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Vermont fraternity chapter closed indefinitely over rape survey
Fox 8 ^ | 12/17/11 | LISA RATHKE

Posted on 12/19/2011 6:29:33 AM PST by Libloather

Vermont fraternity chapter closed indefinitely over rape survey
LISA RATHKE - Staff Writer
9:53 a.m. EST, December 17, 2011

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — A University of Vermont fraternity whose members are accused of circulating a survey that asked who they would like to rape has been closed indefinitely.

The national Sigma Phi Epsilon made the announcement Friday after an internal investigation and lengthy discussions with the university in Burlington.

"Without suggesting that every member had knowledge of this questionnaire, the questions asked in the document are deplorable and absolutely inconsistent with our values," said Brian Warren, executive director of the national fraternity organization based in Richmond, Va.

The national organization has said there's no indication the questionnaire was sanctioned by the fraternity or distributed to the more than 50 members of the Vermont chapter.

(Excerpt) Read more at fox8.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Vermont
KEYWORDS: fraternity; moralabsolutes; rape; survey; vermont
The silly things they teach at college...
1 posted on 12/19/2011 6:29:38 AM PST by Libloather
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To: Libloather

So who won the survey? Inquiring minds want to know.


2 posted on 12/19/2011 6:40:11 AM PST by Nonstatist
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: Libloather

This group of young men are the same age as those in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, WWII and WWI.

The disparity in maturity is stark.


4 posted on 12/19/2011 6:49:52 AM PST by buffaloguy
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To: Libloather

They must have violated double-secret-probation.


5 posted on 12/19/2011 6:54:29 AM PST by bigbob
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To: buffaloguy
This group of young men are the same age as those in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, WWII and WWI.

One group of tough, mature, responsible young military men, understands very clearly that there are consequences for your actions.

The other group of coddled, do-nothing, no accounts, just found out.
6 posted on 12/19/2011 7:02:39 AM PST by Shannon
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To: Libloather

At the University of Vermont, these frat boys must be a bunch of libs.


7 posted on 12/19/2011 7:20:34 AM PST by Montanabound
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To: Libloather

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


8 posted on 12/19/2011 7:26:02 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd

Remember we are talking about College aged kids here. Second an entire Fraternity was closed due to the actions of what appears to be a single person. So due to the fact that one knuckle head apparently sent out a irresponsible survey all the others were punished to make a Politically Correct statement. No hearing, no opportunity to find out who the person or persons were who did do this?

So to pander the FemNazis who want to be able to eject a young Man who has consensual sex on campus who may have made an alcohol fueled mistake. The US DOE is instituting a new procedure to eliminate due process for Men. This panders to the Feminists. Where is the due process? Where is there a sanction if the whole Fraternity was involved?

Shame on you for deciding to White Knight for the Feminists to punish and use the “nuclear option” and just close a Fraternity. So does the same apply if Sorority groups engage in promotion of say the “SCUM Manifesto”? Or if Sorority groups promote the “Good Rape” of a 13 year old in Eve Ensler’s “Vagina Monologues”???

This is clearly a double standard. Does the law and accountability apply equally to both Genders? Or do we continue to infantalize Women by protecting them from their bad decisions, while punishing Young Men?


9 posted on 12/19/2011 7:37:25 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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To: Khankrumthebulgar
So your assertion is that a survey on whom you wish to rape dare not have academic consequences, and that anyone who dares suggest that this have a consequence and be punished after due process must be a liberal?

Thank you Wrong Paul.

Liberal misuse of the system to punish normal behavior does not justify the opposite extreme of not standards at all. The kids weren't
t expelled, they just shut down their little club. Maybe their little club should have had some standards that were seriously enforced.

Boo hoo, their club got closed.

Do not try to sell anyone that a frat is more than that anywhere other than in the minds of its little members.

10 posted on 12/19/2011 7:48:24 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; wagglebee; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW

And for the record, as Ensler’s “Vagina Monologues” promotes lesbian pedophelia, yes, I have always been for expelling anyone associated with it from public funded academia - faculty as well as students. Peruse my past posting history. How do you like that one?


11 posted on 12/19/2011 7:53:38 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar

In Australia recently a Radical Feminist conference was held. That is promoting Sex selective abortions of Male babies. They are also promoting Gendercide the Mass Murder of Men. These Women many are involved in the education of Aussie Children. Where is the Conservative outrage? Where?

