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Cold fusion: The impact of Rossi's E-cat to the world
International Business Times ^ | 12/15/11 | ranina sanglap |

Posted on 12/16/2011 6:08:38 AM PST by Titus-Maximus

The prospect of an energy source that is environmentally clean and free has also been considered a Utopian ideal, something that won't happen in real life. Andrea Rossi's Energy Catalyzer or E-Cat for short is now promising to bring about that Utopia as the dream of cheap energy could suddenly become real.

The E-Cat is a cold fusion device that works fuses hydrogen atoms with nickel to transform it into copper. The resulting fusion reaction creates heat that will drive a turbine. The turbine would then generate electricity. Andrea Rossi and physicist Sergio Focardi have demonstrated the device last October and the E-Cat actually produced an average of 470 kilowatts for more than five hours.

Despite the promising results there are still many questions left unanswered about the E-Cat. For one thing Rossi is tight-lipped about the secret catalyst that's supposed to transform nickel into copper. Scientists are still unconvinced about the device and only repeated demonstrations can prove that it will work for the long term. The process has to be verified and tested exhaustively. Still if the device actually works, there could be a technological revolution that will transform the world.

Ultra cheap energy would be a boon to the flagging world economy. Manufacturers will be able to provide cheaper goods. Households will have a cheaper utility bill which means extra cash to buy products on the market. Energy intensive industries will become more financially feasible.

Transportation will also be affected. With cheaper electricity, electric cars will be a better alternative than combustion engine cars. If the E-Cat works it can be used as a steam engine to propel trucks, trains and even planes. The trucking and shipping industry will be transformed. Shipping prices will go down.

(Excerpt) Read more at au.ibtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: coldfusion; lenr
Can someone please stop this scam!
1 posted on 12/16/2011 6:08:42 AM PST by Titus-Maximus
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To: Titus-Maximus

Which scam is that? Yours?


2 posted on 12/16/2011 6:11:05 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: Titus-Maximus
"changes nickel to copper."

Why stop there? Why not turn iron into gold?

3 posted on 12/16/2011 6:12:08 AM PST by pabianice (")
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To: Titus-Maximus

I hear it can turn rich suckers into poor saps.


4 posted on 12/16/2011 6:15:07 AM PST by reagan_fanatic (A communist is just a liberal in a hurry)
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To: pabianice

Powder.patch..ball FIRE!

Because if you had been paying attention instead of sneering there are several theoretical models that allow for the reaction to copper.

There are several papers posted that describe the process, search is your friend.

Sarcasm you are not so good at...


5 posted on 12/16/2011 6:17:46 AM PST by BallandPowder
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To: Titus-Maximus

I mean, are you worried that someone will trick you into buying an E-Cat against your will?


6 posted on 12/16/2011 6:24:55 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: BallandPowder

Gosh this is WONDERFUL~!!

Let me see it work.

What? He won’t? um... why?


7 posted on 12/16/2011 6:26:23 AM PST by Mr. K (Physically unable to profreed <--- oops, see?)
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To: John Valentine

This process, if it is real, would seem to fly in the face of practically all thermodynamics and the principle of conservation of energy. What is to keep the process from reversing, and in doing so, ABSORB a great deal of energy?

Getting the nuclei of four Hydrogen atoms (protons) to somehow fuse with the nucleus of ANY other element runs into a serious problem, right away. The existing nucleus will RESIST the approach of any additional protons, because of being a like charge, much like a magnet. Only the force of HUGE gravitational pressure will force the nuclei of hydrogen atoms to fuse, and that is what is at the heart of fusion. Which is what ignites the fire within a very large closely packed quantity of hydrogen, is this very great gravitational pressure.

This will not occur at anywhere near room temperature, or even the temperature of the sun’s surface. It takes the “millions and millions” of degrees of temperature found at the core of a star, plus the pressure.

Nicht moeglich.


8 posted on 12/16/2011 6:27:21 AM PST by alloysteel (Are Democrats truly "better angels"? They are lousy stewards for America.)
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To: Titus-Maximus

I have a working Bunny F-REP: a food replicator! For real.

I even have a blog that says it’s for real!

I could - all at once - file 20 patents around the world and put a video on YouTube that conclusively shows how my food replicator works but instead, I’m going to pretend that I don’t have a way to protect my invention from everyone on the planet.

