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The terrorists have won
The Daily Caller ^ | 2011-12-02 | Jack Hunter

Posted on 12/05/2011 4:48:11 PM PST by rabscuttle385

Since 9/11, Senator Lindsey Graham has said repeatedly that we must fight the terrorists “over there” so we don’t have to fight them “over here.” But this week, Graham threw that all out the window. Apparently, we are now at war everywhere. Forever.

Commenting on the controversial Section 1031 of the National Defense Authorization Act — which many contend gives the federal government new powers to arrest American citizens without charge — Graham made clear this week that “1031, the statement of authority to detain, does apply to American citizens and it designates the world as the battlefield, including the homeland.”

The entire world is now a “battlefield”? “Including the homeland”?

There have been serious constitutional questions raised recently concerning whether our federal government should be able to arrest or assassinate American citizens overseas without charge or trial. This new and largely uncharted legal territory has been troublesome. But arresting or assassinating American citizens here in the United States without trial? Rounding up and holding American citizens indefinitely without charge? What country is this?

This is a new and unprecedented government power that should scare the living hell out of every last American. Rep. Justin Amash (R-MI) rightly called it “one of the most anti-liberty pieces of legislation of our lifetime.” Jim Gilmore, former Virginia governor and chairman of the Congressional Panel on Terrorism, roundly denounced it: “The provisions of this bill undermine the basic safeguards that we enjoy as Americans. It is dangerous, and should not be supported by anyone: Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, citizen or non-citizen.”

Added Gilmore: “This ill-considered bill is one of those dangers to our liberties by an unwise extension of military power in the homeland contrary to all law, precedent and history.”

As Amash and Gilmore note — and Graham ignores — the basic constitutional principle of protecting individual liberties through due process is not some negotiable piece of historical trivia. It is the bedrock of the most rudimentary American and Western law dating all the way back to the Magna Carta. Accepting this legislation blindly — as the majority of both parties seem entirely comfortable with — is to surrender the most basic of American liberties. Said Sen. Rand Paul, who fought hard and mostly alone to strip the National Defense Authorization Act of this terrifying provision: “Should we err today and remove some of the most important checks on state power in the name of fighting terrorism, well, then the terrorists have won.”

And the terrorists have won. If a primary purpose of terrorism is to induce fear, and Americans are willing to give up their most precious freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism, how is this anything less than a monumental victory for our enemies?

Most who support this new power for the federal government — and especially Graham — also agree that what we call the “war on terror” is a war that will last forever. In this light, this new legislation poses a particular danger, or as Sen. Paul explains: “During war, there has always been a struggle to preserve constitutional liberties. During the Civil War, the right of habeas corpus was suspended … Fortunately, those actions were reversed after the war.”

Paul then notes:

The discussion now to suspend certain rights to due process is especially worrisome, given that we are engaged in a war that appears to have no end. Rights given up now cannot be expected to be returned. So we do well to contemplate the diminishment of due process, knowing that the rights we lose now may never be restored.

A state of permanent war inevitably means permanent loss of liberties. When “protecting our freedoms” is defined by gradually giving them up one by one, Americans are no longer protected or free. This was understood well by our Founding Fathers and was one of the primary reasons they wrote the Constitution their descendants are now so eager to discard. Benjamin Franklin believed that when you give up liberty for security, you get neither. James Madison wrote:

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other...In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people...

The great fear in allowing government officials to forgo due process is not that it might hurt actual terrorists (for the record, I’m in favor of hurting actual terrorists, badly) but that it might hurt you, me or any other innocent American in the future. To support giving government this sort of power, you must assume two things: 1) Government never makes mistakes; and 2) Government never abuses its power. I know few who believe either.

Let us gauge our decline in our rhetoric. James Madison said in 1795: “No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.” Lindsey Graham said this week, boastfully: “When they say, ‘I want to talk to a lawyer,’ we tell them, ‘Shut up! You don’t get a lawyer!’”

This isn’t protecting America. It’s destroying it.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: absolutedespotism; biggovernment; bloodoftyrants; communism; congress; corruption; cwii; democrats; fascism; govtabuse; graham; liberalfascism; longtrainofabuses; lping; mccaintruthfile; nationaldefenseact; nazistate; policestate; possecomitatus; rapeofliberty; resettime; southernavenger; terroristshavewon; tyranny; unconstitutional; war4ever; waronliberty; wot
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1 posted on 12/05/2011 4:48:23 PM PST by rabscuttle385
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To: rabscuttle385

We have always been at war with Eastasia.


2 posted on 12/05/2011 4:50:20 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it. (plagiarized))
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To: Navy Patriot

You sure about that?

I thought it was Eurasia....that’s what I was reading yesterday.

Guess I didn’t get the memo from Minitrue. Better update all my files. Thanks for letting us know!