In Sweden a youtube video appeared based on Valerie Solanas SCUM Manifesto. Which advocated the murder of Men by Lesbians as “sport”, the Society for the Cutting Up of Men.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/brown-university-declares-due-process-dead/

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capitol/throwing_away_free_speech_YnikCHdqC3h5RxRzDEXO6O

http://allecto.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/scum-conference-draft-program/


12 posted on 12/19/2011 7:55:14 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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To: Libloather

If it’s anything like the Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter from my college back in the day, I can’t say I’m really surprised. The “Sig Apes” (as those not in that house referred to them) were known for some pretty heavy testosterone-fueled “adventures”.

Not quite on the level of Delta Tau Chi, but close. If memory serves, I recall reading that the chapter at my college was either closed or placed under double secret probation not too long ago.


13 posted on 12/19/2011 7:55:21 AM PST by ssaftler ("John Galt, we need you!")
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To: Libloather

At the University of Vermont, these frat boys must be a bunch of libs.


14 posted on 12/19/2011 8:01:53 AM PST by Montanabound
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To: ssaftler

Morality and ethics should be taught at home not enforced by the State. College was/is supposed to be about questioning and inquiry. As to the Wrong Paul comment go screw yourself. There is a war being waged against Men and Boys in our Feminized Education system. The young Men are entitled to due process a hearing at least to determine the person or persons responsible. The Nazis punished captured and occupied populations with the same method. It is called Fascism, the US used to be about Individual Liberty and Freedom. That includes the right to be an idiot and to say stupid things. If this survey led to criminal behavior we have laws to punish this.

This is thought crimes against the State. It smacks of the old USSR. I condemn boorish behavior. You are advocating punishment of the group for the actions of a person. You need to rethink your strategy. If you want to call me Wrong Paul for supporting Liberty. Thanks for the compliment. For the record. I am related to the Executive Presiding Judge of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. I understand History and have met persons who were imprisoned under the Old Soviet and East German system.


15 posted on 12/19/2011 8:02:44 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; ssaftler; MrEdd; Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; DJ MacWoW; little jeremiah; Coleus; ...
Morality and ethics should be taught at home not enforced by the State.

That is among the stupidest things I've EVER read.

Here is what our Founding Fathers believed:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,

Governments exist to protect individual rights and that means enforcing morality.

I suspect you are some sort of libertarian/anarchist who doesn't believe in government at all, but the reality is that ALL LAWS are about morality.

By your asinine philosophy government should do nothing to enforce laws against murder because it should be taught at home.

16 posted on 12/19/2011 8:09:37 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar

I think you need to pay closer attention. The national fraternity decided, after an investigation, to close the Vermont chapter. Neither the government or its quasi-proxy the university had anything to do with it. Sig Ep is clearly positioning itself to revive the chapter at a future date.

In my opinion, if the survey had been “who would you like to have sex with”, rather than “who would you like to rape”, it would probably have been received differently, though not embraced, certainly.


17 posted on 12/19/2011 8:10:50 AM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: Khankrumthebulgar
If you want to call me Wrong Paul for supporting Liberty. Thanks for the compliment.

Um, please check your reply button. I think you confused me with another post. I was noting that the Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter at the college I attended some 30 years ago has had similar problems to these idiots in Vermont. And they were pulling these "pranks" long before the current wave of Politically Correct BS (which I have maintained for years is neither Political nor Correct) began to rear its ugly head.

18 posted on 12/19/2011 8:11:17 AM PST by ssaftler ("John Galt, we need you!")
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To: Libloather

Some other parents of freshman high school girls and I were discussing last night the issue of the degrading influence hip hop culture has had on respect for females. At one of the most sought after schools in the city, the boys call the girls “b88ches” directly and one young lady was called “a f888ing who88” in front of a bunch of other students, The boys believe this language is cool.

The music these young people listen to has evil lyrics, the overpowering and abuse of others described in the music is disgusting and wrong.

The pendulum needs to swing the other way,


19 posted on 12/19/2011 8:14:21 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: MrEdd; Khankrumthebulgar

There was a time that a group of fathers would have gotten together and had a survey about which of these little scamps they would like to take on a ride out to the north forty where they would “administer a certain understanding” on the little pranksters.

