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Guard Unit Refusing to Answer if They Would Use Lethal Force Against American People.
oathkeepers.org ^ | December 8th, 2011 | Paul Lowe

Posted on 12/08/2011 2:41:37 PM PST by George Varnum

...3 companies of infantry were polled by questionnaire about the drill and it’s purpose. One of the questions was, will you as a member of the Nat. Guard use lethal force against the American public if ordered to do so? One of the men stepped forward and refused to take the poll and explained that it was a moral judgement on his part and that he could not do so. He then placed his weapon on the ground and fell in behind the formation. Devon said it was like a waterfall, Every member layed their weapons on the deck and fell in beside the one lone specialist. ...

(Excerpt) Read more at oathkeepers.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government
KEYWORDS: army; questionnaire; refusal
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I suspect that this sort of thing is a "test". A similar "questionnaire" was put to the Marine Corps several years ago during the Clinton regime. There was a bit of a ruckus about it, and many of the Marines later privately admitted that they just lied about it, since they were pretty sure that answering in the negative would have probably cost them future promotions and choice assignments, if not their military careers.

If this story is true, then these troops who might (?) also be Marines have taken a much more proactive response to it, and are calling the regime's bluff. That takes courage.

It will be interesting to determine (if we can) whether this is an accurate account, and if so what the consequences to these young Patriots will eventually be. Obviously the courageous "Point man" is being made an example of, as is a common military practice. Another common military practice is to punish an entire Unit for the misdeeds or infractions of one or a few. If true, this probably isn't over.

As many of my regular correspondents and E-mail "Intel Loop" members know, I have been speculating for some time now about how an unconstitutional Muslim Stalinist usurper President may well emulate his Idol's historic tactics to assure the "loyalty" of the Soviet military back in the 1930s.

It was called the "Great Purge", and it wasn't pretty.

So I'm an alarmist and conspiracy theorist... OK; ...but I will be greatly blessed and relieved (again, assuming veracity of this story) if those brave, patriotic American Warriors are still "among us" being seen and heard from a year from now.

1 posted on 12/08/2011 2:41:52 PM PST by George Varnum
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To: George Varnum

Okay, so what happened at Kent State?


2 posted on 12/08/2011 2:50:18 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: George Varnum

Post # 57 at the link say the General in charge of the CA Nat’l Guard insists this never happened.

What would you expect him to say?

This requires more investigation and sunshine.


3 posted on 12/08/2011 2:52:02 PM PST by G Larry ("I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his Character.")
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To: SkyDancer
Evidently, something so different in character from what the administration has in mind that the need was seen for this questionnaire.
4 posted on 12/08/2011 2:52:36 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: George Varnum

The oath is to “...protect and defend the constitution...”, not “congress, the president, or inside the beltway”.

It appears our young military folks are far better acquainted with the constitution than are the low lifes in D.C.

Beware, politicians...you have not corrupted all of our folks ...yet.

As for Kent State, those folks should not have been there...and they obviously were not well briefed. Try looking at LBJ, a master felon if there ever was one.


5 posted on 12/08/2011 2:54:34 PM PST by Da Coyote (Liberalism - when you absolutely, positively have no ability to produce wealth.)
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To: SkyDancer

Sharper cultural divide, higher emotions, back then.


6 posted on 12/08/2011 2:55:02 PM PST by G Larry ("I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his Character.")
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To: SkyDancer

>> Okay, so what happened at Kent State?

Good question. My opinion: there will *always* be the possibility of isolated events, but I don’t think our current voluntary military has the stomach for widespread military violence against its own.

Over the course of years, that could change I suppose.

Also I have heard it said that if you need to do military “police action” in the Philadelphia ‘hood you handpick southern rednecks for the job, and if you need troops to put down a rural insurrection you choose your inner city ghetto youth, and so forth... leverage local tastes so to speak.


7 posted on 12/08/2011 2:58:04 PM PST by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: George Varnum

When I served in the US Navy, we were taught that it was our obligation and duty to refuse to obey an illegal order.

The responsibility for this should be laid where it deserves: directly on the US Congress.

