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MSNBC: Americans Just Donít Pay Enough Taxes Ė Period!
Newsbusters ^

Posted on 11/26/2011 12:04:58 PM PST by Sub-Driver

MSNBC: Americans Just Don’t Pay Enough Taxes – Period! By Noel Sheppard Created 11/26/2011 - 1:23pm

If you had the misfortune of watching Weekends with Alex Witt on MSNBC Saturday morning, you sadly were treated to four minutes of propaganda about how we Americans just don’t pay enough taxes – period!

CQ Roll Call’s David Hawkings was invited on to misinform the gullible about Americans’ tax rates being too low, corporations shirking their tax responsibilities, the poor paying more than conservatives contend, and, of course, the rich not paying their “fair share” (video follows with transcribed highlights and commentary):

“If you take all the taxes paid in the United States and you compared them against other countries, the U.S. overall taxes are the lowest as a percentage of the economy among developing countries,” said Hawkings. “About one out of every four dollars in the whole economy is paid in taxes. That’s lower than any other country in the developed world. In Denmark it’s as high as about 50 percent.”

I realize this might seem like an odd question, but what is the goal of a capitalist system? Is it for the citizens to pay the highest taxes possible or for them to build their own wealth?

If the goal is the former, I’d suggest even Denmark is failing: why stop at 50 percent?

But here in America, which was founded by former British citizens escaping the King’s confiscatory taxes, we have historically strived for the tax burden to be as low as possible, even as low as zero during peacetime.

Yet Hawkings seemed a bit confused about our tax history saying, “If you compare the U.S. taxes now to where they have been historically, lower than almost any year in recent memory. The income tax has been around for about a hundred years. For about half that time the tax rate has been higher than it is now for the top earners.”

Well, that means that half of those roughly 100 years, the tax rate for top earners has been lower. Now add the 100-plus years prior to that and taxes on the most successful are now actually higher than they’ve historically been.

Not surprisingly, such logic escaped Hawkings and Witt.

When the subject of what America’s poor pay in taxes surfaced, Hawkings said, “Conservatives point out that in fact as many as half of Americans in the last year paid no income taxes, no traditional IRS income taxes. But let’s remember that nine percent were unemployed, some are elderly and disabled, and almost all the rest of them pay those payroll tax deductions that we see in our paychecks that come out for Medicare and Social Security.”

Yes, but according to the Congressional Budget Office, in 2006, the bottom quintile in the nation paid just 0.8 percent of all federal taxes collected including income, payroll, excise, and corporate.

That’s right: the poorest 20 percent paid only 0.8 percent.

By contrast: the richest 20 percent paid 69.3 percent; the richest ten percent paid 55.4 percent; the richest 5 percent paid 44.7 percent, and; the richest one percent paid 28.3 percent.

Maybe more importantly, as can be plainly seen from the following CBO chart, what the poor have been paying has been declining since 1979 while what the upper-earners have contributed has steadily risen:

Not surprisingly, neither Hawkings nor Witt brought this up either.

But what did surface, of course, was the fiction that the rich just aren’t paying their “fair share.”

“Historically, the top one percent of Americans pay a big chunk of the taxes,” said Hawkings. “Conservatives say in fact they pay about a quarter of the taxes, but they make 40 percent of the money. That much is true, but again, like we were talking about a minute ago with the corporations, the rich have an enormous advantage in terms of their deductions. They can deduct their capital gains taxes, they can deduct charitable donations. They have a better job with their accountants and in some cases their own lobbyists keeping their tax rate low.”

Maybe so, but what Hawkings dishonestly ignored is that with all that, the rich still pay more as a percent of both taxable and adjusted gross income than lower wage earners.

The IRS tables for 2009 show folks making $200,000 or more paid between 26.3 and 28.6 percent of their taxable incomes. By contrast, those making less than $200,000 paid between 17.8 and 22.1 percent.

As such, the progressive nature of our tax code – meaning folks that make more pay more – is still quite intact in America despite the carping and whining of liberals about the rich not paying their “fair share.”

If only it were required that actual real tax percentages reported by CBO and the IRS be included in such discussions.

It would make it much more difficult for the Left to continually propagandize the nation about who is and who isn’t paying taxes.


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: msnbc; pmsnbc; socialism; taxes

1 posted on 11/26/2011 12:05:00 PM PST by Sub-Driver
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To: Sub-Driver
“If you take all the taxes paid in the United States and you compared them against other countries, the U.S. overall taxes are the lowest as a percentage of the economy among developing countries,” said Hawkings.