Just kidding, they wouldn’t have bothered with a survey.

How times have changed, and not for the better.


20 posted on 12/19/2011 8:17:37 AM PST by Grizzled Bear (No More RINOS!)
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To: ssaftler

What constituted the “investigation”, why was there no hearing offered to the Fraternity? Thanks for the insults by the way. You are way off base. Yes morality is the basis of laws. This is a Free Speech issue. You seem to confuse that with actually engaging in Sexual Assault not asking a question. I hope you enjoy the repudiation of Free Speech to favor Thought control. PC is political correctness which is also polite tyranny. No thanks I have seen and known a Man sent to a Gulag for a Thought crime.

Now if this was a College sponsored by a Church or community of faith with a morals clause in the enrollment that would be a different matter. This was some innocuous survey, in questionable taste, even vulgar. It was not a crime.

We have excuse the word Cuntfests, Sex Clinics, Masturbation and Sex Toy demonstrations on our Colleges. Yet one idiot posts a survey and we close a Fraternity. How is that fair and equitable? It is a clear double standard to pander to Women. You are doing the Feminists job and especially the Gender and Radical Feminists job for them.


21 posted on 12/19/2011 8:21:50 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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To: Khankrumthebulgar

What we actually have here is the effects of the causation of removing Millions of Fathers from their families. We have had an implosion of morals and decency ever since. Who has promoted this? The Radical Feminists especially. We have young Women on our College campuses engaged in a moral sewer with Dating replaced with “Hook Ups”. The Garbage generation is a well thought out explanation of this phenomenon. As to instituting morality. We are placing all responsibility right now on One Gender Men. Women are exempt as their sexual expression is “empowerment”. Reason and principle is replaced with Feelings and sensitivity.

So in order not to offend the Women on campuses we punish Young Men. Who are not stupid and see this heavy handed double standard and say. Screw going to College it is like going to Prison. The reality is a moral nation supports moral behavior. As the populace embraces a lack of morality in order to maintain order our Liberty and Freedoms are restricted. We are giving up our Freedoms for order and security.


22 posted on 12/19/2011 8:29:38 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; wagglebee; ssaftler; MrEdd; Dr. Brian Kopp; trisham; DJ MacWoW; ...
Morality and ethics should be taught at home not enforced by the State.

That is the lamest sorry excuse for libertarian, anarchist thinking to ever be used and yet libertarian types never fail to trot it out.

Every law on the books is morality and ethics enforced by the state?

Or do you purpose doing away with laws against murder, rape, perjury, theft, slander, vandalism, etc?

23 posted on 12/19/2011 8:29:43 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

I have some more bad news brace yourself. The comments being made by young Men. Young Women are choosing Bad Boys. Yes Women still are the gatekeepers of sexual morality. That will never change. Young Women want Mr. Right Now, not Mr. Right. They are actually picking Men who are high status over Men who are decent and honorable.

So in order to protect Women from their bad choices, we decide to punish Men. This is a strategy doomed to fail. It will not work and is actually promoting the worst behavior in our Men. You reap what you sow. You sow the wind, you Reap the Whirlwind.

As to the Lady who posted the rubbish that I would propose ending Rape, Murder and other Crimes, it is a weak Straw Man argument you have put forth. Try again. You punish the bad behavior, you are trying to punish bad thoughts.

Coeds boycotting such behavior will do alot more to change it than Fraternity groups punishing young Men for “Thought Crimes”. Peer pressure will have a greater impact than this attempt to punish the group for the actions of one or two idiots.


24 posted on 12/19/2011 8:36:19 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; BykrBayb; wagglebee; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW; trisham; onyx; Politicalmom; ...
The sorriest bunch of blame shifting I've ever seen.

Women are just as wrong to contribute to the breakdown of morality, but men can say *No* instead of acting like animals in rut.


25 posted on 12/19/2011 9:15:39 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; BykrBayb; wagglebee; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW; trisham; onyx; Politicalmom; ...

Men ought to be holding other men accountable.


26 posted on 12/19/2011 9:16:58 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Or do you purpose doing away with laws against murder, rape, perjury, theft, slander, vandalism, etc?

And that is the lamest sorry excuse for a rebuttal to ever be used.

Each of those acts involves ACTUAL HARM to another person. See the difference?