The problem as I see it: Obama is bringing in hundreds of thousands of Muslims as refugees. We have a southern border that actually no longer exists and millions of people who hate the USA are flooding into our nation. Our DOJ will not protect the civil rights of whites, Christians or Jews.

We are being set up.


8 posted on 12/08/2011 2:58:31 PM PST by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS U.S.A. PRESIDENT)
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To: SkyDancer

Well, according to at least one version, a provocateur shot at the Nat’l Guard first, thereby sparking the entire incident.


9 posted on 12/08/2011 2:59:11 PM PST by Valpal1 (Worst tyranny is to force a man to pay for what he does not want because you think it good for him.)
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To: G Larry
Post # 57 at the link say the General in charge of the CA Nat’l Guard insists this never happened.

I'm inclined to believe the General. This sounds like one of those things you get in an email with "FWD FWD FWD, in front of the title.

10 posted on 12/08/2011 3:03:09 PM PST by Graybeard58 (Of course Obama loves his country but I want a President who loves mine.)
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To: George Varnum

This is actually an interesting question that I have been expecting to see come up. A lot of speculation has been aimed at what the National Guard or the military would do if, for example, Americans were to revolt against their government.

While the “sample size” is pretty small, it does provide some insight into the way that the military feels toward American civilians.

One respondent to this post asked about Kent State. Kent State occurred in a totally different environment and a very different set of circumstances. The Vietnam War had been so propagandized and denigrated by the media, John Kerry, Jane Fonda and Walter Cronkite as an “unpopular war” that all of the military men and women of the day were equally denigrated by the American public. It didn’t matter if a serviceman or woman had actually served in Vietnam, if they wore a uniform, they were guilty.

Today’s military enjoy the benefit of being wildly supported by the public, even though the media still despise them. As a result, the environment is different. In addition, they DO have the perspective of time to look back at what happened at Kent State and learn from it. I honestly doubt that many National Guard or active duty military would be willing to open fire on American citizens today. Too many things have changed and are different.


11 posted on 12/08/2011 3:05:17 PM PST by DustyMoment (Congress - Another name for white collar criminals!!)
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To: SkyDancer
I suggest you look up the facts. It was a perfect storm of bad judgment, poor tactical deployment, and poor training.
12 posted on 12/08/2011 3:09:30 PM PST by MCF
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To: SkyDancer
For what that's worth how about the Detroit and Watts riots in the 60's and the Rodney King riots?

I would allow anybody under arms to defend themselves if they felt threatened while in the performance of their duties.

There is credible evidence of a gunshot before the fatal volley at Kent State. Personally, if someone was throwing bricks, rocks and molatov cocktails at me and I heard a gunshot, I would probably react in a most agressive manner.

13 posted on 12/08/2011 3:14:03 PM PST by pfflier
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To: MCF

So what’s to prevent the same thing from happening again. Same scenario different place maybe like OWS protests? There were some violent actions against the cops. What would have happened if untrained NG troops came? (untrained as in riot control)


14 posted on 12/08/2011 3:15:48 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: George Varnum

Sorry, but this isn’t remotely believable.


15 posted on 12/08/2011 3:16:05 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: BenLurkin

Maybe they want to find out where the military stands on shooting American citizens. If just one quarter of what Obama is doing now Bush did, there’d be a media riot over that alone.


16 posted on 12/08/2011 3:18:10 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: pfflier

Just looked it up. Seems there was someone there with a pistol. http://www.cleveland.com/science/index.ssf/2010/10/analysis_of_kent_state_audio_t.html


17 posted on 12/08/2011 3:25:45 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: SkyDancer
Okay, so what happened at Kent State?

That was my first thought...

Mark

18 posted on 12/08/2011 3:27:22 PM PST by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: George Varnum

This story doesn’t pass muster. Smells just like a fishy rumor to me. BS.


19 posted on 12/08/2011 3:27:44 PM PST by tupac
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To: George Varnum
The only people left in front of the original formation was 3 Capt’s. 2 Lt’s and the BN Commander who was so upset he started having chest pains from yelling and screaming about court martials and disbandment of the unit into other units.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If this is true, I am deeply saddened by the behavior of the officers. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! on them!

