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Man killed by his own concealed weapon
timesdispatch.com ^ | 18 Nov 2011 | Mark Bowes

Posted on 11/20/2011 8:51:58 PM PST by smokingfrog

A Spotsylvania County man with a valid concealed-weapon permit died after a semi-automatic pistol without an external safety discharged as he tried to adjust the weapon, which was tucked into his waistband, investigators have concluded.

The 45-year-old man was sitting in the front seat of his family's minivan in a shopping center parking lot on Sunday when his .40-caliber Glock discharged, authorities said.

"For some reason, maybe for comfort, he reached out and went to adjust it," said Spotsylvania sheriff's Capt. Liz Scott. "The detective thinks that in doing so — in just grabbing it — he inadvertently grabbed the trigger."

"This particular weapon does not have an external safety," Scott added.

The single shot struck the man in the hip and he bled to death in a matter of minutes, the captain said.

The incident is at least the second in Virginia in 15 months in which a concealed-carry permit holder accidentally shot himself in public.

On Sept. 11, 2010, a Bedford County man with a permit accidentally shot himself in the thigh at a Lynchburg restaurant as he apparently reached into his pants pocket to pay a bartender for a beer. The .45-caliber Glock 36 was unholstered. Permit holders are not permitted to drink alcohol in restaurants while carrying a concealed weapon.

The man was later convicted of recklessly handing a firearm, given a 30-day suspended jail sentence and fined $500. He also was ordered to give up his concealed-carry permit for a year.

In the Spotsylvania case, police said the victim was sitting inside his family's van with his four children outside the Giant grocery store in the Harrison Crossing shopping center.

(Excerpt) Read more at 2.timesdispatch.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: banglist; concealedcarry; gunsafety
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To: smokingfrog

Never, ever, ever, ever carry a loaded Glock without a holster.


101 posted on 11/21/2011 4:07:19 AM PST by Kent1957
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To: donmeaker

Your old Navy .44 reminds me of using a car as a defensive weapon. It gets them the first time if your aim is true, but it takes so darn long to reload.


102 posted on 11/21/2011 4:16:53 AM PST by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: AnalogReigns
What do those Freepers with a CC permit say?

My preferred CC weapon is a SiG p232 in .380, 7+1 and decocked. I sometimes carry a S&W snubbie revolver loaded with .38 Special +P as circumstances direct. In both cases, I use holsters (shoulder, pocket, IWB, etc.)


Advantage SiG p232: comfortable CC carry and shooting.

Advantage S&W snubbie: Point and click (boom) interface.

103 posted on 11/21/2011 4:31:54 AM PST by Jonah Hex ("To Serve Manatee" is a cookbook!)
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To: AnalogReigns
Depends on the gun... Condition One is recommended carry on a Kimber Crimson Carry II. I would not carry a semi without a grip safety and a thumb safety... unless it was designed as a double action first round weapon (think Smith and Wesson).

LLS

104 posted on 11/21/2011 4:55:35 AM PST by LibLieSlayer ("Americans are hungry to feel once again a sense of mission and greatness." Ronaldo Magnus)
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To: AnalogReigns

The “hard and fast” rule is that if your gun does not have a safety, never chamber a round unless you are in the process of firing it or in the case that you think you will need to use it immediately if attacked...and that only applies in very special circumstances.


105 posted on 11/21/2011 4:56:01 AM PST by DH (Once the tainted finger of government touches anything the rot begins)
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To: AnalogReigns

With respect to safety, a Glock is functionally the same as a revolver. Would you carry a double action revolver with the hammer on an empty chamber? Most people would not, prefering to be able to simply pull the trigger to get cartridge ignition. Understand what you are carrying, and the safety laws will follow. A 1911 carried cocked and locked looks dangerous and scary to the uninitiated, but only because the hammer is exposed. Functionally, it is as safe as any other semi-auto with an external safety. My vote is to always have a round in the chamber and adopt the right safety rules.


