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The Hundred Years' German War
Townhall.com ^ | December 15, 2011 | Victor Davis Hansen

Posted on 12/15/2011 2:21:36 AM PST by Kaslin

The rise of a German Europe began in 1914, failed twice, and has now ended in the victory of German power almost a century later. The Europe that Kaiser Wilhelm lost in 1918, and that Adolf Hitler destroyed in 1945, has at last been won by German Chancellor Angela Merkel without firing a shot.

Or so it seems from European newspapers, which now refer bitterly to a "Fourth Reich" and arrogant new Nazi "Gauleiters" who dictate terms to their European subordinates. Popular cartoons depict Germans with stiff-arm salutes and swastikas, establishing new rules of behavior for supposedly inferior peoples.

Millions of terrified Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, Portuguese and other Europeans are pouring their savings into German banks at the rate of $15 billion a month. A thumbs-up or thumbs-down from the euro-rich Merkel now determines whether European countries will limp ahead with new German-backed loans or default and see their standard of living regress to that of a half-century ago.

A worried neighbor, France, in schizophrenic fashion, as so often in the past, alternately lashes out at Britain for abandoning it and fawns on Germany to appease it. The worries in 1989 of British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and French President François Mitterrand over German unification -- that neither a new European Union nor an old NATO could quite rein in German power -- proved true.

How did the grand dream of a "new Europe" end just 20 years later in a German protectorate -- especially given the not-so-subtle aim of the European Union to diffuse German ambitions through a continent-wide super-state?

Not by arms. Britain fights in wars all over the globe, from Libya to Iraq. France has the bomb. But Germany mostly stays within its borders -- without a nuke, a single aircraft carrier or a military base abroad.

Not by handouts. Germany poured almost $2 trillion of its own money into rebuilding an East Germany ruined by communism -- without help from others. To drive through southern Europe is to see new freeways, bridges, rail lines, stadiums and airports financed by German banks or subsidized by the German government.

Not by population size. Somehow, 120 million Greeks, Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese are begging some 80 million Germans to bail them out.

And not because of good fortune. Just 65 years ago, Berlin was flattened, Hamburg incinerated and Munich a shell -- in ways even Athens, Madrid, Lisbon and Rome were not.

In truth, German character -- so admired and feared in some 500 years of European literature and history -- led to the present Germanization of Europe. These days we recoil at terms like "national character" that seem tainted by the nightmares of the past. But no other politically correct exegesis offers better reasons why a booming Detroit of 1945 today looks like it was bombed, and a bombed-out Berlin of 1945 now is booming.

Germans on average worked harder and smarter than their European neighbors -- investing rather than consuming, saving rather than spending, and going to bed when others to the south were going to dinner. Recipients of their largesse bitterly complain that German banks lent them money to buy German products in a sort of 21st-century commercial serfdom. True enough, but that still begs the question why Berlin, and not Rome or Madrid, was able to pull off such lucrative mercantilism.

Where does all this lead? Right now to some great unknowns that terrify most of Europe. Will German industriousness and talent eventually translate into military dominance and cultural chauvinism -- as it has in the past? How, exactly, can an unraveling EU, or NATO, now "led from behind" by a disengaged United States, persuade Germany not to translate its overwhelming economic clout into political and military advantage?

Can poor European adolescents really obey their rich German parents? Berlin in essence has now scolded southern Europeans that if they still expect sophisticated medical care, high-tech appurtenances and plentiful consumer goods -- the adornments of a rich American and northern Europe lifestyle -- then they have to start behaving in the manner of Germans, who produce such things and subsidize them for others.

In other words, an Athenian may still have his ultra-modern airport and subway, a Spaniard may still get a hip replacement, or a Roman may still enjoy his new Mercedes. But not if they still insist on daily siestas, dinner at 9 p.m., retirement in their early 50s, cheating on taxes, and a de facto 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. workday.