These officers took and oath before God to uphold the Constitution. They LIED! They lied to the American people. They lied to God! They bore false witness. They took the Lord's name in vain.

Taking the Lord's name in vain has far far far **MORE** deeper implications that merely saying, “G__ D___!” It means swearing an oath and LYING while doing it! These officers evidently had absolutely NO NO NO intention of upholding the Constitution when they swore before God to do so.

Exodus 20:7 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.”

By the way...I am DISGUSTED with our very highest military. When did ignoring Obama’s forgeries, identity theft, multiple social security numbers, failure to e-verify, election fraud, and other crimes become part of the military code of honor? How did this become part of defending the Constitution? Is **this** how they watch the backs of the brave and honorable troops serving under them. ( Pass the barf bucket, please!)

20 posted on 12/08/2011 3:32:04 PM PST by wintertime (I am a Constitutional Restorationist!!! Yes!)
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To: George Varnum

It was irresponsible for Oath Keepers and anyone else to report this without confirmation.

People can only form an opinion with all the information. There are too many that get riled up, only to find the story untrue. If this proves to be true, then I will be as upset as anyone else, and join action against this purported tyranny.

US Army, Sgt, 1976-1984


21 posted on 12/08/2011 3:33:13 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: SkyDancer

Not the same thing.

If my memory serves, the Guardsmen thought they were being fired on.

I am a Army vet.


22 posted on 12/08/2011 3:35:51 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: Mr. Lucky
I just heard from Devon. He was TX’d by his Plt LDR and advised that the Specialist Who first layed down his weapon is being held in county jail by the Bn CMDR

Most counties have their inmate list online.

23 posted on 12/08/2011 3:40:07 PM PST by aimhigh
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To: G Larry

As the author of the article at Oath Keeper states, the story is unconfirmed. The story shouldn’t have been posted here or anywhere until it was confirmed, because of the backlash from people going off half-cocked.

So if the General says it never happened then he must be lieing, right?


24 posted on 12/08/2011 3:40:15 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: SkyDancer
Okay, so what happened at Kent State?

Untrained troops forced to deal with radical, violent and naive, marxist directed students.............chaos

As in every Marxist movement, deaths of the participants aren't mourned but celebrated since they died for the cause.

25 posted on 12/08/2011 3:41:05 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (Be good, Santa is coming)
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To: Da Coyote

I was just trying, in my mind, to compare Kent State with the OWS crowd.

I cannot imagine a situation where a good baton would not send the 99% crying home to their mommies and their lawyers.

Even the quality of our hippies has gone into the trash these days.


26 posted on 12/08/2011 3:41:59 PM PST by Vermont Lt (I just don't like anything about the President. And I don't think he's a nice guy.)
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To: oneamericanvoice

Just looked it up. Seems there was someone there with a pistol. http://www.cleveland.com/science/index.ssf/2010/10/analysis_of_kent_state_audio_t.html


27 posted on 12/08/2011 3:42:16 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: Nervous Tick

The inner city screws lose on both accounts.


28 posted on 12/08/2011 3:45:49 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: Da Coyote
As for Kent State, those folks should not have been there...and they obviously were not well briefed.

So are you saying the National Guard was wrong for firing?

29 posted on 12/08/2011 3:48:06 PM PST by SoJoCo
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To: George Varnum

This sort of question always came up from time-to-time over the years in several different units I was in, usually preceeded by many adult beverages.

General consensus was that nothing was bad enough to get us to the point of shooting American citizens but such an event would cause working the way up the chain of command to find from where such an order originated.


30 posted on 12/08/2011 3:51:45 PM PST by VeniVidiVici ("Si, se gimme!")
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To: MCF
...bad judgment, poor tactical deployment, and poor training, What is the source of your information my friend? I'm sure you are aware that the "battlefield" is a fluid situation. How one reacts is far different from in the real. Secondly, claims are that they were fired on. Too bad you weren't in command that day.
31 posted on 12/08/2011 3:52:13 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: SkyDancer
Okay, so what happened at Kent State?

Reserve units in that era were a comedy. If it were regular Army, it wouldn't have happened.

