Skip to comments.The terrorists have won
Posted on 12/05/2011 4:48:11 PM PST by rabscuttle385
Since 9/11, Senator Lindsey Graham has said repeatedly that we must fight the terrorists over there so we dont have to fight them over here. But this week, Graham threw that all out the window. Apparently, we are now at war everywhere. Forever.
Commenting on the controversial Section 1031 of the National Defense Authorization Act which many contend gives the federal government new powers to arrest American citizens without charge Graham made clear this week that 1031, the statement of authority to detain, does apply to American citizens and it designates the world as the battlefield, including the homeland.
The entire world is now a battlefield? Including the homeland?
There have been serious constitutional questions raised recently concerning whether our federal government should be able to arrest or assassinate American citizens overseas without charge or trial. This new and largely uncharted legal territory has been troublesome. But arresting or assassinating American citizens here in the United States without trial? Rounding up and holding American citizens indefinitely without charge? What country is this?
This is a new and unprecedented government power that should scare the living hell out of every last American. Rep. Justin Amash (R-MI) rightly called it one of the most anti-liberty pieces of legislation of our lifetime. Jim Gilmore, former Virginia governor and chairman of the Congressional Panel on Terrorism, roundly denounced it: The provisions of this bill undermine the basic safeguards that we enjoy as Americans. It is dangerous, and should not be supported by anyone: Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, citizen or non-citizen.
Added Gilmore: This ill-considered bill is one of those dangers to our liberties by an unwise extension of military power in the homeland contrary to all law, precedent and history.
As Amash and Gilmore note and Graham ignores the basic constitutional principle of protecting individual liberties through due process is not some negotiable piece of historical trivia. It is the bedrock of the most rudimentary American and Western law dating all the way back to the Magna Carta. Accepting this legislation blindly as the majority of both parties seem entirely comfortable with is to surrender the most basic of American liberties. Said Sen. Rand Paul, who fought hard and mostly alone to strip the National Defense Authorization Act of this terrifying provision: Should we err today and remove some of the most important checks on state power in the name of fighting terrorism, well, then the terrorists have won.
And the terrorists have won. If a primary purpose of terrorism is to induce fear, and Americans are willing to give up their most precious freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism, how is this anything less than a monumental victory for our enemies?
Most who support this new power for the federal government and especially Graham also agree that what we call the war on terror is a war that will last forever. In this light, this new legislation poses a particular danger, or as Sen. Paul explains: During war, there has always been a struggle to preserve constitutional liberties. During the Civil War, the right of habeas corpus was suspended Fortunately, those actions were reversed after the war.
Paul then notes:
The discussion now to suspend certain rights to due process is especially worrisome, given that we are engaged in a war that appears to have no end. Rights given up now cannot be expected to be returned. So we do well to contemplate the diminishment of due process, knowing that the rights we lose now may never be restored.
A state of permanent war inevitably means permanent loss of liberties. When protecting our freedoms is defined by gradually giving them up one by one, Americans are no longer protected or free. This was understood well by our Founding Fathers and was one of the primary reasons they wrote the Constitution their descendants are now so eager to discard. Benjamin Franklin believed that when you give up liberty for security, you get neither. James Madison wrote:
Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other...In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people...
The great fear in allowing government officials to forgo due process is not that it might hurt actual terrorists (for the record, Im in favor of hurting actual terrorists, badly) but that it might hurt you, me or any other innocent American in the future. To support giving government this sort of power, you must assume two things: 1) Government never makes mistakes; and 2) Government never abuses its power. I know few who believe either.
Let us gauge our decline in our rhetoric. James Madison said in 1795: No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. Lindsey Graham said this week, boastfully: When they say, I want to talk to a lawyer, we tell them, Shut up! You dont get a lawyer!
This isnt protecting America. Its destroying it.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
You sure about that?
I thought it was Eurasia....that’s what I was reading yesterday.
Guess I didn’t get the memo from Minitrue. Better update all my files. Thanks for letting us know!
It is time for the two minutes of hate brothers!
The industrial military complex has won with this new bill. And they will use it upon the citizens of the USA.
Then the only option left to us will be to go down swinging, if go down we must. No surrender.
Really? Are you kneeling before Allah every sunrise and sunset? Are we no longer building high rise buildings?
Everyone should dust off that old copy of 1984 in the attic next to the LP’s and reaquaint themselves with it.
Are you in favor of that provision in the bill? Do you agree with Graham and McCain?
On February 19, 1942, soon after the beginning of World War II, Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066. The evacuation order commenced the round-up of 120,000 Americans of Japanese heritage to one of 10 internment campsofficially called "relocation centers"in California, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and Arkansas.snip
In Canada, similar evacuation orders were established. Nearly 23,000 Nikkei, or Canadians of Japanese descent, were sent to camps in British Columbia. It was the greatest mass movement in the history of Canada.snip
Legal Challenges to Internment
Two important legal cases were brought against the United States concerning the internment. The landmark cases were Hirabayashi v. United States (1943), and Korematsu v. United States (1944). The defendants argued their fifth amendment rights were violated by the U.S. government because of their ancestry. In both cases, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the U.S. government.