3 posted on 12/05/2011 4:53:20 PM PST by AnAmericanAbroad (It's all bread and circuses for the future prey of the Morlocks.)
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To: rabscuttle385
When people started pushing this idea after 9/11 about a "War on Terror", a lot of us knew it was a bad idea to talk about a war on a concept, since it would inevitably lead to a war without end.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Our grandchildren and their grandchildren will someday be cursing us for letting all of this happen on our watch.

That is, if they even realize what they have lost.
4 posted on 12/05/2011 4:57:06 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: AnAmericanAbroad; Navy Patriot

It is time for the two minutes of hate brothers!


5 posted on 12/05/2011 4:58:58 PM PST by EEGator
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To: rabscuttle385

The industrial military complex has won with this new bill. And they will use it upon the citizens of the USA.


6 posted on 12/05/2011 5:00:25 PM PST by guitarplayer1953
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To: af_vet_rr

Then the only option left to us will be to go down swinging, if go down we must. No surrender.


7 posted on 12/05/2011 5:02:22 PM PST by Noumenon (The only 'NO' a liberal understands is the one that arrives at muzzle velocity.)
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To: Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; albertp; Alexander Rubin; Allosaurs_r_us; amchugh; ...
...arresting or assassinating American citizens here in the United States without trial? Rounding up and holding American citizens indefinitely without charge? What country is this?

Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here.

8 posted on 12/05/2011 5:03:21 PM PST by rabscuttle385 (Live Free or Die)
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To: rabscuttle385

Really? Are you kneeling before Allah every sunrise and sunset? Are we no longer building high rise buildings?


9 posted on 12/05/2011 5:05:17 PM PST by yup2394871293
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To: EEGator
WOO HOO!!! My favorite time of the day!! Can't wait until next year's Hate Week! This year's was really good!!!
10 posted on 12/05/2011 5:10:52 PM PST by AnAmericanAbroad (It's all bread and circuses for the future prey of the Morlocks.)
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To: Navy Patriot

Everyone should dust off that old copy of 1984 in the attic next to the LP’s and reaquaint themselves with it.


11 posted on 12/05/2011 5:13:36 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: yup2394871293

Are you in favor of that provision in the bill? Do you agree with Graham and McCain?


12 posted on 12/05/2011 5:16:39 PM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: rabscuttle385
Graham said this week, boastfully: “When they say, ‘I want to talk to a lawyer,’ we tell them, ‘Shut up! You don’t get a lawyer!’”

From infoplease.com
On February 19, 1942, soon after the beginning of World War II, Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066. The evacuation order commenced the round-up of 120,000 Americans of Japanese heritage to one of 10 internment camps—officially called "relocation centers"—in California, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and Arkansas.snip

In Canada, similar evacuation orders were established. Nearly 23,000 Nikkei, or Canadians of Japanese descent, were sent to camps in British Columbia. It was the greatest mass movement in the history of Canada.snip

Legal Challenges to Internment
Two important legal cases were brought against the United States concerning the internment. The landmark cases were Hirabayashi v. United States (1943), and Korematsu v. United States (1944). The defendants argued their fifth amendment rights were violated by the U.S. government because of their ancestry. In both cases, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the U.S. government.

13 posted on 12/05/2011 5:29:41 PM PST by Capt. Tom
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To: rabscuttle385

They aren’t even trying to hide their intentions anymore.

The frogs are almost done boiling.


14 posted on 12/05/2011 5:31:55 PM PST by hfr (Liberalism is a moral disorder that leads to mental disorder (actually it's sin))
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To: SpaceBar

My personal favorite part of 1984 is “The Book”....The Theory and Practice of Oligarchial Collectivism, by Emmanuel Goldstein.

As I’ve often darkly joked, 1984 is meant to be a warning.....not an instruction manual.

Oh, yeah, that and Brave New World. Keep the masses happy with soma (you know, American Idol, “reality” TV) and the majority of folks really don’t give a hoot in hell what their leaders get up to, as long as the economy stays reasonably good (or has the illusion of it).


15 posted on 12/05/2011 5:33:29 PM PST by AnAmericanAbroad (It's all bread and circuses for the future prey of the Morlocks.)
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To: AnAmericanAbroad
that and Brave New World...

Stir in a cup of Atlas Shrugged as well.
16 posted on 12/05/2011 5:46:08 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: Capt. Tom

Okay, let’s round up all Muslim Americans then.


17 posted on 12/05/2011 6:47:06 PM PST by RipSawyer (This does not end well!)
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To: rabscuttle385
The terrorists have won

...And they occupy every office of the US Government.

...Ladies and Gentlemen, if we are at war here, it's time to port arms and fix bayonets.

