my home can force me to buy insurance on the property to make sure they don’t lose their collateral. I see what Germany is doing the same way. Looking out for their collateral. If the Irish screw up the country, there will obviously be a default. Where is your scorn of the welfare state Ireland created to get them to this point?

How else would you liked this to be handled? War?


28 posted on 11/18/2011 3:48:56 PM PST by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: Straight Vermonter

If the Irish wanted sovereignty they would not have signed it away n Maastricht
The propaganda campaigns concealed the fact that it was being signed away; they really thought that the EU was a union of democracy with every member state getting an equal voice. Certainly nobody suspected that sovereignty was being ceded to Berlin, right?
29 posted on 11/18/2011 3:49:07 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

I would consider it utterly strange, yes indeed.

But being very much in debt to one single creditor nation may have caused it.
As I said, maybe the mole wanted to present the Irish budget to the Bundestag in order to show their reliability as a creditor? Thus, a goodwill sign?


30 posted on 11/18/2011 3:52:31 PM PST by Roadgeek
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To: Lazlo in PA

So in your Liberal thinking, Ireland should just get the cash with no strings attached for repayment. The mortgage holder on my home can force me to buy insurance on the property to make sure they don’t lose their collateral. I see what Germany is doing the same way. Looking out for their collateral. If the Irish screw up the country, there will obviously be a default. Where is your scorn of the welfare state Ireland created to get them to this point?
Since you're the one endorsing the social market and authoritarian technocracy over the free market and republican government, you must be the liberal here.

Not only do you turn a blind eye to the fact that these loans were forced on Ireland and other countries, but that the terms of repayment are utterly immoral (not that any of us got to see them). None of the countries have "screwed up" to the point that they should default on a fairly-negotiated loan—none of those countries have such a history. And why should all of these loans have been preceded by the fall of all of the recipient countries' national governments? You really think that they're all so incompetent?!?—wow, they all became very incompetent within a very short period of time, and all at the same time, but even as ridiculous as that notion is, you're taking that for granted. Are you even observing what's going on over there, or are you taking the propaganda of the social marketeers for gospel?

And remember, one of the things that Germany's trying to push Ireland to do is raise its corporate tax rate. Why would they do that? Do they fear having any other country in Europe becoming strong enough to challenge their dominance? That's not conducive to free-market economics.

You're endorsing very anti-American politics here, not to mention politics that liberals would think nothing of giving assent to. Think carefully about that.
31 posted on 11/18/2011 3:57:53 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Lazlo in PA

Thank you very much for giving me the proper English words :-)

Yes, in Germany some banking people (and many average citizens whose money is in the banks) were really afraid of a default, and my theory is that the Irish budget was leaked (or deliberately showed?) to the Bundestag as a proof of Ireland having the best intentions and doing her best to ensure a repayment.

However, it’s nearly 1 a.m. here, and I’m beginning to struggle with English, so I shall turn in now.
See you soon.


32 posted on 11/18/2011 4:01:28 PM PST by Roadgeek
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To: dennisw

Germany has a right to see the Irish budget because Ireland is in debt to them. One day the ChiComs will demand to see ours. When you are a degenerate borrower this is what happens
So you think that China has the right to see the USA's budget before Congress gets to see it? A communist country that's our enemy?

You seem to have a very dim view of national sovereignty, even the USA's sovereignty.

And if you did the tiniest bit of research, you'd actually find out that none of the countries that ostensibly owe Germany these loans are "degenerate borrowers" in any way, shape or form. Stop listening to liberal propaganda.
33 posted on 11/18/2011 4:03:19 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Roadgeek

Yes, in Germany some banking people (and many average citizens whose money is in the banks) were really afraid of a default, and my theory is that the Irish budget was leaked (or deliberately showed?) to the Bundestag as a proof of Ireland having the best intentions and doing her best to ensure a repayment
You didn't answer my question as to whether you think some other country's government should see the USA's budget before Congress does. Would any conservative tolerate such a thing happening?
34 posted on 11/18/2011 4:04:49 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Lazlo in PA
Not only that, Germany has no less of a welfare state than Ireland—in fact, theirs is a great deal bigger. Social market economy, remember.
35 posted on 11/18/2011 4:17:36 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: wolfman23601

Owed you a ping.


36 posted on 11/18/2011 4:20:38 PM PST by Olog-hai
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37 posted on 11/18/2011 4:29:01 PM PST by RedMDer (Forward With Confidence!)
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To: Olog-hai
>To hell with respecting sovereignty then?

LOL - you can't be serious. Or maybe you are and not being disingenuous

The entire intent of the EU & particularly of the Euro is to diminish national sovereignty and subsume it into am European Union governed de facto by unelected bureaucrats.

And they thought what exactly would happen?
The entire world knew this

38 posted on 11/18/2011 4:31:34 PM PST by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: Olog-hai

The failing welfare states of Europe need to understand that if Hansel and Gretel are going to bail their worthless posteriors out, Hansel and Gretel are going to demand fiscal authority.

Of course, Hansel and Gretel would rather have nothing to do with a bailout, but the Eurocrat facists in Brussels and across the continent are demanding it.

This is really rather funny.


39 posted on 11/18/2011 4:51:44 PM PST by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: bill1952

The entire intent of the EU & particularly of the Euro is to diminish national sovereignty and subsume it into am European Union governed de facto by unelected bureaucrats.

