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Germany unmoved by French pleas for more ECB action
The Telegraph ^ | 11/24/2011 | Louise Armitstead

Posted on 11/24/2011 10:56:50 PM PST by bruinbirdman

French appeals for Germany to sanction extra powers for the European Central Bank have been firmly rejected, despite warnings from politicians, economists and even the Vatican that it is the only way of "averting a catastrophe".


Italian premier Mario Monti (right) pledged to balance the budget by 2013 - but failed to prevent the country's 10-year
bonds from closing in the danger zone again at 7.13pc

Angela Merkel was unmoved by another roller-coaster day that saw Portuguese debt being downgraded to junk status, Italian bond yields pushed into the bail-out zone, and doubts cast over France's AAA rating: the German Chancellor refused to allow the ECB to become Europe's lender of last resort.

Ms Merkel instead used a three-way summit with France and Italy in Strasbourg to insist that new treaty powers to intervene and punish sinner states remained the key focus of Europe's rescue efforts. She said: "The countries who don't keep to the stability pact have to be punished – those who contravene it need to be penalised. We need to make sure this doesn't happen again."

Even suggestions that the ECB could extend longer loans to countries over a period of up to three years appeared to be ruled out. Ms Merkel said: "The ECB is independent, the modification of the treaty does not concern the ECB, which is dealing with monetary policy and financial stability. We are worried about a fiscal policy. It's a very different chapter. It has nothing to do with the European bank."

But at the start of the day, Jean Leonetti, French minister for European affairs, said: "France wants the ECB to have the same role as the Federal Reserve... Why is the euro under attack? It's simple. In the US there's a Federal Reserve. Europe has

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: angelamerkel; eucrisis; europeanunion; mariomonti; nicolassarkozy
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1 posted on 11/24/2011 10:56:53 PM PST by bruinbirdman
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To: bruinbirdman
The boss of Europe making everyone sweat again.
Churchill also expressed his desire that day for a future United States of Europe: “it should be built by the English; if the Russians built it, there would be communism and squalor; if the Germans built it, there would be tyranny and brute force.”

The Churchill War Papers, p. 38

2 posted on 11/24/2011 11:08:15 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: bruinbirdman

Thanks for the post. Interesting read


3 posted on 11/24/2011 11:23:07 PM PST by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: Olog-hai
No wonder The Obammunist got rid of the bust of Churchill.

yitbos

4 posted on 11/24/2011 11:23:44 PM PST by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: bruinbirdman

Bu... Bu... PLEASE, Mrs Merkel.
It’s the only way we can save the future for retiring 50-yr old Gub’ment employees in Greece and Portugal!


5 posted on 11/25/2011 12:09:13 AM PST by tcrlaf (Election 2012: THE RAPTURE OF THE DEMOCRATS)
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To: Olog-hai
Churchill's speech is a product of its time, when the Russians were under communism and he remembered the Germany of the Kaiser-Nazi era. And of course he was an English patriot

Not much relevance to today..

6 posted on 11/25/2011 12:42:09 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos
That's a very jingoistic viewpoint, worrying about Churchill's patriotism. And considering Germany's behavior of late, it's very relevant to today.

I suppose you never read the Red House Report?
7 posted on 11/25/2011 12:45:46 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

These pinheads are going to sweat sooner or later.

Germany’s financial leaders are only now finally beginning to understand what those of us who have done the math on EU-zone debt have understood for a year+: Germany simply does not have the resources to prop up the ECB to the extent necessary to prevent the Euro from imploding.

As such, Germany now has two paths ahead of it:

1. Back up the Euro with their own money and debt rating, which will work (now) for, oh, perhaps a year. Then when the numbers become apparent, they lose both their money and debt rating... for OTHER countries’ debt, not their own... or

2. Start planning for a significantly reduced Euro-zone, where they go back to the letter of the Maastrict Treaty and start enforcing the deficit limits therein, on *everyone*.

The brutal truth is that no common currency can work in Europe. The Med nations are spendthrifts and have been economic basket cases for debt holders going back to WWII or even further back (eg Greece). The northern states have both economic power and financial responsibility bred into them, which cannot be imparted to southern tier countries with any amount of lecturing.


8 posted on 11/25/2011 12:59:02 AM PST by NVDave
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To: tcrlaf
I'm wondering about this -- we are told in the news that they are striking about no Christmas bonus. But on reading it in some more depth i see that some of the other reasons are that the national health service is cut and public services are cut. Now what those are, i don't know -- and I don't think they are completely justified, BUT i know folks in Portugal and life is hard, the job situation is bad and many are desperate

Do remember, I don't know the complete situation and definitely not the solution, just pointing out what I know -- portugal did not lie about its finances like Italy or Greece and they did not spend too much and their banking system was not as risky as Ireland's -- their problem is that their economy is weak and they are part of the eurozone.