So I’m going to need 20 or 30 million dollars to continue to develop it and attract “investors” with closed, unverifiable experiments.

That’ll show everyone. I’ll just stay poor while I dick around and pretend I’ve solved the world’s food supply problems.


9 posted on 12/16/2011 6:29:23 AM PST by Psycho_Bunny ("Fair share" are the last two words I hear before I stop taking someone seriously.)
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To: Titus-Maximus

I’d love to believe this, but I’ve heard about this for going on two years now, and I would have expected by now, E-cats everywhere.


10 posted on 12/16/2011 6:29:36 AM PST by Lazamataz (That's all.)
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To: reagan_fanatic

Perfect. This I am going to steal....


11 posted on 12/16/2011 6:38:39 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Titus-Maximus
The E-Cat is a cold fusion device that works fuses hydrogen atoms with nickel to transform it into copper.

Uh, yeah. What kind of independent test results do you have to verify that?

12 posted on 12/16/2011 6:44:51 AM PST by Burkean Buckleyite
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To: BallandPowder
It would certainly be nice if this were true.

OTOH, if it were true, it would be easy to do a demo that would convince everyone without a doubt.

Pipe E-Cat steam into a turbine, which spins an alternator. Alternator lights up a big array of incandescent light bulbs that form letters that spell out "E-Cat Works."

Wouldn't even be necessary to use the whole 450 kW thermal that they claim. A 20 kW tubine not much bigger than a centrifugal pump for a pool filter would do the trick. I bet some turbomachinery company over in Europe would loan them the hardware for a demo. They'd need a condenser and heat sink for continuous operation, of course.

As I say, this wouldn't be too hard. I mean, it's not like steam-to-electricity technology is exotic.

Such a demonstration would silence the skeptics in one shot. Orders would pour in to Rossi's company. He'd become super-rich overnight, and the mideast oil sheikhs would feel the Earth move beneath their feet.

Why not do it?

13 posted on 12/16/2011 6:51:24 AM PST by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
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To: pabianice
changes nickel to copper

Sounds like the kind of change our President has brought us.

14 posted on 12/16/2011 6:59:19 AM PST by frithguild (Restricting access to capital - Liberalism: The sharpest tool of big business.)
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To: Titus-Maximus

Reasons to doubt Rossi

And, the biggest reason to doubt Rossi:

15 posted on 12/16/2011 7:01:49 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: BallandPowder
It always amazes me that the most ardent advocates of these retarded scams are those who have virtually no background in science, understand nothing of thermodynamics, and probably have a close encounter in their past.

Beep! Beep! Beep!

It's true, I saw it on the internet!!!

I saw a movie about blue-skinned giants who live on a bio-luminescent nature's paradise with flying dragons. Think that's real too? Quick buy your "unobtanium stocks" before they're all gone. LOL!!!
16 posted on 12/16/2011 7:10:57 AM PST by Sudetenland (Anybody but Obama!!!!)
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To: Psycho_Bunny
" I have a working Bunny F-REP: a food replicator! For real. "

You too?

Mine is better. Send me a million dollars and I will set up a demo for you

17 posted on 12/16/2011 7:11:50 AM PST by Mr. K (Physically unable to profreed <--- oops, see?)
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To: frithguild

hee hee hee~ good one~!


18 posted on 12/16/2011 7:14:06 AM PST by Mr. K (Physically unable to profreed <--- oops, see?)
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To: John Valentine

Yeah - I’m asking for money.

Get real.


19 posted on 12/16/2011 7:25:13 AM PST by Titus-Maximus (Light from Light)
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To: John Valentine

It will only take one of these devices being in private hands, outside of Rossi’s control, and having that device run successfully for many days to demonstrate that Rossi is or is not selling a scam. We will know shortly.


20 posted on 12/16/2011 7:38:16 AM PST by theBuckwheat
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To: BallandPowder

The problem is that the copper supposedly produced by the E-Cat has the same relative isotopic abundances as naturally-occuring copper which conclusively demonstrates that the device was seeded with copper.


21 posted on 12/16/2011 7:42:37 AM PST by bagman
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To: Sudetenland
It always amazes me that the most ardent advocates of these retarded scams are those who have virtually no background in science, understand nothing of thermodynamics, and probably have a close encounter in their past.