In the 1960's, regular Army units were practicing riot control. We drilled with several types of formations with fixed bayonets. We were told there were seven levels of escalating use of force. Shooting bullets was the last. If we were sent into the streets, I doubt they would have issue more than four rounds apiece.

This was the era of racial strife and commie war protests. No one ever polled if we would have fired upon Americans. I'm guessing it would have went down the same way as the Army led by Douglas MacArthur broke up the Veterans "Bonus Army" protest in Washington DC. The regular Army is going to obey orders. Count on it.

Bush the First ordered Army and Marines into Los Angeles during the 1992 Rodney King riots. Once the troops arrived the riots stopped. Count on it.

Keep in mind these two uses of US military were not against citizens standing up for basic freedoms. In both cases, the military was used against mobs. Citizens organized to defend basic constitutional freedoms presents a different moral dilemma for our soldiers. What they will choose is a guessing game. What the military leaders would choose too is a guessing game.

32 posted on 12/08/2011 3:52:42 PM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The meek shall not inherit the Earth)
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To: George Varnum

There are no Marines in the National Guard. Only Army and Airforce.


33 posted on 12/08/2011 3:55:47 PM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: oneamericanvoice
If my memory serves, the Guardsmen thought they were being fired on

But they weren't. They fired into the crowd indiscriminately.

The National Guard requires its members take an oath saying that they will defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The Constitution gives Congress the power to call up the militia to execute the laws of the union and to suppress rebellion. If the National Guardsman isn't willing to do their duty as soldiers under the Constitution then maybe they shouldn't be National Guardsmen?

34 posted on 12/08/2011 3:57:31 PM PST by SoJoCo
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To: SkyDancer

Oh,the Kent State where National Guard troops were fired at first.
There were/are reports that college activists and radical fired at the guard and the guardsmen fired back in response.
If you ask me, kent State only proved that the NG needed to spend more time at the range.


35 posted on 12/08/2011 4:02:12 PM PST by Yorlik803 (better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)
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To: wintertime

How about you save your shame for a confirmation of the story. Same with your disgust. We have the greatest and best people in the military, and you have vilified them. The shame is on you.

As for taking the Lord’s name in vain. It means not carrying the Lord’s name in a false manner. People swear the oath and do their best to keep it, just as you try to uphold all the commandments. Have you kept every one? Probably not. God appreciates that you tried, and he knows that none of us are perfect.


36 posted on 12/08/2011 4:02:34 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: Yorlik803

Just looked it up. Seems there was someone there with a pistol. http://www.cleveland.com/science/index.ssf/2010/10/analysis_of_kent_state_audio_t.html


37 posted on 12/08/2011 4:04:05 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: George Varnum
“So I'm an alarmist and conspiracy theorist” among other character defects. lol
38 posted on 12/08/2011 4:09:18 PM PST by verity (The Obama Administration is a Criminal Enterprise.)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

Thank you for your service, and for your wise, calm words in this insanity over a unsubstaniatity story.

Isn’t it intersting to consider how so many who claim to support the military can be railing against them here?

Thanks again, from a fellow Army vet.


39 posted on 12/08/2011 4:13:39 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: SkyDancer

See my home page.


40 posted on 12/08/2011 4:16:20 PM PST by Ricebug
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To: Nervous Tick
Good question. My opinion: there will *always* be the possibility of isolated events, but I don’t think our current voluntary military has the stomach for widespread military violence against its own.

Over the course of years, that could change I suppose.

It could change more quickly than you think, if the USG is threatened by a rebellion. I know this is going to sound a little odd coming from me, but we're too young to know what the USG is capable of. It would take a member of the Greatest Generation, who lived through World War 2 and its propaganda, to tell us.

Were there a rebellion, the rebels would be labelled "the New Confederacy" faster than you can sing "Hang Jeff Davis On A Sour Apple Tree." Which would be sung quite a lot by the troops in such an eventuality. And, rubbed in through as many ways as drill sergeants can think of.

If the USG wanted to set an example, all they'd have to do is Danny Deever a few rebel aid'ers in faux-Confederate uniforms, vidcam it, and show the clip to all the troops. With the official propganda thrown in.