They SHOULD put their retirement age at 65, I agree and I don't know the extent of their healthcare and other benefits, but a lot of government spending should be cut -- i just don't know if there are some really serious things that are being cut (would be good to see the actual list of demands, but I can't read portuguese!)

9 posted on 11/25/2011 12:59:02 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Olog-hai
That's a very jingoistic viewpoint, worrying about Churchill's patriotism.

--> actually it was Churchill's jingoism behind that statement that the USE should be built by the English

10 posted on 11/25/2011 1:00:17 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: bruinbirdman

LOL, germany finally took europe and did not fire a shot.


11 posted on 11/25/2011 1:09:02 AM PST by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by "AMNESTY" Perry and his fellow demorats.)
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To: Olog-hai
And considering Germany's behavior of late, it's very relevant to today..

--> Not really, Germany has been demanding, but it is the one lending the money to cash-strapped countries. Borrowers are in no position to say "i won't safeguard the money you lend me, but I still want it".

I don't like Germany's history or Germany today (after all, I have Polish in-laws!) and have imbibed a lot of their distrust towards the Germans, YET, come on they have a point -- why should they work until 67, pay their taxes on time, follow the rules and then have to pay out money to Greece or Italy (to a lesser extent) -- I know for a fact that in Greece and Spain cheating on taxes is a national past-time and they got great benefits and money from the EU when they joined. Italy, less, but still they overspend compared to Germany

12 posted on 11/25/2011 1:11:12 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Olog-hai
And yes, I've read the Red house report and that planned for the continuation of the 3rd Reich. Germany since the 60s (and probably earlier) is NOT in any way like the Germany of the 40s or earlier. The German people are nothing compared to the Germans of the Reich or Empire -- they're not necessarily nicer, just weaker

The Red report details how the Nutzis taught they could retain a united Germany by holding off the soviets until they could secure good terms from the West

That didn't happen and the East Germans were pyschologically changed from the West Germans

the Soviets never allowed any form of German nationalism and that still holds true today

the Red report is a product of its time and for a future that never happened.

13 posted on 11/25/2011 1:15:41 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: org.whodat
Hardly -- the distrust if not downright hatred of the Germans in the rest of europe, whether IN the EU or not is palpable.

if they really "took europe" then how come Germans are working longer while the rest of the eurozone relaxes on German money? the Germans have tried to subsume their nationalism in a kind of European nationalism and its failing IN Germany where people don't want to work until 67 to let others retire at 50

14 posted on 11/25/2011 1:18:33 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: bruinbirdman

Will the Market Nose Dive Monday?


15 posted on 11/25/2011 1:27:24 AM PST by TomasUSMC ( FIGHT LIKE WW2, FINISH LIKE WW2. FIGHT LIKE NAM, FINISH LIKE NAM)
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To: NVDave
i agree -- they are realizing it now that their dreams of a EU zone are dead

to your points

1. they may be foolhardy enough to try this -- and you are correct that it seems a dead-end choice

2. this makes more sense, but quite frankly, who meets the Maastricht treaty today? at a pinch (with no facts at my fingertips), I'd say next to no one besides Luxembourg.

A smaller Euro-zone makes sense -- probably excluding Portugal, Italy, Greece. Spain actually better follows the Maastricht guidelines than Germany as i've read (not thoroughly). France and Germany will be part of that central region and the Benelux countries will tag along.

Estonia and Latvia WILL stay -- they have been desperately trying to tie themselves to every country possible to keep the Russian bear at bay.

Slovakia should learn and exit -- it gets no real benefit (anecdote -- on the Polish-Slovakian border, before Slovaki joined the EU zone, Poles used to go across to buy stuff (it was cheaper in Slovakia), but now the reverse happens) imho

who else? I think they would kick out Ireland (who i'm beginning to strongly dislike since their ship to the "palestinian territories")

Italy would be in better shape without the euro -- my Italian friends tell me that when the euro came, prices DOUBLED, and the cost of living in Italy is too high now.

Spain would be in doo-doo, but they got a lot of money from the EU in the form of infrastructure building (their roads etc. are better than Germany's imho).

Portugal would be better off

Greece would be in deep doo-doo as they have been made lazy by sucking at the EU teat for too long

16 posted on 11/25/2011 1:31:57 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos
LOL, the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rule.
17 posted on 11/25/2011 1:35:05 AM PST by org.whodat (Just another heartless American, hated by "AMNESTY" Perry and his fellow demorats.)
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To: TomasUSMC
"Will the Market Nose Dive Monday?"

