How To Tell Who Is A "Moderate" Islamist? An Exam (Dr. Rubin Will Grade You Today!

Rubin Reports ^ | 11/26/2011 | Barry Rubin

[sand lake bar]

I’m not going g to defend the Koran, any more than I’d defend every word in the Bible. I’m saying that not all Muslims, especially, perhaps, American Muslims, follow a strict interpretation of the Koran and thus do not deserve hostility. Then you suggest that these friends of mine somehow aren’t authentic Muslims. Do you see the trap this puts you in when faced with vast numbers of people who look like Muslims, behave like Muslims, and consider themselves Muslims - but love this country and the freedom it offers? If you claim they are not “true Muslims,” then you must consider them worthy of your respect! To do otherwise would simply render you a bigot!

[sand lake bar]

Your first claim requires far more evidence. I doubt it would hold up to scrutiny, at least in America. Your second point is about doctrine, not about the character of individuals.

[sand lake bar]

I simply asked you a question. You twisted your own words. You said, I believe, “if I had my way...” That had nothing to do with whatever may or may not happen to moderate Muslims. You’re entitled to your own prejudice, but not your own facts.

Here’s a simple thought experiment. Let’s say I introduced you to 10 Muslims who believed in religious freedom and loved the United States. What would you conclude?
A) you change your mind about all Muslims
B) you conclude they are all lying (in which case you are immune to evidence)
C) you conclude they are not “true Muslims” (in which case you must consider granting them you respect)

Which would it be?

[IrishPennant]

Let’s say I introduced you to 10 Muslims who believed in religious freedom and loved the United States.

No thanks. Even if I was talking about muslims, which I was not (subject matter was islamists), I'll stick to picking my own friends.

[sand lake bar]

You kinda missed the whole point. I was trying logic. I guess you’re immune.

[IrishPennant]

No...you failed to stay “on point”... or vis a vie, on topic. .

[Steve Van Doorn]

you said,
"Your first claim requires far more evidence."

My claim:
"In western countries it runs around 10 to 40% support the Jihad."

Pew research polling backs my statement with this poll:

There are other polls showing similar numbers as Germany Muslim statistics about 10 to 15% support of the Jihad in the US. It is a much higher figure that actually support the Jihad through Zakat knowingly or unknowingly.

Yes you are exactly right the issue here is about doctrine not the character of the individual.
In other words once a person believes all other religions must submit, be enslaved or die then it becomes 'good character' to carry out what is needed to be done

[sand lake bar]

70% of Muslims support Obama? And this makes them an enemy? I guess you must feel even more strongly against blacks, since 90% of them support Obama!

Also, not one single American Muslim is obligated to prove his or her patriotism to you. Yet even if I gave you a list of 50 Muslims who opposed violent jihad, you would reject it and go on believing exactly the same way you do now.

I’m thankful that you are part of a fringe minority.

[sand lake bar]

Even if we assume that such polls are valid (a questionable assumption), it appears that majorities and pluralities say that violence is never justified. Moreover, you have no data at all from the United States, where I suspect violence would be rejected by even larger numbers.

There were plenty of Irish Catholics (and their American supporters) who believed it was right to kill and die for their religious and political cause. And yet, we don’t apply the broad brush to that religious group.

[Steve Van Doorn]

"assume that such polls are valid (a questionable assumption)...
majorities and pluralities say that violence is never justified...
you have no data at all from the United States...
we don’t apply the broad brush to that religious group."

You question a poll you didn't even look up yourself or the number of other polls similar to it.
You agree with my most important point which is not all that claim to be Muslim are evil.
You don't even read my post because I stated there are polls for the US that are similar to poll numbers in Germany.. I post those for this post. Which you don't even bother to look up yourself.

Your last point. No one can compare a murdering cult that is required to enslave all other religions when all other religions are based on at best loving thy neighbor too the worst having a neutral position of not harming other religions. This last point proves you never read or care to read the Quran. Which is my main point most Muslims that claim to be Muslim don't know or understand the Quran.

[Steve Van Doorn]

I post those for this post. = I didn't post those polls for this post.

[sand lake bar]

That does it. When the jihad starts here in America, I’m sending Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Shaquille O’Neil to your house.

[sand lake bar]

Your own polls indicate that most Muslims don’t support violence. I agree that not all Muslims are evil. In fact I believe the majority are not. If there are similar polls showing American Muslim opinions on violence, then go ahead and post them, preferably along with their methodology.

Your key fallacy is that you claim that all those who consider themselves to be Muslim must follow the Koran literally. You have no authority to make that claim. And if you point to others who make the claim, I can point to others who deny it. But more than that, you must now be willing to admit that millions of people who consider themselves Muslims, pray like Muslims, look like Muslims, etc., are no threat to you. Why? Because you don’t believe they are “true” Muslims.

[sand lake bar]

Don’t make me call Mohammed Ali too! I’d chat longer but I need to go to the jihad meeting. They’re serving free Hillal pizza tonight!

[Steve Van Doorn]

you don't read my posts at all do you?

we are making the same statements almost exactly. That not all muslims are evil and most do not even follow the Quran.

It doesn't matter you don't even try to understand.
I will try one more time:

Islam is evil Muslims are not.

do you understand this point? You should you are agreeing with everything I have said but don't know it.

[Steve Van Doorn]

Said, “post us a list of 50 public muslims who UNEQUIVOCALLY AND PUBLICLY oppose ALL violent jihad against Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists. “

I can but that would confuse things because they are all Ahmadi muslims. Their last prophet wasn't Mohammad it was a nice guy named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that over wrote Mohammad's evil. They are killed off just as fast as Christan's and Jews.

[MarMema]

Keep dreaming; when your muslim friends are done with you as a useful infidel, with any luck you will be so deep in fantasy land you won’t feel it when they cut your head off.

ROFL!!! Post of the week. Thank you so much.