Behind all the EU's 11th-hour gobbledygook, Germany's new European order is clear: If you wish to live like a German, then you must work and save like a German. Take it or leave it.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Germany
KEYWORDS: vdh
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1 posted on 12/15/2011 2:21:39 AM PST by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin
German American
German Americans are citizens of the United States of German ancestry and comprise about 51 million people, or 17% of the U.S. population, the country's largest self-reported ancestral group.

German Americans have been influential in almost every field in American society, including science, architecture, industry, sports, entertainment, theology, government, and the military. German American generals Baron von Steuben, John Pershing, Dwight Eisenhower, and Norman Schwarzkopf commanded the United States Army in the American Revolutionary War, World War I, World War II, and the Persian Gulf War, respectively. Many German Americans have played a prominent role in industry and business, including John D. Rockefeller, William Boeing, Walter Chrysler, George Westinghouse, and Donald Trump. Some, such as Brooklyn Bridge engineer John A. Roebling and architect Walter Gropius, left behind visible landmarks. Others, including Albert Einstein and Wernher von Braun, set intellectual landmarks. Still others, such as Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jack Nicklaus, Doris Day, and Leonardo DiCaprio, became prominent athletes or actors.[7]

German Americans established the first kindergartens in the United States,[8] introduced the Christmas tree tradition,[9][10] and originated popular American foods such as hot dogs and hamburgers.

2 posted on 12/15/2011 2:32:29 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Perry Christmas & Happy Newt Year!)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

... For the record I am not German. I am first generation American, born in NYC. My father was Irish and my mother was Dutch. But I am married to a German and my daughter is German. :)


3 posted on 12/15/2011 2:35:27 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Perry Christmas & Happy Newt Year!)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Bump


4 posted on 12/15/2011 2:36:59 AM PST by Kaslin (Acronym for OBAMA: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

My father’s mother was from London. I need to put that in there! (in case anyone cared)


5 posted on 12/15/2011 2:38:28 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Perry Christmas & Happy Newt Year!)
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To: Kaslin

Germany runs a large trade surplus every year. Germany became rich via exporting. They made what the rest of EU Europe wanted to buy. Chemicals and well made manufactured goods. Germans have hi-IQ and have their shyte together.

This is how they got to where they are. By being better at producing upscale tech items and selling to their neighbors. Ethnic Germans (part and full) are responsible for a lot of our Midwest manufacturing. Just last week Wisconsin was called the state with the highest percentage of workers in manufacturing. Wisconsin is heavily ethnic German


6 posted on 12/15/2011 2:38:40 AM PST by dennisw (A nation of sheep breeds a government of Democrat wolves!)
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To: Kaslin

If the deadbeats in Europe don’t like the terms, then they don’t have to take the money.


7 posted on 12/15/2011 2:38:50 AM PST by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: Kaslin

Ping.


8 posted on 12/15/2011 2:38:50 AM PST by Carbonsteel
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To: Carbonsteel; All

I am a naturalized citizen from Germany


9 posted on 12/15/2011 2:47:16 AM PST by Kaslin (Acronym for OBAMA: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: dennisw

Rhinelander, WI comes to mind


10 posted on 12/15/2011 2:49:41 AM PST by Kaslin (Acronym for OBAMA: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

So what? Those are the common people and don’t have very much to do, if anything at all, with the elite. And if they came here, their bloodlines may prove to have been very different from other German folk besides.


11 posted on 12/15/2011 2:53:16 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: dennisw

No, that’s not it. Forgot that it was eight years ago that they were the “sick man of Europe”? Not even their large manufacturing base was helping them. It was the euro, and the shenanigans involved in setting that up. They control its central bank.


12 posted on 12/15/2011 2:54:44 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Kaslin

Good article, I wonder what the great thinkers on campus will say about this.


13 posted on 12/15/2011 2:56:06 AM PST by exPBRrat
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To: NavVet
Why are you defending the social market economy, which is different from the free market? That's an attack on the USA, you know.