Fringe science hokum is like fly paper to them.
22 posted on 12/16/2011 7:43:02 AM PST by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: John Valentine
Which scam is that? Yours?

You ordered one, didn't you?
23 posted on 12/16/2011 7:45:26 AM PST by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: theBuckwheat
It will only take one of these devices being in private hands, outside of Rossi’s control, and having that device run successfully for many days to demonstrate that Rossi is or is not selling a scam. We will know shortly.
Rossi has been able to do this for at least a year, and has consistently refused to do so. What makes you think "we will know shortly"?

Rossi certainly looks like he's setting up an investment scam, and those can run for years, even decades, without ever delivering an actual device to end-users. As long as he can continue to convince gullible investors that he's making progress, he can continue to collect money for nothing.

24 posted on 12/16/2011 7:48:34 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: alloysteel

Powder..patch..ball FIRE!

You are so smart! Ohhhh!

Hot fusion is a dead end and a research money pit. They’ve been telling us it was 10 years away for the last 40 years.

LENR reactions are an overlooked source of energy. And once I did a search on commercial Nickel catalysts found that they are used worldwide for cracking operations where hydrogen has to be freed in a chemical reaction.

It doesn’t seem to far fetched to me that there are viable nickel catalysts that can do the trick. Rossi just isn’t telling.

Oh yeah, they said man ocould never fly, umm we could never go to the moon, room temperature semi-conductors were science fiction oh and my favorite. The world is flat.


25 posted on 12/16/2011 7:52:53 AM PST by BallandPowder
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To: Titus-Maximus
"Scientists are still unconvinced about the device and only repeated demonstrations can prove that it will work for the long term."

NO! Should read:

"Scientists are still unconvinced about the device and only repeated multiple, independent replications of results by independent (even skeptical) scientists -- with all components fabricated and assembled independently can prove that it will work for the long term."

There have already been too many "hocus-pokus" "demonstrations" run by Rossi, the scamster.

26 posted on 12/16/2011 7:54:21 AM PST by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: Titus-Maximus
Sunlight is free and abundant, the wind blows and the tides rise and fall each day yet all these energy sources do not provide “free” power even if you're squash plant or such.

It isn't even cheap power. Neither is Rossi’s cold fusion (”no, it's not cold fusion, it's Low Energy Nuclear Reaction”) water heater at a couple million per device.

So far more hot air than hot water has been produced. Remember only one device has been sold (Rossi says) and the so called demonstration was a demonstration of a optimistic sales pitch and little more.

The world hasn't been impacted, fossil fuel stocks aren't in a sell off as a result, darkest Africa will be just as dark next year, and my Sears hot water heater will serve me quite well. Yeee Hawwww.

27 posted on 12/16/2011 8:01:19 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Titus-Maximus

not much difference between this scam..and “green energy” ...”electric cars” .....”hot fusion”...and “globull warming/climate change”.....except that the hook tends to be a little prettier...and has a LOT more individuals and organizations on the line....


28 posted on 12/16/2011 8:02:47 AM PST by mo
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To: BallandPowder
"...once I did a search on commercial Nickel catalysts found that they are used worldwide for cracking operations where hydrogen has to be freed in a chemical reaction."

Only science ignoramuses equate catalyzed CHEMICAL reactions with NUCLEAR reactions.

Checked your head for a dunce cap lately?

29 posted on 12/16/2011 8:08:07 AM PST by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: pabianice
Why stop there? Why not turn iron into gold?

Because turning iron into anything else, either by fusion or fission uses energy, rather than producing energy. Ever look at the curve of nuclear binding energy?

Rossi may be a huckster running a scam, but his theory as to what is going on is within the realm of physical possibility, at least using standard binding energy calculations. If he ever gives permission for someone else to build an experimental model to his specs and it works, or someone else manages to get energy out of a Ni to Cu transformation in a properly controlled laboratory experiment, then we'll know he isn't.

30 posted on 12/16/2011 8:43:50 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: TXnMA

PRECISELY!


31 posted on 12/16/2011 8:46:52 AM PST by Titus-Maximus (Light from Light)
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To: alloysteel

No, the process posited to run his devices does not violate any laws of thermodynamics, at least not once the notion of energy is corrected for the interconvertibility of mass and energy given Einstein’s famous E = mc^2 (without which all nuclear reactions would appear to violate conservation of energy). The binding energy of the isotope of copper produced is lower than that of the nickel isotope, and there is no binding energy in a bare proton. The tiny mass difference between the proton plus nickle nucleus and the copper nucleus is what is supposedly being released by Rossi’s device.