How about today!

Right now in Asia, Europe there is almost a general liquidation.

Equities, oil, gold all down. Bond yields up. Dollar up across the board.

yitbos

18 posted on 11/25/2011 1:40:51 AM PST by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: org.whodat; nathanbedford; Berlin_Freeper

True. the Portuguese and Greeks can cut themselves loose from the teat. pinging nathanbeford and berlin freeper — freepers in Germany for the German perspective


19 posted on 11/25/2011 1:43:53 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: NVDave

Well now...what you say is true...the PIIGS, Greece first, MUST leave the euro to GROW.

FOLKS, the key here to remember DEFLATION, and these NATIONS (they’re not “states” to be exploited as with Phony-Care here in the U.S.) must leave the euro to GROW. Look at that Italian yield today, above 7%..how long before 8%>?

But NOT before to WATCH out for an attempt by the PHONY paper makers to try their own version of a Phony-Care scam to prevent temper hot inflation, >>>> IF they pull a ECB Sovereign backstop attempt upon Germany, and the Germans cry ‘uncle.”


20 posted on 11/25/2011 2:06:34 AM PST by Varsity Flight
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To: bruinbirdman

No one cares in the middle of America. Black Friday and my scanner is going nuts with fights in Wal Mart parking lots.

When the real SHTF these same people will be the Zombie horde.


21 posted on 11/25/2011 2:49:50 AM PST by arkady_renko (I want to believe.)
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To: Olog-hai
…Germany’s behavior…tyranny and brute force…
What exactly is your problem with Merkel’s stance on this? The Frenchies and the PIGS want the ECB to be like the Fed, so they can continue spending money like crazy in the public sector and pay for it all with worthless paper money. Are you in favor of unfettered money printing? When has that become a recommended policy here on Free Republic? Are you a Keynesian? Did you also think that Obama’s stimulus programs were just great?
22 posted on 11/25/2011 2:52:19 AM PST by cartan
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To: cartan

The French want Germany to launch a TARP program. And kick the can down the road.


23 posted on 11/25/2011 4:05:24 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Olog-hai
*** The Churchill War Papers, p. 38 ***

Whoopee. He wrote those while drunk as a skunk.

24 posted on 11/25/2011 4:29:17 AM PST by Condor51 (Yo Hoffa, so you want to 'take out conservatives'. Well okay Jr - I'm your Huckleberry)
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To: org.whodat
*** LOL, germany finally took europe and did not fire a shot. ***

Yeah, but this time they don't want it.
It's like being forced to have your Crazy Uncle move in with you. :-)

25 posted on 11/25/2011 4:35:23 AM PST by Condor51 (Yo Hoffa, so you want to 'take out conservatives'. Well okay Jr - I'm your Huckleberry)
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To: bruinbirdman
For years, the French and the Italians have been telling Germany that it must temper its export-based economy and work to increase domestic consumer spending. Now, how do you suppose they could do that? There's just one way.

Inflate the currency. That would cause Germany's domestic prices and wages to rise making their exports less competitive, and would make imports more attractive to German consumers. Germany has remained economically strong because it refused this "helpful" advice.

As the article points out, the French want the ECB to become a lender of last resort just like the Fed. That is code for let's please print Euros to get us out of this bond mess. It's the same old thing and Germany's not falling for it.

I do get a kick out of the commenters here who claim Germany is "running" Europe and basically just being mean. The truth is, they're the only adults on the continent right now -- and maybe the world.

26 posted on 11/25/2011 4:36:35 AM PST by BfloGuy (The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.)
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To: cartan; Olog-hai

Nah, olog believes that Germany is planning a new Reich. The theme of his threads are generally: EU bad, Germany is really the 3rd Reich undercover, blah-blah.


27 posted on 11/25/2011 4:50:54 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: bruinbirdman

I wondered if the dollar would rise....


28 posted on 11/25/2011 4:56:35 AM PST by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make mankind into God but to put God into men!)
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To: Condor51

Whoopee. He wrote those while drunk as a skunk
Thanks for the opinion, Mr. Obama.
29 posted on 11/25/2011 8:01:41 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Cronos

actually it was Churchill's jingoism behind that statement that the USE should be built by the English
History will certainly prove that opinion to be correct.
30 posted on 11/25/2011 8:05:33 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Condor51


Originally posted by org.whodat
germany finally took europe and did not fire a shot.
Yeah, but this time they don't want it
The people never wanted it, perhaps. The German elites have always lusted after it, though. Never read about the CDU's "passion" for European union?
31 posted on 11/25/2011 8:08:01 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Cronos

Nah, olog believes that Germany is planning a new Reich. The theme of his threads are generally: EU bad, Germany is really the 3rd Reich undercover, blah-blah
You seem hell-bent on defending Germany and the EU over the US and the UK; defending true republics against a copy of the Soviet Union. Why is that?