As for the "terms", every country that got a bailout "loan" foisted on them initially resisted—then the governments fell and were replaced. Don't see the pattern?
14 posted on 12/15/2011 2:56:36 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Kaslin
In truth, German character -- so admired and feared in some 500 years of European literature and history -- led to the present Germanization of Europe. These days we recoil at terms like "national character" that seem tainted by the nightmares of the past. But no other politically correct exegesis offers better reasons why a booming Detroit of 1945 today looks like it was bombed, and a bombed-out Berlin of 1945 now is booming.

Victor David had better have a care lest he like Icarus, with whom Hanson as a classical scholar is well acquainted, flies too close to the truth and gets burned.


15 posted on 12/15/2011 3:02:29 AM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Olog-hai

I hope you enjoy your next hamburger. :)


16 posted on 12/15/2011 3:02:35 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Perry Christmas & Happy Newt Year!)
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To: Olog-hai
It was the euro, and the shenanigans involved in setting that up. They control its central bank.

Germany has never been the "sick man of Europe". That honor fell to Britain in the sixties and seventies till Thatcher came along. Germany has been the economic power in the EU since it rebuilt after the War.

It was Germany's economic success that frightened the French into creating the Euro in the first place.

France, in schizophrenic fashion, as so often in the past, alternately lashes out at Britain for abandoning it and fawns on Germany to appease it.

Whatever their sins in the past, since 1945, the Germans have kept their heads down and worked their butts off. And, in typical human fashion, they are now criticized and envied for it.

17 posted on 12/15/2011 3:24:34 AM PST by BfloGuy (The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.)
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To: Kaslin

I love reading VDH and respect him highly. That being said, he failed in the first sentence of this article. Yikes!

The German century started in either 1865 or 1870-71, depending on your point of view.

The Germany century reached it’s first pinnacle in 1912-14,...
but anyways, not a bad article.


18 posted on 12/15/2011 3:31:31 AM PST by JerseyHighlander
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To: Kaslin

If you wish to live like a German, then you must work and save like a German...

Live like a German? You call that life? I want to live like an Italian and work and save like one. If you look at the statistics (export, home ownership, gold reserves, past honoring of debts, and others) you might be surprised. Sorry if we work to live and don’t live to work. In any case Italian credit institutions barely participated in the 700,000 billion dollar loan boondoggle that poisoned the market. No housing bubble here. That’s a New York, London, Paris, Frankfurt creation. Actually, playboy Berlusconi had improved the debt situation somewhat vis-a-vis past years (which oddly was never tragic). And now it seems that it all hinges on Italy... And to solve the problem we must live like Germans. How about those financial geniuses copying the caution of the Italian banking system?


19 posted on 12/15/2011 4:11:00 AM PST by Youaskedforit
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To: Kaslin
Having lived in a small German village for four years, I know about the German work effort. I'll never forget, soon after moving into my house, waking up early (for me) on a Saturday, drinking coffee at 7:00 am and being scolded by my neighbors for not being outside sweeping the sidewalks!

I did buy a Weedeater blower-vac from the base exchange and subsequently went around vacuuming up all their little piles of dirt and leaves for which they were very amused.

Still, I have seen my share of German welfare cheats (and their welfare is much more generous than ours) and Swartz-Arbeiteren (black workers) who take cash money on the side....

That was a kind of weird display of the German work effort mixed with laziness... Guys who didn't have a real job, collecting unemployment/welfare benefits, busting their chops every day painting houses, hanging wallpaper, setting tile, fixing cars, etc., on the sly, so the Federal republic wouldn't/couldn't tax them.

20 posted on 12/15/2011 4:13:50 AM PST by Alas Babylon!
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To: Alas Babylon!

That sort of welfare cheat is almost admirable...


21 posted on 12/15/2011 4:29:36 AM PST by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Kaslin

IIRC, there was a conservative thinker that thought that the biggest catastrophe for Western Civilization was that the Germans lost WWI.
I wish I could find the article again to go over his reasoning, which was actually somewhat persuasive.
But I guess its a good thing that Germany finding a dominant position again.