I consider that a plus. Obviously, Mr. "I'm a socialist but won't admit it" Hawkings thinks it not.

2 posted on 11/26/2011 12:08:12 PM PST by jeffc (Prayer. It's freedom of speech.)
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To: Sub-Driver

I agree ... all the freeloaders that don’t pay taxes should be. I for one am tired of the parasites


3 posted on 11/26/2011 12:09:48 PM PST by clamper1797 (Hoping to have some change left)
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To: Sub-Driver

I wonder if, when raising taxes, our representatives ever note that God only asks for 10%.


4 posted on 11/26/2011 12:10:12 PM PST by stansblugrassgrl (PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!! YEEEEEHAW!)
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To: Sub-Driver
“If you take all the taxes paid in the United States and you compared them against other countries, the U.S. overall taxes are the lowest as a percentage of the economy among developing countries,” said Hawkings. “About one out of every four dollars in the whole economy is paid in taxes. That’s lower than any other country in the developed world. In Denmark it’s as high as about 50 percent.”

I always chuckle when I hear nitwits complain that we're not like other countries. America didn't become exceptional by imitating Europe.

5 posted on 11/26/2011 12:13:39 PM PST by NittanyLion
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To: Sub-Driver

“Many Americans ARE STANDING IN A bucket trying to lift themselves UP by the handle”..

Others are laughing at them for doing this...


6 posted on 11/26/2011 12:22:33 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: clamper1797

The problem with so many people not paying federal taxes is that they don’ see big government as a threat, because they are getting all those services for free. HUD loans, FHA, federal money for schools, school lunches, local police equipment, 87 different job programs......are all fine because they don’t see the bill.


7 posted on 11/26/2011 12:23:53 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: clamper1797

The problem with so many people not paying federal taxes is that they don’ see big government as a threat, because they are getting all those services for free. HUD loans, FHA, federal money for schools, school lunches, local police equipment, 87 different job programs......are all fine because they don’t see the bill.


8 posted on 11/26/2011 12:23:55 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: clamper1797

The problem with so many people not paying federal taxes is that they don’ see big government as a threat, because they are getting all those services for free. HUD loans, FHA, federal money for schools, school lunches, local police equipment, 87 different job programs......are all fine because they don’t see the bill.


9 posted on 11/26/2011 12:23:58 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: Sub-Driver

The “progressive” income tax makes things progressively worse. In fact, the progressive tax rates are regressive when it comes to growing GDP. Since the income to the treasury increases as GDP increases “progressive” taxation is resulting in the opposite of its stated intent.


10 posted on 11/26/2011 12:25:09 PM PST by jdsteel (Give me freedom, not more government.)
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To: Sub-Driver

It never occurs to these IDIOTS that if you keep raising taxes, one day the productive are going to decide that work no longer makes sense. (See what happens then).

Perhaps this is why they love inflation so much as it is a hidden tax.


11 posted on 11/26/2011 12:25:42 PM PST by desertfreedom765
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To: Sub-Driver

I’ve always said that if there was a standard income tax of $500 a year for anyone who makes under $25,000 a year and one that was lower up to the amount where they do start to pay a percentage everyone would all of a sudden find a way to make it to the over $25K to beat the system.


12 posted on 11/26/2011 12:29:01 PM PST by chris_bdba
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To: jeffc

How has our economy fared against theirs over time, Hawkings?


13 posted on 11/26/2011 12:29:02 PM PST by A_Former_Democrat (There's nothing more hypocritical than a white liberal calling someone else a "bigot")
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To: Sub-Driver
I spent Thanksgiving with a number of relatives who were really hoping that the government would get smart and tax the bejeezus out of them.

There was also a general consensus that the "Bush tax cuts" are the whole reason this country is $15T in debt.

14 posted on 11/26/2011 12:29:13 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Roll the stone away, Let the guilty pay, It's Independence Day)
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To: jeffc
"If you take all the taxes paid in the United States and you compared them against other countries, the U.S. overall taxes are the lowest as a percentage of the economy ....

These types of statements are always apples to oranges comparisons. They don't include taxes at all levels, or the effect of federal mandates, which in the US are substantial and have the same effect as a tax but aren't counted as such.

15 posted on 11/26/2011 12:33:49 PM PST by Pearls Before Swine
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To: Sub-Driver
"the poor paying more than conservatives contend"

Those taxes that the poor "pay" are excise taxes (sales, liquor, gas, tobacco, etc.) and they receive "earned" income tax credits to pay offset the cost of said taxes.

