Germany unmoved by French pleas for more ECB action

The Telegraph ^ | 11/24/2011 | Louise Armitstead

[bruinbirdman]

French appeals for Germany to sanction extra powers for the European Central Bank have been firmly rejected, despite warnings from politicians, economists and even the Vatican that it is the only way of "averting a catastrophe".

Italian premier Mario Monti (right) pledged to balance the budget by 2013 - but failed to prevent the country's 10-year
bonds from closing in the danger zone again at 7.13pc

Angela Merkel was unmoved by another roller-coaster day that saw Portuguese debt being downgraded to junk status, Italian bond yields pushed into the bail-out zone, and doubts cast over France's AAA rating: the German Chancellor refused to allow the ECB to become Europe's lender of last resort.

Ms Merkel instead used a three-way summit with France and Italy in Strasbourg to insist that new treaty powers to intervene and punish sinner states remained the key focus of Europe's rescue efforts. She said: "The countries who don't keep to the stability pact have to be punished – those who contravene it need to be penalised. We need to make sure this doesn't happen again."

Even suggestions that the ECB could extend longer loans to countries over a period of up to three years appeared to be ruled out. Ms Merkel said: "The ECB is independent, the modification of the treaty does not concern the ECB, which is dealing with monetary policy and financial stability. We are worried about a fiscal policy. It's a very different chapter. It has nothing to do with the European bank."

But at the start of the day, Jean Leonetti, French minister for European affairs, said: "France wants the ECB to have the same role as the Federal Reserve... Why is the euro under attack? It's simple. In the US there's a Federal Reserve. Europe has

[Cronos]

do read the rest of my comments. Germany’s debt that pushed it outside Maastricht boundaries was not taken for propping up the failing states. Germany’s debt is of its own making. They do not follow the strict Maastricht requirements — next to no country does. If Germany wants to use that as a stick to beat others with, then they need to realise that it can be used against them as well.

[Cronos]

yes, Norway will be a factor, but they are not in the eurozone. If anything, the article holds true for them to lead a "viking union" -- but I doubt Denmark would join in -- it is too heavily integrated with Germany. Sweden also would be doubtful. Finland too is tied in heavily to the EU and would prefer to be allied to theEU to keep the Russians away

One bad point about the Norwegians -- they are heavily socialist. More socialist than the UK (but less than Sweden, for now...).

[Cronos]

I shot off a post before reading that, sorry. However, afaik, the debt taken by Germany was not taken on for the PIIGS

Also, the Germans ought to realise that because of the Greeks etc. dragging the euro down, Germany's exports are competitively priced on the world market -- if they were still on the Deutsche Mark then it would be sky high as a rock solid safe currency (the rise of the Swiss Frank in recent months would be nothing in comparision) -- people may even have fled the greenback to buy DMs.

[Berlin_Freeper]

I have seen and posted in Olog-hai's (The Olog-hai were a fierce breed of Trolls) numerous anti-Germany threads in the past. As an American living in Berlin this is not how I will likely spend my time. I am a firm believer in the silent majority and that most reasonable minded people will see the ugly caricature Olog-hai has made of himself.

[Cronos]

it's good to hear the perspective of someone from within. I just cannot fathom the kind of blind anti-German (and this coming from me -- I tend to mock Germans a bit -- I live in Poland after all!) dig up anything silly about them

There are lots of reasons to mock Germans, but suggesting what is in each of his threads is just silliness or "stuck in twilight zone" level wierdness

[Berlin_Freeper]

I am not against healthy criticism. But Olog-hai is of a single mind when it comes to Germany and it is never pretty.

I have seen him post that Germany gives bailout money to change its status from being “a pariah State” to being acceptable leader among nations.

Pariah, really?

That would be Iran and North Korea.

Then he posts a thread with the opposite angle of attack - That Germany “uses the Jackboot” by attaching agreements to the bailouts.

In all cases this guy is anti-German. Mark my words now, this guy will never change.

[Cronos]

For the life of me I can’t understand that kind of hatred — is he a WWII vet or holocaust (jewish or slavic or gypsy) typing out somewhere? That’s about the only person who can still keep that kind of hatred (and THAT would be deserved)

[Moltke]

True - I was probably exaggerating. The Maastricht treaty limits were broken anyway. Germany’s debt is too high for comfort, but net payments to the EU and additional bailout debt for the PIGS certainly doesn’t help matters!

OTOH - again I’d have to agree - with a strong DM instead of the weaker euro Germany would have issues with its exports.

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t...

[Olog-hai]

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I have seen and posted in Olog-hai's (The Olog-hai were a fierce breed of Trolls) numerous anti-Germany threads in the past

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I don't post a single anti-German thread. Being anti-German would mean posting lies about Germany instead of the truth.

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I am a firm believer in the silent majority and that most reasonable minded people

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Interesting libtalk.

[Olog-hai]

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I'm not saying the Franco-German union isn't bad, just that if Blairite-postBlairite England was to organize it, it would have been worse

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"Blairite/post-Blairite" (whatever that means) England is a result of their liberals complying with EU directives. So a USE built by today's England would be the same as that built by today's Germany.