22 posted on 12/15/2011 4:39:13 AM PST by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Lawrence Welk, and the next time you watch one of his reruns, ask yourself how he got that accent, since he was born in North Dakota, USA.


23 posted on 12/15/2011 4:39:24 AM PST by Former Proud Canadian (Obamanomics-We don't need your stinking tar sands oil, or the jobs that go with it.)
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To: Kaslin

It’s a short article so obviously it cannot go into too much depth, but it does make Germany sound like one homogeneous entity, with everyone working to achieve the same goal (European domination in the minds of some). This, of course, is anything but true.

Many forces (leftist politicians, the media, “intellectuals”, unions et al.) are working hard to destroy Germany, or rather the values and culture Hanson mentions, from within. Most notably by trying to establish a “multicultural” society and a new socialistic state (i.e., even more than it already is). Dissent with this course will get you smeared as a nationalist or Nazi - the usual leftist tactics. On the upside, more and more people are getting fed up with this crap and voicing their concerns.

Germany wanting to rule Europe? Only from an outside perspective.


24 posted on 12/15/2011 5:08:06 AM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: Former Proud Canadian
"Lawrence Welk, and the next time you watch one of his reruns, ask yourself how he got that accent, since he was born in North Dakota, USA."

I always thought he had a close-pin loose in his shorts. ;-)

25 posted on 12/15/2011 5:18:12 AM PST by almost done by half
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To: Kaslin

VDH has a knack for cutting through the BS.


26 posted on 12/15/2011 5:25:35 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: nathanbedford

VDH threads the PC lines very carefully, leaving plenty of room for us to read between them.


27 posted on 12/15/2011 5:28:15 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Kaslin

-——supposedly inferior peoples-——

Why include supposedly? It is obvious that the people in question are inferior. If they were equal, the problem would not exist.

The same is true here. There is a great mass of inferiors that are screwing up the works. Unlike Europe, they are not concentrated in the south. The American inferiors are concentrated in cities in which they have gained political control. The inferiority is telling however, the American cities are failing.


28 posted on 12/15/2011 5:34:54 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 ..... Crucifixion is coming)
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To: Kaslin

I will also add that a lot of the Mid West farmers have German names even if they are only part German. Look at John Boehner and Steny Hoyer. Both are MidWest USA German last names.


29 posted on 12/15/2011 6:02:56 AM PST by dennisw (A nation of sheep breeds a government of Democrat wolves!)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

good you posted that or you’d get a few bumps saying that you’re a feelty Jerry peeeg etc. etc.


30 posted on 12/15/2011 6:26:45 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Little Ray

it was the best situation possible for the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Belgians.


31 posted on 12/15/2011 6:45:23 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Olog-hai

I’m not defending anyting. I’m just saying that if you don’t like the terms, then don’t take the money. The one that pays the piper calls the tune. And the Greek government only fell after bailout number 3 or 4. The Italian government fell before it received any kind of bailout, and the Irish government hasn’t fell. Bailing out iresponsible governments in southern Europe isn’t very popular with the people in Germany and it is costing Merkel at the polls. I don’t think this is some grand German plot and Merkel would probably rather the Greeks would pay their own bills. However, any country that’s going to bail out another has a right to attach whatever strings to the money they wish. Again, if they don’t like the terms of the bailout, don’t take the bailout. If you know the terms, and you still accept the money, the STFU.


32 posted on 12/15/2011 7:14:17 AM PST by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: NavVet

socialism is inheritly “irresponsible government”

all this is about self validating their socialist models and the bizzre belief they can tax themselves into prosperity.

The “piigs” want food to eat.
The French and Germans want to be the new aristocrats.
all of them want the USA to pay for it.

Obama and the democrats only want to know how high they need to jump.