And they thought what exactly would happen?
The entire world knew this
Not some of the FR "conservatives", apparently. They seem to be cheering on the reconstruction of a German empire within Europe, built on the social market economy and technocracy never mind economic blackmail. That's my point. You're preaching to the choir by pointing that out to me.
40 posted on 11/18/2011 4:53:55 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: achilles2000

The failing welfare states of Europe need to understand that if Hansel and Gretel are going to bail their worthless posteriors out, Hansel and Gretel are going to demand fiscal authority
Um, "Hansel and Gretel" (if you mean Germany's government) are running the largest welfare state on that continent themselves. Not to mention having a welfare state is part of the treaties on European Union. Nobody wanted to get bailed out—or did you not notice that every country that got a bailout loan had their governments fall before they got them?

Looks like the literacy rate regarding the EU is at an all-time low.

Of course, Hansel and Gretel would rather have nothing to do with a bailout
No, the German citizenry want nothing to do with bailout out other countries, not that the government is doing it, but instead issuing loans (still against the will of German citizens, and against the will of the citizens of the recipient countries). Lots of things happening here that do not make sense, and none of the above countries' economies were in trouble until the ECB started playing with interest rates.

Time to learn some background and stop listening to liberal propaganda. (Why must I repeat myself over and over?)
41 posted on 11/18/2011 5:00:33 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
You're endorsing very anti-American politics here

Of course I am. It isn't America. It's Europe. Why should I care how they conduct themselves. The train left the station for them when they decided to create the EU.

42 posted on 11/18/2011 5:02:25 PM PST by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: Lazlo in PA

Of course I am. It isn't America. It's Europe. Why should I care how they conduct themselves
That's the very attitude of the people who re-elected Woodrow Wilson on the platform slogan "He Kept Us Out Of War". Much as I dislike TR's progressive politics, he at least was a hawk that saw that the USA could be a great force for good on the world stage—and when he heard that campaign slogan, and about how Wilson was writing notes to the Kaiser begging him not to have his U-boats fire torpedoes on ships carrying Americans, he did say the following:
I was president for 7½ years, and if I were president now, I would send the Kaiser just one note—and he would know that I meant it.
That isolationist attitude that re-elected Wilson didn't keep us out of WWII either. I don't want war, but Germany's becoming more and more belligerent and even hawkish. This'll end up on the USA's front porch again. German elites have been blaming "the Anglo-Saxon model" of economics for the 2008 crash—which is open racism against British and Americans—and positing their social market as the solution, even on a global scale.
43 posted on 11/18/2011 5:12:51 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

The more socialist PIIGS should cut their government spending, become more productive, and stop whining for more money from Germany and France.


44 posted on 11/18/2011 5:26:07 PM PST by familyop ("Don't worry, they'll row for a month before they figure out I'm fakin' it." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: Olog-hai

Check your calender. It is 2011. We are far more involve in world politics than we should ever be in comparison to back then. To argue for more intervention when we need attention with out own affairs is silly. Good luck selling this to a war weary electorate.

What exactly is the threat to the United States here? You seem to be tap dancing around the fact that you hate Germany for some reason. Personally Iran and China are countries that peek my interest, not the inter workings of a financial deal in the EU.


45 posted on 11/18/2011 5:26:24 PM PST by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: familyop

The more socialist PIIGS should cut their government spending, become more productive, and stop whining for more money from Germany and France
Not only do you parrot German racism (or is it out of the Koran? since it sounds so similar to how the "prophet" labels Jews as "apes and pigs"), but you also ignore the fact that Germany is more socialist than the countries that they forced "bailout" loans on. And the social market economy is required according to the Treaties on European Union. Get some background and stop relying on propaganda.
46 posted on 11/18/2011 5:38:46 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Lazlo in PA

Check your calender. It is 2011. We are far more involve in world politics than we should ever be in comparison to back then. To argue for more intervention when we need attention with out own affairs is silly. Good luck selling this to a war weary electorate
That's a very liberal post, and one that starts with a fallacious accusation of anachronism. The USA cannot survive without a coherent foreign policy. Isolationism on the USA's part let belligerent powers rise twice before, and the same thing is happening again now that the USA is turning inward. The rest of the world doesn't disappear because the USA ignores it. Those that we get into wars with happen to have economic and social models that are drastically different from ours, and they've already stated that they hold enmity with our models of same (and a false accusation that the "Anglo-Saxon" economic model caused the 2008 financial meltdown when it was actually their social market model). Churchill taught us that appeasing such beasts in the hope that they'll eat us last is futile.

What exactly is the threat to the United States here? You seem to be tap dancing around the fact that you hate Germany for some reason. Personally Iran and China are countries that peek my interest, not the inter workings of a financial deal in the EU
Leaking the details of your national budget to another country's parliament is hardly the "interworkings of a financial deal".

But speaking of Iran, Germany's been one of their staunchest partners for years. Even with the strong anti-Iran talk out of them of late, they still trade heavily with Iran. As for China, have you noticed that even with the occasional backpedaling, they are shifting towards building up the euro into the world's reserve currency? If that undermines the dollar, you can expect a radical fall in your standard of living.

Speaking up about Germany doing something they ought not to do is not hating them; on the contrary.
47 posted on 11/18/2011 5:49:19 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Southern Europe and its most socialist social friends are defaulting, repudiating and on their way out of the EMU. Get over it. Italy should accept the market’s control of bond yields and collapses. No bailouts! And BTW, fascism originated there.


48 posted on 11/18/2011 5:56:11 PM PST by familyop ("Don't worry, they'll row for a month before they figure out I'm fakin' it." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: Olog-hai

I love the smell of commie globalism burning in the morning. No empire. Too bad.


49 posted on 11/18/2011 6:07:09 PM PST by familyop ("Don't worry, they'll row for a month before they figure out I'm fakin' it." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: familyop

I love the smell of commie globalism burning in the morning. No empire. Too bad
Better hope that Germany doesn't build it then, and don't help them along in spirit.
50 posted on 11/18/2011 6:11:21 PM PST by Olog-hai
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