There is enough evidence out of EU and German politicians already. And that's aside from things like the Red House Report (declassified in 1996), the papers recovered from the German Geopolitical Office in Madrid (as recorded in T.H. Tetens' book), and the plethora of modern-day news articles.
The (European) Community is living largely by the heritage of the Holy Roman Empire, though the great majority of the people that live by it don't know by what heritage they live.

— Otto von Habsburg, 1988

The future will belong to the Germans … when we build the House of Europe. In the next two years, we will make the process of European integration irreversible. This is a really big battle, but it is worth the fight.

— Helmut Kohl, 1995

Does free Europe want to join Germany? Germany is the heart of Europe, and the limbs must adjust themselves to the heart, not the heart to the limbs.

— Hans Christian Seebohm, 1951, after accusing the victors of WWII of a "monstrous crime . . . against Germany, Europe and the whole world".

32 posted on 11/25/2011 8:21:08 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Cronos
Spain actually better follows the Maastricht guidelines than Germany as i've read (not thoroughly).

Ah, the irony. Germany takes on additional debt to prop up the failing states, thus leaving the boundaries of the Maastricht treaty, and *then* some (here and elsewhere) point the finger at Germany and say, see, you're not in compliance with Maastricht either!

33 posted on 11/25/2011 8:22:09 AM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: Moltke

Norway is going to be a factor. Like the Viking Raids of a thousand years ago, they will start raiding with money and buying parts of the Euro up. North Sea Oil is the new Viking Sword. Although they better watch their back for those Russian Bears.


34 posted on 11/25/2011 10:48:48 AM PST by TomasUSMC ( FIGHT LIKE WW2, FINISH LIKE WW2. FIGHT LIKE NAM, FINISH LIKE NAM)
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To: Cronos

Let me add that with “some (here and elsewhere)” I did not mean to refer to you, Cronos. Mostly to so-called journalists and ‘pundits’.


35 posted on 11/25/2011 11:11:27 AM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: TomasUSMC

Perhaps, but I believe they spend a lot of their oil money for social measures in their own country, and the people wouldn’t be happy if that money went elsewhere. Plus, they might have to get in line behind the Saudis and Emirates...


36 posted on 11/25/2011 11:21:52 AM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: Olog-hai
if you mean England at THAT time, namely 40s-50s, then to a large extent yes, a USE created by England would have been a good thing and definitely better than anything that could be created by Nzi Germany or the Soviets at that time

If you mean England of today, then no, the England of today is a mess, trudging along on past glories and unable of managing itself let alone others

I'm not saying the Franco-German union isn't bad, just that if Blairite-postBlairite England was to organize it, it would have been worse

37 posted on 11/28/2011 12:16:35 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Olog-hai
You seem hell-bent on defending Germany and the EU over the US and the UK;

Nothing of the kind. Firstly, the matter of the euro-zone collapsing or not is not "defending the EU over the US".

Secondly, the UK of today is heavily integrated into the EU in most matters

Thirdly, you are the one parading 40s stereotypes of Germany out of Allo Allo and not awake to the reality that in this case, the Germans are saying to the Greeks etc. "if you want OUR money, then stop cheating on your taxes, stop inflating govt accounts, etc. -- what gives you Greeks the right to retire at 55 when we have to work hard until 67?" -- and the Germans are right to demand action if the Greeks want their money.

38 posted on 11/28/2011 12:19:28 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Olog-hai
And you seem hell-bent on living in the 1940s instead of the 2010s.

As I said, I've read the Red house report and that planned for the continuation of the 3rd Reich. Germany since the 60s (and probably earlier) is NOT in any way like the Germany of the 40s or earlier. The German people are nothing compared to the Germans of the Reich or Empire -- they're not necessarily nicer, just weaker

The Red report details how the Nutzis taught they could retain a united Germany by holding off the soviets until they could secure good terms from the West

That didn't happen and the East Germans were pyschologically changed from the West Germans

the Soviets never allowed any form of German nationalism and that still holds true today

the Red report is a product of its time and for a future that never happened.

now come out of your twilight zone

39 posted on 11/28/2011 12:21:08 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Olog-hai; Berlin_Freeper
And you seem hell-bent on living in the 1940s instead of the 2010s.

Did you even check on where and when and EXACTLY WHAT Kohl said? Did you even wonder why the elipses?