33 posted on 12/15/2011 7:39:09 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: NavVet

forgot to add: if the Greeks don’t take the loan and then simply default, the German banks are royally screwed since they held much of the Greek sovereign debt.

Why did they buy so much debt?

This is like giving farmers 0% interest loans and then lobbying to/and cutting off farm subsidies to guarantee the farmers default.


34 posted on 12/15/2011 8:12:50 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Former Proud Canadian

Welk was born in the German-speaking community of Strasburg, North Dakota. He started learning English when he went to school. His family emigrated from Odessa in Ukraine.


35 posted on 12/15/2011 8:19:41 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: longtermmemmory

First of all, my one and only point was that if you accept a multi-billion dollar bail out, you have to accept the terms. If you borrow money from a bank, your Uncle Fred, or Germany you take the money on the terms it is offered.

But your analogy is messed up, Germany is lobbying the Greeks to stop spending like drunken soldiers and is offering them more subsidies if they do.


36 posted on 12/15/2011 9:22:23 AM PST by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: longtermmemmory

First of all, my one and only point was that if you accept a multi-billion dollar bail out, you have to accept the terms. If you borrow money from a bank, your Uncle Fred, or Germany you take the money on the terms it is offered.

But your analogy is messed up, Germany is lobbying the Greeks to stop spending like drunken soldiers and is offering them more subsidies if they do.


37 posted on 12/15/2011 9:39:21 AM PST by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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To: Cronos
The Law of the Garbage Truck
38 posted on 12/15/2011 11:03:32 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Perry Christmas & Happy Newt Year!)
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To: Kaslin

bookmark


39 posted on 12/15/2011 12:18:09 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
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To: JerseyHighlander
The German century started in either 1865 or 1870-71, ...

Was thinking that myself.

40 posted on 12/15/2011 1:22:17 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: NavVet
You mean those terms are OK with you? The strengthening of an anti-US social market economy works for you . . . ? I don't understand that viewpoint. Usury by blackmail is also immoral.

Greece now has an appointed government, appointed from outside the state; it's not relevant whether or not Papandreou caved to economic pressure to take loans before that, because he's now gone. Why should Greece have had all those bailout loans foisted on them anyway and their government still fall? Never mind, why should any government outside Greece demand that it sell its islands and other public assets?
41 posted on 12/15/2011 1:56:59 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: BfloGuy
All wrong. Germany was dubbed the "sick man of Europe" as recently as '03. The "worked their butts off" defense is as hollow as the social market economy you are defending—especially in the face of their highly-unionized, highly-protectionist manufacturing sector, and it only highlights the excessive state control that no American should ever praise (at least no non-liberal American).
42 posted on 12/15/2011 2:00:31 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Kaslin
Missing in all this Teutonaphile bombast is some simple economics.

When the Krauts took back their commie brothers, everyone here thought it would be the kiss of death. No one seemed to be able to read the facts. East Germany was an economic powerhouse, even if it was living off the "markets" in the rest of the COMBLOC. It was populated by real Germans, after all, had a for-real infrastructure, and its people were starving for high-quality consumer goods. Such a deal!

As a wise sage wrote on this site, this "Re-Union" will make the Germans the most powerful country in Europe. On a global scale, paying the bill for the Re-unification was the wisest investment any country had made since the fall of the Roman Empire.

Think long-term. Cheapest car you can buy? Mercedes at least until they started looking like Jap clones, minus the reliable electronics. And also remember, that while Germany certainly has more than its share of "Green," Marxist ass-hats, they would never elect someone like the Mombasa MF. The German Left and the German Right both consider this guy a fool and will take shameless advantage of his international stupidity where and when they can.

43 posted on 12/15/2011 2:01:57 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (So, you're telling me Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts can't figure out this eligibility stuff?)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
You mean Salisbury steak?
44 posted on 12/15/2011 2:04:25 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
Now we know where your anti-German hysterics come from.

And it sure isn't apple pie.