But when the claims major corporations "pay no federal income taxes" why are corporations not credited for the taxes they pay locally, such as sales tax, employee tax, city tax, county taxes, state taxes, etc.

The left always wants it both ways.

16 posted on 11/26/2011 12:35:02 PM PST by Michael.SF. (When you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras.)
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To: Sub-Driver

see : Hauser’s Law


17 posted on 11/26/2011 12:36:58 PM PST by griswold3 (Character is Destiny)
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To: NittanyLion
In Denmark it’s as high as about 50 percent.”

Ah, so that's how Denmark became the economic powerhouse that it currently is.

18 posted on 11/26/2011 12:37:24 PM PST by Hoodat (Because they do not change, Therefore they do not fear God. -Psalm 55:19-)
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To: Pearls Before Swine
"They don't include taxes at all levels"

Absolutely right. Additionally they do not include that some things we pay on our own, such as 401K or other retirement funding, or our health care deductions, are not counted as "taxes". Europeans pay those items through there taxes, and thus are getting more for their money then we are.

19 posted on 11/26/2011 12:37:55 PM PST by Michael.SF. (When you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras.)
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To: Sub-Driver
paying taxes is VOLUNTARY! at least that's what the IRS says anyway...

so feel free to pay more if you don't think you are taxed enough already and STFU!!!

20 posted on 11/26/2011 12:43:53 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Sub-Driver

Doesn’t GE which owns MSNBC not pay taxes? That’s what I heard on the Savage Nation.


21 posted on 11/26/2011 12:51:52 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: Sub-Driver
Americans Just Don’t Pay Enough Taxes...

said the propaganda arm of General Electric.
22 posted on 11/26/2011 12:52:41 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: Sub-Driver

I agree how about we get those 52 percent that dont pay any taxes!


23 posted on 11/26/2011 12:53:39 PM PST by ronnie raygun (V)
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To: ReformationFan

It’s actually Comcast/GE or Cumcast as Savage calls them.


24 posted on 11/26/2011 12:54:40 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: ReformationFan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBCUniversal


25 posted on 11/26/2011 12:56:57 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: Sub-Driver

Progessives just want to steal your money; then kill you. Simple as that. Progressives steal, progressives kill.


26 posted on 11/26/2011 12:57:38 PM PST by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: who knows what evil?

“Progessives just want to steal your money; then kill you. Simple as that. Progressives steal, progressives kill.”

But if the progressive kill the people who make money, how will they have any money? Seems kind of self-defeating.

As the Iron Lady put it: “The trouble with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money.”


27 posted on 11/26/2011 1:02:35 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: Sub-Driver
MSNBC MSDNC
28 posted on 11/26/2011 1:10:44 PM PST by Baynative (The penalty for not participating in politics is you will be governed by your inferiors.)
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To: USNBandit

Obviously whomever is conducting the audit isn’t accurately accounting all taxation.

States such as NY and CA typically have about a 50cent/gallon set of taxes on gasoline.

So for every mile traveled, that’s about 2-5cents per mile taxed for vehicle travel.

That tax hits every hard commodity sold in those states just for delivery charges.

Now add the 8.5 percent sales tax and the lowest income workers are nearly always paying a minimum of 10% tax just to survive with any income.

The larger curse are the number of regulatory requirements for all aspects of commerce, which drive unnecessary costs when not required except by regulatory fiat.

As a rule of thumb we pay roughly 10x the raw cost for any product and service.

That is why the economy is failing.

The rest of society has just been corrupted by those metrics as business as usual. Any efficiencies gleaned are simply regulated and taxed again, not only removing profits, but reducing incentive to even work.


29 posted on 11/26/2011 1:10:51 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Sub-Driver

There needs to be legislation that puts a check box on the 1040 that says, “I believe in big government and love socialist programs. I want to have an additional percent added to my tax as follows: A. 5% B. 10% C. 20% D. Higher as indicated _ _ %.”

Then liberals can put their money where their big socialist mouths are.


30 posted on 11/26/2011 1:12:21 PM PST by Proud2BeRight
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To: Sub-Driver

Did anybody ask these commie turds why their former parent company, GE, paid no taxes?