18 posted on 12/05/2011 6:55:36 PM PST by gargoyle (...Amendments 1 and 2, a well informed public and a well regulated militia...)
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To: RipSawyer
Okay, let’s round up all Muslim Americans then.

You could if you specifically declared a war on "Islam." However the war is declared on "Terror" instead. -Tom

19 posted on 12/05/2011 7:14:56 PM PST by Capt. Tom
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To: AnAmericanAbroad

Doubleplusgood brother.


20 posted on 12/05/2011 7:25:00 PM PST by EEGator
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To: Navy Patriot
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in George Orwell's novel of dystopia 1984 Eastasia is the continental state that the government is continuously at war with... I don't have the book in front of me to check.
21 posted on 12/05/2011 7:39:35 PM PST by ArmyTeach (Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain ... USS Iowa BB 61)
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To: ArmyTeach

(Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle) I should have read further. Y’all were way ahead of me.


22 posted on 12/05/2011 7:43:07 PM PST by ArmyTeach (Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain ... USS Iowa BB 61)
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To: rabscuttle385

Saw a poster that read:

“IF TERRORISTS HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM, THEN ISN’T THE PATRIOT ACT APPEASEMENT?”


23 posted on 12/05/2011 7:47:37 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: rabscuttle385

It would be interesting to see, if Al Queda actually took military control of a US town and our own military was not allowed to take it back because they’re not allowed to fight on US soil.

As to internment... What was America supposed to do, when some Japanese Americans were actively spying for the Emperor? When its your decision to make, and tens of thousands of American lives hang in the balance, it gets a little tougher.


24 posted on 12/05/2011 8:08:18 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I'd give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: Scotsman will be Free

No. And no to more special WoT provisions, no more Graham, and no more McCain.


25 posted on 12/05/2011 9:08:08 PM PST by yup2394871293
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To: hfr

They all know the pot is going to boil over one day and they want to be prepared to start rounding up all the freedom fighters I mean domestic terrorists.


26 posted on 12/05/2011 9:18:16 PM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: rabscuttle385
Commenting on the controversial Section 1031 of the National Defense Authorization Act — which many contend gives the federal government new powers to arrest American citizens without charge — Graham made clear this week that “1031, the statement of authority to detain, does apply to American citizens and it designates the world as the battlefield, including the homeland.” The entire world is now a “battlefield”? “Including the homeland”?

Islamic Doctrine states that the world is divided into two parts:

Dar al-Islam (House of Islam)

Dar al-Harb (House of War)

With this bill, United States law is now in obedience with Islamic precepts, by declaring itself in two parts:

Dar al-Fed (House of Direct Federal Authority)

Dar al-Harb (House of War)

In other words, the Natural Person under States Rights, as structured by the Bill of Rights, has now been declared by the Federal Government as Dar al-Harb.

The only proper reply to this atrocity is an immediate lawsuit by all 50 States.

27 posted on 12/05/2011 9:37:05 PM PST by Talisker (History will show the Illuminati won the ultimate Darwin Award.)
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To: rabscuttle385

Shariamerica, in case some of you missed this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErzxOz3Dzv8


28 posted on 12/05/2011 9:52:14 PM PST by Tramonto (9 9 9)
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To: rabscuttle385

This bill could be nefarious, unfortunately the willfull lying about what the bill exactly states taints the assertion it is as bad as stated. If you don’t know that I’m talking about then you need to read the bill like I did.


29 posted on 12/05/2011 10:38:52 PM PST by Ajnin (Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnocet!)
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To: Ajnin
If you don’t know that I’m talking about then you need to read the bill like I did =

If you don’t know what I’m talking about then you need to read the bill like I did

30 posted on 12/05/2011 10:40:29 PM PST by Ajnin (Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnocet!)
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To: ArmyTeach; AnAmericanAbroad
You are both right, Eurasia, Eastasia, and Oceania have always been at war with one another, or not, as convenient.

That was Orwell's point.

31 posted on 12/06/2011 7:08:24 AM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it. (plagiarized))
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To: yup2394871293

Ok. Your post that I was responding to sounded like you were in favor of it.


32 posted on 12/06/2011 7:46:19 AM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: rabscuttle385; OneWingedShark; hiredhand; NFHale; Squantos; sickoflibs; stephenjohnbanker
ok guys, riddle me this...

*if* the CONUS is now officially, by fed proclamation, a warzone, what does that do for the 'militia' ??? we have an estimated 10-30 million foreign invaders inside the border, and a declared war [by the jihadi gubmints] and we reside in an official hot zone...

what precedent/prerequisite does this suggest for the *next* move by the fed ???

it i now live in a hotspot, it would seem that the fed, or my state guard would be calling me to muster and receive my M4 and kevlar, or they are arranging the pieces to declare me and outlaw/terrorist if i insist on my God given FReedom...