45 posted on 12/15/2011 2:47:59 PM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Perry Christmas & Happy Newt Year!)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
I don't have any "anti-German hysterics". Germany's elite have anti-anything-that-isn't-the-social-market-economy hysterics, though—which is indeed anti-free-market hysterics, to the point that they called the free market the "Anglo-Saxon capitalist model" (it's they that don't see any difference between the UK and its former colonies, according to that myopic view). Bad enough that they're foisting bailout loans that their citizens don't want to pay for and the countries that are forced to take them don't want to receive.

Why is it that you aren't delineating the difference between German citizenry and German elite?
46 posted on 12/15/2011 3:03:43 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
Your posts speak for themselves, not just this thread but many.

You want me to talk about so-called "German elite" while you sit in a country as the subject of Her Majesty The Queen?

LOL that's a good one!

Now excuse me, but I sign on to FR to build conservative ideas with fellow Americans. NOT to be the target of anti-German spittle from the living cartoon caricature of English hatred towards Germany and who sports a Troll name.

I Mean, Really!

47 posted on 12/15/2011 3:37:40 PM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Perry Christmas & Happy Newt Year!)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

You want me to talk about so-called "German elite" while you sit in a country as the subject of Her Majesty The Queen?
I'm not in Britain. I'm in the USA. (Maybe being in Berlin has made the two look the same to you? Those that decry the "Anglo-Saxon capitalist model" don't see a difference, certainly.)

And frankly, the elites in Germany (among others) want a comeback of their monarchy.

I sign on to FR to build conservative ideas with fellow Americans
Supporting the social market economy is not a conservative idea. Nor is anti-monarchism except for the USA in particular (whose Founding Fathers regarded Jesus Christ as the country's only rightful monarch)—the USA was not set up to depose monarchies around the world, as was the case with the French Revolution and its bastard child the Russian Revolution, and all other such leftist revolutions. No, not very conservative to go after monarchs, especially constitutional monarchs whose legislatures are of a republican nature.

Your own hatred of English people indicates that you may have been in Berlin too long. Not to mention that Berlin is quite the liberal city.
48 posted on 12/15/2011 3:47:18 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Berlin_Freeper
"Leonardo DiCaprio" just sounds German, doesn't it? Just looked up his Wikipedia biography and he is half-Italian, half-German on his father's side and mostly German (with a little Russian) on his mother's side.

Herbert Hoover's surname was originally Huber, but his family was Swiss-German rather than German-from-Germany German.

Other notable German Americans were John Peter Altgeld, Governor of Illinois, Carl Schurz, Franz Sigel, and William Oldfather (Altvater), a noted classicist.

49 posted on 12/15/2011 4:39:56 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: Olog-hai

Again, my only point was that “You take the money you take the terms”. NOBODY forced Greece to give bloated pensions and benefits to its citizens for 40 years, while expecting little in return. Neither Germany or any other country ran Greece’s economy into the ground, the Greek Government did that. And far from forcing Usry type loans on the Greek Government, I believe the terms Greek has received from the EU not just Germany has been much more favorable than any individual. Just to be clear, I don’t think Germany or any other country should give Greece a dime, or loan Greece a dime. Just as I think no other American State should have to bail our California or Michigan for decades of socialist policies that have run those states into the ground.

As for strenthening of an anti-US Social Market Economy, what the ______ are you talking about. I certainly don’t wish any country or region’s economy to fail, because when that happens, it tends to suck the U.S. down as well.

But for what I hope is the last time, my only point was that when you request a loan, whether it be from your credit card, credit union, or a soverign country. They put out the terms and conditions. If those terms are unacceptable, don’t take the money. If you do take the money, then nobody wants to hear your whining about the terms you freely agreed to.

And nobody demanded the Greek government sell it’s possessions. However, anybody giving Greece money that will likely never be reapaid, has every right to SUGGEST not DEMAND that the government sell some of its own assets to raise money first.


50 posted on 12/15/2011 8:26:28 PM PST by NavVet ("You Lie!")
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