[Berlin_Freeper]

Olog-hai

The Olog-hai were a fierce breed of Trolls

[Olog-hai]

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And you seem hell-bent on living in the 1940s instead of the 2010s.

Did you even check on where and when and EXACTLY WHAT Kohl said? Did you even wonder why the elipses?

Because there's something cut out by reporters for their soundbite?

When Kohl talks about German reunification and saying the future belongs to a united Germany, he's not being jingoistic any more than a Rwandan President saying the future belongs to a strong Rwanda and when "we" -- the we referred to were the Europeans united -- there has been no idea of Germany being the one making all the rules until everyone demanded bailouts from them -- nearly all the EU rules and bureaucracy is French or Belgian or Dutch or Luxembourg in origin

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Nobody demanded bailouts from Germany.

Seeking context where none exists is what liberals do. If you can find the whole quote for me, then by all means do so; I myself have been looking for it ever since I discovered it, and I don't think a single thing that you could add to it could ever justify that, especially the untruncated bit about making European integration "irreversible". Notwithstanding, you yourself shouldn't attempt to fill in the blanks, because you may be setting yourself up for a fall. Kohl's got enough to atone for when it comes to his unilateral recognition of the independence of Croatia and Slovenia, which precipitated the big war there in the mid-90s.

I won't go on too much, but for now, here's a quote attributed to General Hans Friedrich, from a broadcast made (ironically) in Brussels:

I know you are friends of the British; that you are eagerly waiting the British and American forces. Within a short while, you shall fill the streets of Brussels and shout, “At last they are here—the liberators!” You will acclaim the Allied troops as they march through your streets. You will do so because you know that Britain has never lost the last battle. But one day, we shall come back. Until then, à bientôt.

[Olog-hai]

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As I said, I've read the Red house report and that planned for the continuation of the 3rd Reich. Germany since the 60s (and probably earlier) is NOT in any way like the Germany of the 40s or earlier. The German people are nothing compared to the Germans of the Reich or Empire -- they're not necessarily nicer, just weaker. The Red report details how the Nutzis taught they could retain a united Germany by holding off the soviets until they could secure good terms from the West. That didn't happen and the East Germans were pyschologically changed from the West Germans … the Soviets never allowed any form of German nationalism and that still holds true today. the Red report is a product of its time and for a future that never happened.

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Thank you for your opinion. Why are you trying to present it as fact? I don't see a single outside source verifying what you're saying.

[Cronos]

True. Its a difficult path to tread. Last year I went for an intensive Polish course at Warsaw university and we had a field trip to the Warsaw Uprising museum. Now for that intensive course there were lots of Erasmus students and many from Germany.

Also, you must know that on every street corner in Warsaw there are monuments: "here xx number of partisans/citizens were murdered by Germans/Nazis" and the Poles remember

Anyway, so the guide was very animated and talking about how the Germans did this and the Germans did that (and to an impartial observer this was not overdone as well, the Germans DID do all of that and the museum tries to not vilify, even though it is difficult)

Anyway, so i was feeling sorry for the German 20-somethings, but after that, they told me that they KNEW about this -- they are taught each year in schools about what their country did -- and they are taught well, not as "you are slime for doing this" but "this is what we did, we must remember and never do this again" -- and I think their schooling has managed that fine line.

[Cronos]

"Nobody demanded bailouts from Germany." -- do read up on what the Greeks said. Or the Irish.

The answer is yes, they expected bailouts from the EU and the only countries in the EU that can give that money are Germany, the Netherlands, etc. with Germany being the biggest donor.

BESIDES, you completely bypass the point that your statement made up what Kohl had said

Did you even check on where and when and EXACTLY WHAT Kohl said? Did you even wonder why the elipses?

Because there's something cut out by reporters for their soundbite?

When Kohl talks about German reunification and saying the future belongs to a united Germany, he's not being jingoistic any more than a Rwandan President saying the future belongs to a strong Rwanda and when "we" -- the we referred to were the Europeans united

[Cronos]

1. yes it's a fact that this was detailing for a different future that never happened, one in which Germany remained intact post WWII with it falling under the American umbrella rather than carved into Soviet and Western spheres

2. yes, it's a fact that they did not manage with their 1940 plan -- your statements are trying to make it into fact whereas, hello , it isn't

Stop living in your 1940s twilight zone.

[Olog-hai]

Neither of those are facts; they're merely your opinion, and I'm mystified as to why you hold such an opinion. A well-organized Nazi underground whose planning started well before Germany's surrender does not simply disappear, especially after not a soul was caught after the Geopolitical Office in Madrid was raided in the 50s. Those were actual Nazis that Adenauer put into office in the BND whether you want to acknowledge reality or not. The NPD did not simply come out of nowhere—they have and had backing from those within the aforementioned underground. The anti-Israel campaign in the UN did not solely emerge from the Islamic world—and the anti-Israel campaign within Europe certainly did not emerge from the Muslims that emigrated there after the British Mandate ended. You have zero evidence that "they did not manage". Please stop raising a liberal-style (or dare I say Stormfront-style) defense of what cannot be defended or excused.

[wolfman23601]

Don’t think of it as anti-German, think of it as pro-American.