As I said, we have no idea what the USG is capable of in the propaganda department. Especially when the Left is full-throatedly behind the war effort, as they were in WWII and would be if a bunch of 'right wing traitors' rebelled.

One handgun could do nothing against such an onslaught.

The trouble with rebelling against a domestic government, as opposed to a foreign power, is the the latter can save face somewhat by recalling the troops back to home. The former can't.

41 posted on 12/08/2011 4:18:57 PM PST by danielmryan
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To: SoJoCo

No true. Go down the thread. There were others who posted about them being fired on. The never fired indescriminatly. That is a shame you think that. Don’t ever say you support the military.

I know what the Guard’s mission and Oath is because I was in after being on active duty.


42 posted on 12/08/2011 4:19:37 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: George Varnum

I call BS on this story.

Whatever your politics, you break ranks in a battalion formation and lay your weapon on the ground, you are going to be doing rifle PT until the Sarn Maj, First Shirt, and ALL the Plat Daddies get tired.

And there is no way everyone thought this was was a good idea.


43 posted on 12/08/2011 4:20:06 PM PST by Molon Labbie (Occupiers- The world is watching....and alternatively laughing and vomiting)
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To: SkyDancer

Thanks for the link and taking the time to look it up. The Guard wouldn’t just fire on people. It’s surprising that some on this great site think they would.


44 posted on 12/08/2011 4:23:11 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: George Varnum

My wife’s brother, who lives in Germany, read in some newspaper from one of those eastern European countries that this story was confirmed by a Russian tree trimmer who overheard the house owner on a phone call to his cousin’s neighbor in Latvia who swears she knows someone who was in touch with a friend in California who witnessed the whole thing. It must be true.


45 posted on 12/08/2011 4:32:38 PM PST by jstaff
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To: Ricebug

*Whew* Lot’s to read there.


46 posted on 12/08/2011 4:41:16 PM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: oneamericanvoice

Well said


47 posted on 12/08/2011 4:42:06 PM PST by Chuckster (The longer I live the less I care about what you think.)
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To: verity

Yeah; I hear ya; If I listed any more of my character defects people might start falling asleep. There is hardly ever a lack of others enthusiastically willing to fill in the blanks though, so I rarely have to.

I hope everyone noticed in my commentary that this was reported as “Unconfirmed” and I’m passing it along as such hoping that someone with some personal knowledge of this particular unit (if it even exists) might be able to offer some insight.

If it is indeed “BS” as well it might be, I would hope that someone could credibly confirm it as such so we could move on.

A lot has been happening the past few days, not the least of which was the Senate passing the very controversial Senate Bill 1867 :

http://www.naturalnews.com/034291_SB_1867_war_on_terror.html

Which you have to admit might tend to make some of us a little sensitive to this sort of thing.

Apparently there is some precedent for similar situations, such as (from the Oath Keeper’s site):

“If accurate, this is reminiscent of the stand-down during Katrina by SSGT Joshua May’s Utah National Guard Unit, where the whole unit let their commander know, in a peremptory refusal, that they would not participate in any gun confiscation”.

See the video of his testimony at their site.

Regardless of the authenticity of this report (and the jury seems to be still very much out) our currently ruling regime, IMHO, bears watching... closely.


48 posted on 12/08/2011 4:43:29 PM PST by George Varnum (Liberty, like our Forefather's Flintlock Musket, must be kept clean, oiled, and READY!)
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To: jstaff

Re: “My wife’s brother, who lives in Germany,...”

Well, that corks it then! Thanks ever so much!

I can’t help but wonder if this has made the SNOPES “Urban Myth” status yet?


49 posted on 12/08/2011 4:58:39 PM PST by George Varnum (Liberty, like our Forefather's Flintlock Musket, must be kept clean, oiled, and READY!)
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To: Chuckster

Thank you!

Aren’t you surprised at the number of people here who railing against the military, yet claim to be pro-military? No waiting til they have all the facts. It’s just jump on the “must be true” bandwagon.


50 posted on 12/08/2011 5:01:27 PM PST by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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