They aren’t even trying to hide their intentions anymore.
The frogs are almost done boiling.
My personal favorite part of 1984 is “The Book”....The Theory and Practice of Oligarchial Collectivism, by Emmanuel Goldstein.
As I’ve often darkly joked, 1984 is meant to be a warning.....not an instruction manual.
Oh, yeah, that and Brave New World. Keep the masses happy with soma (you know, American Idol, “reality” TV) and the majority of folks really don’t give a hoot in hell what their leaders get up to, as long as the economy stays reasonably good (or has the illusion of it).
Okay, let’s round up all Muslim Americans then.
...And they occupy every office of the US Government.
...Ladies and Gentlemen, if we are at war here, it's time to port arms and fix bayonets.
You could if you specifically declared a war on "Islam." However the war is declared on "Terror" instead. -Tom
(Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle) I should have read further. Y’all were way ahead of me.
Saw a poster that read:
“IF TERRORISTS HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM, THEN ISN’T THE PATRIOT ACT APPEASEMENT?”
It would be interesting to see, if Al Queda actually took military control of a US town and our own military was not allowed to take it back because they’re not allowed to fight on US soil.
As to internment... What was America supposed to do, when some Japanese Americans were actively spying for the Emperor? When its your decision to make, and tens of thousands of American lives hang in the balance, it gets a little tougher.
No. And no to more special WoT provisions, no more Graham, and no more McCain.
They all know the pot is going to boil over one day and they want to be prepared to start rounding up all the freedom fighters I mean domestic terrorists.
Islamic Doctrine states that the world is divided into two parts:
Dar al-Islam (House of Islam)
Dar al-Harb (House of War)
With this bill, United States law is now in obedience with Islamic precepts, by declaring itself in two parts:
Dar al-Fed (House of Direct Federal Authority)
Dar al-Harb (House of War)
In other words, the Natural Person under States Rights, as structured by the Bill of Rights, has now been declared by the Federal Government as Dar al-Harb.
The only proper reply to this atrocity is an immediate lawsuit by all 50 States.
Shariamerica, in case some of you missed this.
This bill could be nefarious, unfortunately the willfull lying about what the bill exactly states taints the assertion it is as bad as stated. If you don’t know that I’m talking about then you need to read the bill like I did.
If you dont know what Im talking about then you need to read the bill like I did
That was Orwell's point.
Ok. Your post that I was responding to sounded like you were in favor of it.
*if* the CONUS is now officially, by fed proclamation, a warzone, what does that do for the 'militia' ??? we have an estimated 10-30 million foreign invaders inside the border, and a declared war [by the jihadi gubmints] and we reside in an official hot zone...
what precedent/prerequisite does this suggest for the *next* move by the fed ???
it i now live in a hotspot, it would seem that the fed, or my state guard would be calling me to muster and receive my M4 and kevlar, or they are arranging the pieces to declare me and outlaw/terrorist if i insist on my God given FReedom...
Hunter simply believes in giving into every terrorist demand. That and endoring leftist democrats while working for the American Dhimmi.
Well, do you see a rebuilt WTC in New York?
And yes, builders no longer are trying to build high-rises as high now, due to people’s fears of being unable to evacuate if the need arose.
Two minutes of hate?
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
You know, I can't see anything there (or here) that prevents the armed forces from fighting on US soil.
It’s from George Orwell’s 1984. If you haven’t read it, you should.
I’ve read it; years ago... I just don’t remember that part.
At work they would gather and spend two minutes yelling and screaming at an image of Emmanuel Goldstein.
Someday, you may be hearing about attacks on government facilities by "terrorists" on the evening news. Who will you be supporting? Will you believe the ministries of propaganda as seen on the nightly news? Or not?
I’m not so much defending internment. I’m merely saying that when the decision is ~yours~ to make... Given the information available at the time it isn’t always so easy as it seems after the passage of decades and with the benefit of hindsight.
You are the President. You know that there are at least a few hundred spies (which was actually true) in the Japanese population of some thousands. How many lives of servicemen in the war, are you willing to sacrifice in order to not inconvenience the innocent Japanese Americans? There will be a cost. It will cost some lives. There will be some ships sunk or not sunk because of this decision. So... How many troops is it worth to you? How many letters home to mothers that lost a son?
A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? More?
Decisions have consequences. Both ways.
Bump & Ping
Yeah, that’s the one that should have been built.
No we’ve “just” decided that any person in this country can be detained indefinitely without ever facing charges of any kind.
Terrorism isn’t about changing your religion. It’s about changing your actions. With this we have allowed fear to let us stop being America. They win.
Well now, this opens some interesting challenges to civil authorities. Take, for instance, an informal (or even formal) muster of the militia. This being a war-zone prohibitions against such can be challenged as being aid to the enemy; furthermore, "gun-free zones" are now officially disarming you in a war-zone! So, there are several new ways which we may challenge stupid gun laws.