33 posted on 12/06/2011 11:14:26 AM PST by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: rabscuttle385

Hunter simply believes in giving into every terrorist demand. That and endoring leftist democrats while working for the American Dhimmi.


34 posted on 12/06/2011 4:52:07 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: yup2394871293

Well, do you see a rebuilt WTC in New York?

And yes, builders no longer are trying to build high-rises as high now, due to people’s fears of being unable to evacuate if the need arose.


35 posted on 12/06/2011 5:05:05 PM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: EEGator

Two minutes of hate?


36 posted on 12/06/2011 5:19:57 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Ramius
It would be interesting to see, if Al Queda actually took military control of a US town and our own military was not allowed to take it back because they’re not allowed to fight on US soil.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

You know, I can't see anything there (or here) that prevents the armed forces from fighting on US soil.

37 posted on 12/06/2011 5:25:23 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

It’s from George Orwell’s 1984. If you haven’t read it, you should.


38 posted on 12/06/2011 5:37:58 PM PST by EEGator
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To: EEGator

I’ve read it; years ago... I just don’t remember that part.


39 posted on 12/06/2011 5:38:51 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

At work they would gather and spend two minutes yelling and screaming at an image of Emmanuel Goldstein.


40 posted on 12/06/2011 5:41:54 PM PST by EEGator
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To: rabscuttle385
Well, they've finally come out and plainly stated who the real enemy is: the citizens of this nation.

Someday, you may be hearing about attacks on government facilities by "terrorists" on the evening news. Who will you be supporting? Will you believe the ministries of propaganda as seen on the nightly news? Or not?

41 posted on 12/06/2011 5:59:00 PM PST by zeugma (Those of us who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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To: gogogodzilla
Well, do you see a rebuilt WTC in New York?

Yes.
42 posted on 12/06/2011 5:59:12 PM PST by yup2394871293
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To: gogogodzilla
The one in progress may not be the proposed one that you liked, but how much did you invest the the WTC, anyway?

I must admit I like this idea:


43 posted on 12/06/2011 6:06:56 PM PST by yup2394871293
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To: Ramius
As to internment... What was America supposed to do, when some Japanese Americans were actively spying for the Emperor? When its your decision to make, and tens of thousands of American lives hang in the balance, it gets a little tougher.

So basically all of them need to be rounded up because of a few? America should abandon all principles I see. One of the Founders of this country had a quote specifically for times like this.

What scares me more than your post is that you are an eligible voter.
44 posted on 12/06/2011 8:57:28 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: randomhero97

I’m not so much defending internment. I’m merely saying that when the decision is ~yours~ to make... Given the information available at the time it isn’t always so easy as it seems after the passage of decades and with the benefit of hindsight.

You are the President. You know that there are at least a few hundred spies (which was actually true) in the Japanese population of some thousands. How many lives of servicemen in the war, are you willing to sacrifice in order to not inconvenience the innocent Japanese Americans? There will be a cost. It will cost some lives. There will be some ships sunk or not sunk because of this decision. So... How many troops is it worth to you? How many letters home to mothers that lost a son?

A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? More?

Decisions have consequences. Both ways.


45 posted on 12/06/2011 9:19:04 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I'd give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: rabscuttle385; SunkenCiv

Bump & Ping


46 posted on 12/07/2011 9:07:51 AM PST by EdReform (Oath Keepers - Guardians of the Republic - Honor your oath - Join us: www.oathkeepers.org)
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To: yup2394871293

Yeah, that’s the one that should have been built.


47 posted on 12/07/2011 12:30:03 PM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: yup2394871293

No we’ve “just” decided that any person in this country can be detained indefinitely without ever facing charges of any kind.

Terrorism isn’t about changing your religion. It’s about changing your actions. With this we have allowed fear to let us stop being America. They win.


48 posted on 12/07/2011 12:34:06 PM PST by discostu (How Will I Laugh Tomorrow When I Can't Even Smile Today)
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To: EdReform; AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; ...

Thanks EdReform.


49 posted on 12/07/2011 6:46:59 PM PST by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Gilbo_3; supercat; rabscuttle385; OneWingedShark; hiredhand; NFHale; Squantos; sickoflibs; ...
ok guys, riddle me this...
 
*if* the CONUS is now officially, by fed proclamation, a warzone, what does that do for the 'militia' ??? we have an estimated 10-30 million foreign invaders inside the border, and a declared war [by the jihadi gubmints] and we reside in an official hot zone...

Well now, this opens some interesting challenges to civil authorities. Take, for instance, an informal (or even formal) muster of the militia. This being a war-zone prohibitions against such can be challenged as being aid to the enemy; furthermore, "gun-free zones" are now officially disarming you in a war-zone! So, there are several new ways which we may challenge stupid gun laws.

50 posted on 12/08/2011 4:32:16 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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