31 posted on 11/26/2011 1:12:43 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: Sub-Driver

32 posted on 11/26/2011 1:28:19 PM PST by Dem Guard (Obama's 57 States = The Organization of The Islamic Conference (OIC).)
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To: Sub-Driver
As Rush pointed out last summer in the wake of the United States Downgrade, the rich aren't rich enough to solve the problem. That is, assuming they'd bother to stay rich if all their income was confiscated. Actually, they'd opt to be poor, and God help all the little people to whom they gave jobs!

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2011/08/05/there_aren_t_enough_rich_to_tax

Right now it looks like we're in a race to see whether the country or Obama will tank first. It looks like it's running neck and neck here. And the trick here is to make Obama tank first. Now, this UK Daily Mail story that you will not see in the US media. "Soak the rich, eh? They do not have the money. A report from the Internal Revenue Service found that the rich --" and the rich are defined this way: 8,274 people with incomes of $10 million per year or more. What do you think those 8,274 people earned combined in 2009? Snerdley, take a wild guess. All of you out there, take a wild guess in your mind. I'm not asking you to call and I'm gonna tell you what the number is here in just a second. But just think about this, 8,274 people with incomes of $10 million per year or more.

Now, you got Buffett in there and Gates at their $40 to 50 billion, but that's their net worth. What do they earn? It's a different number. But you take all of those people, just give me a number, what do you think, 8,274 people with incomes of $10 million per year or more, what was the combined total income earned of all those 8,274 people in 2009? One trillion, $250 billion. That's what you say, Brian? Snerdley says a trillion. The answer is $240 billion. Brian, you were $10 billion off. That's it. That's right. That's it. The 8,274 people with incomes of $10 million per year or more earned a total of $240 billion in 2009.

"Even of you confiscated every dime they earned, you would barely have enough money to cover government spending for 24 days." In fact, this $240 billion, I mean that's pretty close to the actual real number of budget cuts in the debt deal when you strip everything away. Now, about 25% of that money already goes to the federal government for federal income. So actually that $240 billion would run the government for 18 days.

"Another 227,000 people earned $1 million or more in 2009. Millionaires averaged taxes of 24.4% of their income -- up from 23.1% in 2008." Now, you might be asking, how did that happen? Well, the Bush tax cuts, folks. Obama's tax increases hadn't started, and Obama's not immaculated yet. "They, too, did not earn enough money to come anywhere close to covering the annual deficits that are $1.5 trillion a year." So 8,274 people who earn $10 million per year or more, earn a total of $240 billion in 2009. Another 227,000 people earned a million dollars or more in 2009. But it doesn't come anywhere close to covering the deficit of $1.5 trillion.

"Barack Obama was the first president to sign a budget with a $1 trillion deficit into law. In fact, all the taxpayers -- including the ones who get a refund check bigger than the withholding taxes they paid -- have the money." The point of this is next time you hear Obama or a Democrat say we've got to raise taxes on the rich, it's not about getting revenue to run the government because they don't have the money. Now, I've been doing this show for 23 years, and I have been employing this data, whatever the accurate data was for the year I was disclosing it, it hasn't changed in terms of percentages. Confiscate every dollar earned by people who make $10 million a year or more and you run the country for barely over two weeks. That has not changed since I first heard of this statistic 23, 25 years ago. It hasn't changed. As it is, these people are already paying 70% of the total income tax burden! So there's no economic growth hidden away here in a tax increase on these people.

How does taking money out of the private sector grow it? And that's what tax increases do. How in the world does taking money out of the private sector cause it to grow? Mathematically impossible, folks. From Reuters: "Total adjusted gross income reported on tax returns, measured in 2009 dollars, was $7.626 trillion, down from $8.233 trillion in 2008 and $8.989 trillion in 2007. Total adjusted gross income was up only slightly from the $7.475 trillion reported in 2001, when there were 10 million fewer taxpayers."

Individual tax collections equaled 15.4% of all income. "Doubling federal income taxes for everyone would still leave us $400 billion or so shy of balancing the budget." That's the bottom line. Doubling federal income taxes for everybody would raise $1.1 trillion, $400 billion shy of the deficit. I know these numbers are hard to follow, but all this is gonna be on RushLimbaugh.com later today, and I suggest you go there, print it out, or e-mail it, make electronic copies, PDF, whatever you want, and spread this around. This needs to be seen by many people. It's not going to be in the US media.


33 posted on 11/26/2011 1:36:40 PM PST by cynwoody
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To: Sub-Driver

I’ll gladly pay 3% to 5% more in federal taxes - as long as the 47% who pay not a damn cent are forced to pay at my tax rate. Until that happens, I will seek ways to mitigate my tax liability any way I can.