106 posted on 11/21/2011 4:57:31 AM PST by Pecos (O.K., joke's over. Time to bring back the Constitution.)
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To: smokingfrog

Tragic...


107 posted on 11/21/2011 5:22:03 AM PST by Caipirabob ( Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: basil
Get to the range often and practice, practice, practice is what we preach to the ladies we teach in our Second Amendment Sister classes.

Unless its a Fun House or a 270 combat range, all ranges won't allow anything near real practice. I submit that any traditional range time is developing and reinforcing very bad habits or "anti-patterns".

Crims worthy of shooting are not going to be standing centered, straight and motionless exactly seven yards away in excellent lighting calmly allowing you to stand without cover or concealment in front of a yellow line, with already unholstered weapon in your strong hand forming a textbook stance and forming a clear sight picture before squeezing off a round in center mass, pausing a second and delivering remaining rounds. (Eagle Peak discourages "rapid fire" and is thus a worthless pistol range suitable only for zeroing rifles)

True practice would be in a high stress environment, with rounds heading your way, shooting while on the move, with an off-hand while ducking for cover while your subject is also running ducking and hiding in bad lighting. Even IPSC or IPDA is far from reality since no one has to shoot a dozen gouls hiding in your house.

You want practice? Paint Ball.

108 posted on 11/21/2011 5:36:20 AM PST by The Theophilus (Obama's Key to win 2012: Ban Haloperidol)
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To: cpdiii
snarky comments aside, please tell me you go outside EVERYTIME you lower the 1911 hammer on a live round...if not, arrogance will quite possibly catch up to ya someday...

that said, Prayers up for the 4 kids who got their eardrums spiked, then watched in horror as their father bled out while screaming for his life...

brady and bloomy prolly got 4 new members of their sick cults for this guys foolish notion that he knew what he was doing was 'safe' enuff...

109 posted on 11/21/2011 5:53:55 AM PST by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: smokingfrog
It's called a “negligent discharge” and it's caused by “operator error.” Anyone who carries a Glock tucked in their waist band has not been properly trained in the use of the Glock or has chosen to ignore basic safety precautions inherent to using the Glock pistol.

Glocks have a “trigger safety” and you can drop it off a 4 story building, loaded w/a cartridge in the chamber and It WILL NOT discharge; but, if you put your finger on the trigger or allow some object to be forced against the front of the trigger; the safety disengages and it goes “bang!” That's why any standard factory Glock (except some South American variants which were specially ordered w/a standard safety) requires a holster that covers the trigger/trigger guard.

There is absolutely nothing wrong w/a Glock if it is used and carried properly including "carry" w/a "round" in the chamber ...except Glocks are damned ugly! (Yeah, I own one.)

110 posted on 11/21/2011 6:13:23 AM PST by Ozymandias Ghost
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To: Molon Labbie

Ah, we have a winner! Thanx for pointing that out, so many forget a working brain is necessary.


111 posted on 11/21/2011 6:40:09 AM PST by 556x45
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To: smokingfrog

Must have hit a major artery.


112 posted on 11/21/2011 6:53:31 AM PST by Huck (LIBERTY is the object.)
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To: Professional Engineer

Darwin award ping


113 posted on 11/21/2011 6:53:52 AM PST by Peanut Gallery
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To: Pecos
To: AnalogReigns
“With respect to safety, a Glock is functionally the same as a revolver.”

While I agree w/your comments on the safety of a “cocked and locked” .45 ACP, the accuracy of the above quote regarding the Glock safety system depends on how you define “functionally,”

If you mean that both double action revolvers and Glocks will discharge if you pull the trigger w/sufficient force; I agree; however, the Glock Gen 4 pistols have a 3-part safety system;

1. Trigger
2. Drop
3. Firing Pin Block

See page 9 of the below linked .pdf file for a diagram of the Glock Safety System:

Link: www.glock.com/downloads/GLOCK_Gen4_en.pdf

I am not aware of any revolvers that have the same type of three-part, redundant safety system as the Glock.