I have no idea whether it’s real or a scam, but there are adequate theoretical explanations for the process that it can’t be dismissed.


32 posted on 12/16/2011 8:50:18 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: pabianice
Why not turn iron into gold?

What Rossi really does is turn bull$#!^ into money.

33 posted on 12/16/2011 9:33:42 AM PST by Burkean Buckleyite
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To: Titus-Maximus

Could someone give me an example of a ‘catalyst’ which induces a nuclear reaction?

Either fission or fusion examples would be acceptable...


34 posted on 12/16/2011 9:36:02 AM PST by LucianOfSamasota (No good deed...)
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To: The_Reader_David

But you’ve got to overcome the Coulombic repulsion. It’s hard enough to do with deuterium and tritium, where you have a grand total of three postive charges to overcome. To overcome the repulsion between nickel (positive charge of 28) and a proton will be quite a challenge.


35 posted on 12/16/2011 9:51:09 AM PST by bagman
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To: BallandPowder
Oh yeah, they said man ocould never fly, umm we could never go to the moon, room temperature semi-conductors were science fiction

Silliness. Using this same logic, you could say that anything is possible, when clearly it is not. I say its impossible to be unaffected by firing a .357 into your head. Wanna make a bet?

36 posted on 12/16/2011 11:25:50 AM PST by Paradox (The rich SHOULD be paying more taxes, and they WOULD, if they could make more money.)
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To: alloysteel
...seem to fly in the face of practically all thermodynamics...

Obviously, then, you do not understand what is going on in there. Neither do I, but that is not to say that it is any less real.

Who knows?

At any rate it has nothing to do with me, and time will tell if it is real or not. All I can say is that if this is a hoax, it has duped a large number of people who ought to know better under some pretty strict conditions of test. The rest of us can speculate all we like, as a kind of parlor game, but none of us are impacted at all one way or the other, so short of a final resolution, I'll stand on the sidelines.

37 posted on 12/16/2011 12:13:18 PM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: alloysteel
No one here is an expert in the matter but you do need to bring yourself up to date regarding the concept of "tunneling". George Gamow presented it as a solution to some problems in physics and it turned out to be just the trick.

No one disputes that "tunneling" is a real phenomenon. There are some disputes about how it occurs and whether or not we can ever control it at micro-quantity levels and relatively low aggregate temperatures.

The principle of conservation of energy is fully addressed in any serious discussion of the Strong Nuclear Force ~ we do, in fact, break atoms apart and release energy, and we do, in fact, fuse neutrons and protons to atomic nuclei on a regular basis ~ sometimes with brute force, and sometimes not.

LENR theory proposes that there are "windows of opportunity" in and among all those hot spots where we can do these things an atom at a time and take advantage of the released energy.

38 posted on 12/16/2011 6:47:51 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: LucianOfSamasota
It's a new concept and the inventor isn't saying. There are some researchers who believe they know what it has to be, but they're kinda' cagey when it comes to telling anyone all about it.

You know what screwed Sutter at Sutter's Mill in California? He shoulda' been the richest man in the world, but he didn't end up that way.

What happened is that after 3/4 of a century of Spanish settlers, soldiers, and priests, as well as American trappers and traders, and Russian trappers and traders finding gold, pocketing it, and being able to buy what they wanted where they wanted, and retire at early ages SOME IDIOT GAVE AWAY THE SECRET THAT THERE WAS GOLD AT SUTTER'S MILL!

39 posted on 12/16/2011 6:59:57 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: mo
There are, in fact, electric cars. The single problem that keeps them from being more common is the limited ability of the best batteries to hold enough charge to give them several hundred miles range.

We also do "hot fusion" with ease ~ there are several thousand devices that can do it ON COMMAND ~ they are called, popularly, Hydrogen Bombs.

The tokamak approach to hot fusion has been a multibillion dollar scam.

40 posted on 12/16/2011 7:08:33 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

“There are, in fact, electric cars”

http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-gets-loan-approval-us-department-energy

http://venturebeat.com/2010/06/01/fisker-raises-35m-more-to-unlock-federal-funds-launch-hybrid-karma/

these are scam electric cars.....