34 posted on 11/26/2011 1:40:45 PM PST by RobertClark ("Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed")
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To: Sub-Driver

He’s absolutely right, 47% of Americans do not pay enough Taxes.

That is what he said, right? I couldn’t get past the headline.


35 posted on 11/26/2011 1:42:30 PM PST by Kickass Conservative (Liberals, Useful Idiots Voting for Useless Idiots...)
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To: desertfreedom765

Who is John Galt


36 posted on 11/26/2011 1:50:49 PM PST by petro45acp (NO good endeavour survives an excess of "adult supervision" (hence the American experiment))
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To: jeffc
I consider that a plus.

I consider that a reason to rethink how we do taxes. I think it's time to skip soaking the rich, and leapfrog the middle class when it comes to asking for contributions.

No, I think it's time to target the poor. The Section Eight and WIC people. That wino squirting water on your windshield while holding a squeegee. We need to start taxing the living daylights out of this bunch: it has to be the most untapped source of cash in this country.

If we're going to strangle this goose, we need to quit pussyfooting around and do it right. Who's with me?

37 posted on 11/26/2011 1:51:19 PM PST by Cyber Liberty (Cain = National Sales Tax; Perry = Amnesty for Illegals; Romney = Obamacare forever. Who's left?)
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To: ClearCase_guy
There was also a general consensus that the "Bush tax cuts" are the whole reason this country is $15T in debt.

Ignorance is bliss. After the tax rate reductions, the goverment revenues from income taxes went from just shy of $1 trillion in 2002 to around $1.5 trillion in 2007.

Hard to believe liberals are so economically stupid with all those college degrees. (sarc /)

38 posted on 11/26/2011 2:44:07 PM PST by Go Gordon (President Poverty - President Downgrade - President Food Stamp - B. H. Obama)
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To: Sub-Driver

I have rebranded the network as MSDNC


39 posted on 11/26/2011 2:53:50 PM PST by ken5050 (Support Admin Mods: Doing the tough, hard, dirty jobs that Americans won't do...)
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To: Sub-Driver

Democrats really don’t believe that because the only people they are interested in taxing are the rich. And their just isn’t enough money there to support this supper welfare state. EVERYONE is going to have to give the collectivists MUCH MUCH MORE. Or slash it. That’s the choice.


40 posted on 11/26/2011 3:08:43 PM PST by DManA
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To: jeffc

““If you take all the taxes paid in the United States and you compared them against other countries, the U.S. overall taxes are the lowest as a percentage of the economy among developing countries,” said Hawkings.

I consider that a plus. Obviously, Mr. “I’m a socialist but won’t admit it” Hawkings thinks it not.”

Well look at Europe now, it is done, it cannot sustain, that cradle to grave safety net is failing. Why be like them when their model does not work? Government cannot create wealth, if it could the Dem platform would be a winner. Government can only tax wealth, and take it away, and then waste it.


41 posted on 11/26/2011 3:37:50 PM PST by Titus-Maximus (Light from Light)
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To: Sub-Driver

We hear this sort of thing fairly often - and always from well-heeled celebrities.

What these posturing phonies inevitably overlook is that those who wish to give the government more of their available funds are always free to do so - and certainly should.


42 posted on 11/26/2011 4:31:03 PM PST by Jack Hammer
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks Sub-Driver.

No thanks MSNBC.


43 posted on 11/26/2011 5:13:05 PM PST by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Sub-Driver

For the progs the solution to every problem is more spending, a.k.a. “investing”. The prog’s answer to more spending is more revenue through destructive tax increases on the wealthiest Americans.. Conspicuously absent is the discussion of spending limits or meaningful cuts in spending other than in the area of defense.


44 posted on 11/26/2011 5:44:17 PM PST by windsorknot
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To: ClearCase_guy

I guess they would be completely ignoring that the largest receipts to the treasury were in 2003 2004 and 2005?Some people can over look facts in favor of their liberal fables.


45 posted on 11/26/2011 10:08:05 PM PST by chris_bdba
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To: Jack Hammer

My solution is to tax everyone at MSNBC (from the CEO down to the janitor) at 100% of their salaries (plus all benefits) until their attitudes improve.


46 posted on 11/27/2011 12:25:08 AM PST by MasterGunner01 (To err is human; to forgive is not our policy. -- SEAL Team SIX)
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