114 posted on 11/21/2011 7:10:02 AM PST by Ozymandias Ghost
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To: smokingfrog
In the Spotsylvania case, police said the victim was sitting inside his family's van with his four children outside the Giant grocery store in the Harrison Crossing shopping center.

Oh, how horrible for those kids.

115 posted on 11/21/2011 7:49:37 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: AnalogReigns
To carry a pistol with a CHAMBERED round in it, I believe—is contrary to all safety training.

Not at all. Many guns are completely safe that way, even with the hammer back and locked. In this case I'd be more inclined to blame carelessness/lack of a good holster.

116 posted on 11/21/2011 7:51:23 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: Ozymandias Ghost

Two comments: While the trigger pull force might be the same on the Glock and revolvers, 10 lbs or so, the length of the trigger pull is much longer on most DA revolvers than the Glock. This makes the DA revolver somewhat “safer” IMHO.

Ruger (and I think Taurus) have transfer bar safeties which prevent the revolver from firing unless the trigger is completely depressed. I believe this provides the same resistance to drops or partial trigger pulls as does the Glock.


117 posted on 11/21/2011 8:11:00 AM PST by rrebo
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To: Ozymandias Ghost

This was not a dump on Glock. I own and use one. I know about their internal mechanics. I was simply addressing the issue of “one in the chamber, or not”.


118 posted on 11/21/2011 8:15:25 AM PST by Pecos (O.K., joke's over. Time to bring back the Constitution.)
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To: Billthedrill
Pretty much depends on location and threat level.

Around the house, condition 2, at work, condition 2, while driving, mostly condition 2.

When on foot, questionable areas (when necc to be there), usually condition 1.

Being aware of surroundings at all times much more important than condition or type of carry.

119 posted on 11/21/2011 8:20:41 AM PST by going hot (Happiness is a momma deuce)
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To: AnalogReigns
I carry with a chambered round and the safety on. If I don't pull the trigger, it doesn't go off.

Of course, I don't carry a Glock either. None of the Glocks I've fired feel right in my hands.

120 posted on 11/21/2011 8:37:10 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: AnalogReigns

I see just the opposite and have hand a lot of experience in the military. When I carry, it’s always holstered, round in the pipe.


121 posted on 11/21/2011 9:12:22 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: Talisker

“That’s why, out of tens of millions of Glocks, there’s so many accidental firings... oh, wait a minute... “

There actually have been. New York City even had the trigger changed because of it. Don’t even try to claim there are no NDs with Glocks.


122 posted on 11/21/2011 9:17:54 AM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Jagdgewehr

“The difference here is I always carry in the proper holster. Always.”

Exactly. All firearms can be a hazard if carried commando. Safeties have been known to disengage.


123 posted on 11/21/2011 9:18:46 AM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: DocH

“Don’t need a mechanical safety IF you realize your BRAIN is your primary safety with ANY weapon.”

And if YOU had a brain you’d realize humans make mistakes, hence the term “safety”.


124 posted on 11/21/2011 9:20:19 AM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Rodney Dangerfield

“I know, off topic and I don’t want to turn this into a pissing contest between the 9mm and the .45, but it is expensive to shoot and become proficient with a .45”

OK, then why make such a stupid statement if you don’t want a pissing contest?


125 posted on 11/21/2011 9:21:59 AM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: 21twelve

My fiancee’ bought his XDM for the same reason.

Although the pull through on a Glock is so hard I can’t believe you could discharge it accidentally.


126 posted on 11/21/2011 9:43:15 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: rrebo
No argument from me on the difference in the length of trigger pull for the Glock vs a double action revolver or most of the DAO/DA-1st-Shot semiautos that I have fired.