Because there's something cut out by reporters for their soundbite?

When Kohl talks about German reunification and saying the future belongs to a united Germany, he's not being jingoistic any more than a Rwandan President saying the future belongs to a strong Rwanda

and when "we" -- the we referred to were the Europeans united -- there has been no idea of Germany being the one making all the rules until everyone demanded bailouts from them -- nearly all the EU rules and bureaucracy is French or Belgian or Dutch or Luxembourg in origin.

40 posted on 11/28/2011 12:28:45 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Moltke

do read the rest of my comments. Germany’s debt that pushed it outside Maastricht boundaries was not taken for propping up the failing states. Germany’s debt is of its own making. They do not follow the strict Maastricht requirements — next to no country does. If Germany wants to use that as a stick to beat others with, then they need to realise that it can be used against them as well.


41 posted on 11/28/2011 12:31:11 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: TomasUSMC
yes, Norway will be a factor, but they are not in the eurozone. If anything, the article holds true for them to lead a "viking union" -- but I doubt Denmark would join in -- it is too heavily integrated with Germany. Sweden also would be doubtful. Finland too is tied in heavily to the EU and would prefer to be allied to theEU to keep the Russians away

One bad point about the Norwegians -- they are heavily socialist. More socialist than the UK (but less than Sweden, for now...).

42 posted on 11/28/2011 12:35:31 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Moltke
I shot off a post before reading that, sorry. However, afaik, the debt taken by Germany was not taken on for the PIIGS

Also, the Germans ought to realise that because of the Greeks etc. dragging the euro down, Germany's exports are competitively priced on the world market -- if they were still on the Deutsche Mark then it would be sky high as a rock solid safe currency (the rise of the Swiss Frank in recent months would be nothing in comparision) -- people may even have fled the greenback to buy DMs.

43 posted on 11/28/2011 12:47:50 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos; Olog-hai
I have seen and posted in Olog-hai's (The Olog-hai were a fierce breed of Trolls) numerous anti-Germany threads in the past. As an American living in Berlin this is not how I will likely spend my time. I am a firm believer in the silent majority and that most reasonable minded people will see the ugly caricature Olog-hai has made of himself.
44 posted on 11/28/2011 12:48:08 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (For years the Left protested "the occupation of Iraq"- now they want to "Occupy" all across the US)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
it's good to hear the perspective of someone from within. I just cannot fathom the kind of blind anti-German (and this coming from me -- I tend to mock Germans a bit -- I live in Poland after all!) dig up anything silly about them

There are lots of reasons to mock Germans, but suggesting what is in each of his threads is just silliness or "stuck in twilight zone" level wierdness

45 posted on 11/28/2011 2:24:21 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos

I am not against healthy criticism. But Olog-hai is of a single mind when it comes to Germany and it is never pretty.

I have seen him post that Germany gives bailout money to change its status from being “a pariah State” to being acceptable leader among nations.

Pariah, really?

That would be Iran and North Korea.

Then he posts a thread with the opposite angle of attack - That Germany “uses the Jackboot” by attaching agreements to the bailouts.

In all cases this guy is anti-German. Mark my words now, this guy will never change.


46 posted on 11/28/2011 2:53:02 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (For years the Left protested "the occupation of Iraq"- now they want to "Occupy" all across the US)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

For the life of me I can’t understand that kind of hatred — is he a WWII vet or holocaust (jewish or slavic or gypsy) typing out somewhere? That’s about the only person who can still keep that kind of hatred (and THAT would be deserved)


47 posted on 11/28/2011 7:21:20 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos

True - I was probably exaggerating. The Maastricht treaty limits were broken anyway. Germany’s debt is too high for comfort, but net payments to the EU and additional bailout debt for the PIGS certainly doesn’t help matters!

OTOH - again I’d have to agree - with a strong DM instead of the weaker euro Germany would have issues with its exports.

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t...


48 posted on 11/28/2011 12:52:55 PM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

I have seen and posted in Olog-hai's (The Olog-hai were a fierce breed of Trolls) numerous anti-Germany threads in the past
I don't post a single anti-German thread. Being anti-German would mean posting lies about Germany instead of the truth.

I am a firm believer in the silent majority and that most reasonable minded people
Interesting libtalk.
49 posted on 11/28/2011 1:19:10 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Cronos

I'm not saying the Franco-German union isn't bad, just that if Blairite-postBlairite England was to organize it, it would have been worse
"Blairite/post-Blairite" (whatever that means) England is a result of their liberals complying with EU directives. So a USE built by today's England would be the same as that built by today's Germany.
50 posted on 11/28/2011 1:22:00 PM PST by Olog-hai
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