41 posted on 12/16/2011 7:39:50 PM PST by mo
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To: mo

http://www.auuuu.com/cars/pictures/Early-Electric-Cars.jpg was a very real “electric car”. Want to see a solar locomotive? Here it is: http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/40/OK_Mallet.jpg ~ BURNED WOOD!


42 posted on 12/16/2011 7:48:50 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: alloysteel
What is to keep the process from reversing, and in doing so, ABSORB a great deal of energy?

Yeah baby...E-cat air conditioning.

Getting the nuclei of four Hydrogen atoms (protons) to somehow fuse with the nucleus of ANY other element runs into a serious problem, right away. The existing nucleus will RESIST the approach of any additional protons, because of being a like charge, much like a magnet. Only the force of HUGE gravitational pressure will force the nuclei of hydrogen atoms to fuse, and that is what is at the heart of fusion. Which is what ignites the fire within a very large closely packed quantity of hydrogen, is this very great gravitational pressure.

Yeah, and I understand there is a gizmo that you can put on your car that makes hydrogen from water with free energy from the alternator. < /sarc >

43 posted on 12/16/2011 7:54:35 PM PST by ROCKLOBSTER ( Celebrate Republicans Freed the Slaves Month.)
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To: Titus-Maximus
For one thing Rossi is tight-lipped about the secret catalyst that's supposed to transform nickel into copper.

I can think of quite a few "catalysts" that are in fact copper based reactants. Until he allows his "experiment" do be duplicated independently he's just another snake oil salesman.

44 posted on 12/16/2011 10:27:21 PM PST by ElkGroveDan (My tagline is in the shop.)
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To: muawiyah

Here’s one you and I haven’t been mugged to pay for (yet)...

http://www.byd.com/e6.html


45 posted on 12/18/2011 6:05:33 AM PST by mo
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To: Titus-Maximus
One thing these shysters always mention is the the P&F effect has been replicated 14,700 times.

From some believer's post:

Pons-Fleishmann effect has been replicated more than 14,700 times.


That is great news! Now, let's look at the source for that claim:


Let's see, it appears to come from:
Frontiers of Physics in China


Wait, I found a source from the incredibly shy, Jed Rothwell:
September 22, 2009 2:16 PM
Jed Rothwell said...

You wrote:

"Am I an expert on this? No."

Then I suggest you read original, peer-reviewed sources written by experts.

". . . but F&P have simply not been replicated, despite numerous attempts."

That is incorrect. The effect has been replicated at well over 200 major laboratories (E. Storms, Los Alamos), in roughly 14,700 experimental runs (J. He, Chines Ac. of Sciences). Most replications that I have observed or read about were successful.


Hmmm, it seems to me that the only sources I could find were from our own Kevmo's endless spamming and the painfully shy Jed-thro Rothwell.

I would like to see multiple sources verifying this number since it's bandied about in every thread. Are the writers trying to reach critical mass so that when people question the number, they can answer," It's settled science". Yeah, like Global Warming.


I would like to see a couple of different, reliable sites confirming this number, until then, it's mere propaganda. Am I supposed to believe the P&F team who were seared, shunned and then declared Persona non grata would sit around knowing the method they found has been confirmed so they can get their credibility back or is this more hucksterism on behalf of the cold fusion true believers?
Do I think cold fusion or LENR is possible? I'm not qualified to say but if they are getting anomalous unexplainable results, then they'd be foolish to stop before they at least figure out the mechanism. If true, it will, not maybe, change the world.

While I might not be qualified on the nuclear physics, I am more than qualified to comment on their test procedures which would have had my physics teachers laugh in my face in front of the whole class. I know some of the slower folks are trying to make a joke about that, no, I was never laughed at in class. Being the first one done on every lab and every test tends to gain respect.


Shut all of us up and produce a peer reviewed journal that verifies the claim. I don't even care if it's 100 instead of 14,700. That would at least imply that there is some there, there which would justify funding for those labs.

Hell, if you want to find out if spanking leads to a homosexual kid, I bet the researchers would get wheelbarrows of money thrown at them and what exactly would the practical result of that type of research be anyway???


Confirm it or stop quoting it.
46 posted on 12/24/2011 7:32:07 AM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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