Note: Standard trigger pull is rated at around 5.5 lbs for the stock “out of the box” Glock. (”NY Trigger”)

As to whether the shorter length of the Glock’s trigger pull is less safe than a revolver at 10 lbs; I suppose to some extent that is a subjective judgment; depending upon how well trained the shooter is. There are also trade-offs for safety vs accuracy w/the longer/heavier trigger pull ...which, I suppose, also has safety implications if one considers the possibility of collateral damage in a high stress, self defense situation.

Personally, I think it is best to rely upon good training; i.e.: keeping the tip of one’s trigger finger rested against the frame of the Glock just above the trigger guard. If my finger goes inside the trigger guard it is because I intend to shoot something.

Here's a link to a good discussion on the Glock trigger pull issue you allude to. It has some interesting data from actual measurements:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209982/

127 posted on 11/21/2011 9:57:02 AM PST by Ozymandias Ghost
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To: Pecos
“This was not a dump on Glock. I own and use one. I know about their internal mechanics. I was simply addressing the issue of ‘one in the chamber, or not.’”

Understood. No worries.

Regards,

-Geoff

128 posted on 11/21/2011 10:04:39 AM PST by Ozymandias Ghost
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To: AnalogReigns
To carry a pistol with a CHAMBERED round in it, is the only way to be sure that it will go "BANG" when I need it to.
129 posted on 11/21/2011 10:08:26 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Pecos
"... With respect to safety, a Glock is functionally the same as a revolver."

Only if we're talking about a single-action revolver with the hammer cocked.

With respect to safety, a Glock is not the same as a double-action revolver that's not cocked.

130 posted on 11/21/2011 11:10:11 AM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: All
Horrible, tragic story, RIP and condolences to his family.

As has been stated already, striker-fired and SA autopistols in general and Glocks in particular are not the best choice for carry in any fashion that leaves the trigger guard exposed.

An "external" safety can be easily and unintentionally deactivated IWB, and is no panacea compared to a true DAO auto or revolver.

Ultimately, if you IWB or deep conceal, consider a holster or true DAO.

131 posted on 11/21/2011 2:10:05 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: CodeToad
Shooting since 8, 13 years active duty USMC with combat and competition shooting, always shot high expert.

I DO have a brain, and that is why, with ALL of the weapons handling and shooting I've dome all of these years, I have NEVER had a negligent discharge (there is no such thing as an accidental discharge).

This guy was a dumbass, plain and simple.

132 posted on 11/21/2011 6:54:53 PM PST by DocH (Official Right-Wing Extremist Veteran Seal Of Approval)
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To: The KG9 Kid

If you have a round in the Glock chamber (which normally gets there by virtue of the slide stripping a round out of the magazine) and rounds in all chambers of a revolver, then pulling the trigger on either firearm will result in a bang. Any belief in “safe action” beyond that point requires too many fairy tale best wishes for my comfort. I have, and use, Glocks, but Mr. Glock isn’t going to be there to comfort my family if I rely too much on his marketing abilities.

Going back to the original story, my guess is that somehow the Glock trigger was pulled.


133 posted on 11/22/2011 4:34:34 AM PST by Pecos (O.K., joke's over. Time to bring back the Constitution.)
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To: Pecos
"... If you have a round in the Glock chamber (which normally gets there by virtue of the slide stripping a round out of the magazine) and rounds in all chambers of a revolver, then pulling the trigger on either firearm will result in a bang."

Activating the trigger on a Glock is easier than the trigger on a double-action revolver.

Just here in the FR archive, there are numerous recorded incidents of Glock mishandling negligent discharges that would not likely happen with a double-action revolver and would never happen with an Hk P7 automatic.

A Glock is mechanically engineered to not be able to be a confidently prevented from accidental/negligent discharge as other competing designs with features such as grip safeties and DA/SA trigger operation.

Those who carry Glocks for CCW need to honestly understand they're carrying a cocked single-action pistol. The Glock was intended as a military sidearm using a military holster, not a dedicated CCW piece like a S&W Model 36 or a Colt Detective Special.

I often carry a Glock 19.

134 posted on 11/22/2011 9:08:10 AM PST by The KG9 Kid
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