When the state says that it is illegal to think immoral thoughts, or talk about unethical things, that's when libertarians have a problem with it.

27 posted on 12/19/2011 9:19:03 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: metmom

When Men or Women break the Law they must face the consequences. No law was broken here. This was a survey. With a inappropriate question asked. So Metmom you are actually advocating thought control? That is sorry to say UnAmerican. You want to eliminate Free Speech to control questionable or vulgar thinking? Would you advocate the elimination of the Bill of Rights to do so? Who makes the decision of what is questionable morality? Obama? CAIR? Do we impose Sharia in order to promote Moral behavior? I believe many Mullahs would agree with you.


28 posted on 12/19/2011 9:22:46 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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To: Khankrumthebulgar

Do you think NAMBLA should be allowed to promote and discuss homosexual pedophilia or not? They not only advocate homosexual pedophilia but have detailed instructions on how to “groom” boys and get their trust so that the can rape them.

Should that be protected under the First Amendment or not, according to you?

I posit that it should absolutely not be protected.


29 posted on 12/19/2011 9:41:31 AM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell.)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; metmom; little jeremiah
Women still are the gatekeepers of sexual morality.

No they aren't. Each of us are responsible for our own choices. Your excuse is an old one. As old as Adam and Eve.

What happened when Eve at the apple? Nothing. What happened when Adam ate it? The earth and everything in it and on it was condemned. ADAM was responsible and ADAM should have said "No!". Men are to lead by example and they're leading right down into the sewer.

30 posted on 12/19/2011 9:46:24 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; metmom; little jeremiah
Who makes the decision of what is questionable morality?

Another crap answer and question. What you are pushing is leftist moral relativism. And anarchy.

God is the arbiter of morals. Otherwise you are stating that whoever is in power gets to choose or you're pushing anarchy. There is no in between.

God says to control every thought. If you LET your mind wander into filth, that's where you'll reside.

31 posted on 12/19/2011 9:51:44 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; MrEdd; metmom; little jeremiah
Remember we are talking about College aged kids here.

Are you actually saying that they are too young to know right and wrong?!

32 posted on 12/19/2011 10:00:17 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW

I think Godwin’s Law can be invoked here.

In the discussion of morality and religion, the first one to compare the other to islamists concedes the debate.

That’s another sorry tactic of the religion hating side.


33 posted on 12/19/2011 10:13:55 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: mvpel

As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

Actions are the fruit of the thoughts. If someone is going to have his mind in the sewer, he will act it out sooner or later.

As far as what’s going on here, the action was taken by the group at the national level and was not the actions of the government. The headquarters of the group had every right to censure the chapter under it’s purview.


34 posted on 12/19/2011 10:20:01 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar

So now you are asserting all the young women here choose to have some frat rats draw up a survey on which ones to rape?

Really?


35 posted on 12/19/2011 10:26:51 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: metmom
Actions are the fruit of the thoughts. If someone is going to have his mind in the sewer, he will act it out sooner or later.

Exactly - this is a natural law.

36 posted on 12/19/2011 11:26:15 AM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell.)
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To: DJ MacWoW
God is the arbiter of morals. Otherwise you are stating that whoever is in power gets to choose or you're pushing anarchy. There is no in between.

I often try to point this fact out to liberaltarians, and they refuse to see the simple truth. Unrestrained hedonism will always lead to chaos and anarchy, which then eventual ushers in the Big Dog of ultimate jackbooted thugism, which they all claim to hate. And then the powerful make the rules. There are two choices about morality:

1. Following the standard, universal moral absolutes described in religions.

2. Each human decides for themselves what's good and bad, right and wrong. Which of course quickly ushers in the aforementioned chaos and anarchy. It's so simple a 5 or 6 year old child can understand this.

37 posted on 12/19/2011 11:31:04 AM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell.)
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To: little jeremiah
Liberaltarians tend to not think things through. ;-)

They also claim to want to return to what the founders intended. Their problem is that THEY had morality laws on a state level. ALL states had them.

38 posted on 12/19/2011 11:35:41 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Libloather
The main activities of my fraternity in the late 60s were parties with young women, and underage drinking, so nothing is new.

We were a chapter of a big, old national fraternity. For years during the 70s my chapter was kicked off campus, suspended, made inactive, etc. It was the party house, among party houses.

But today it cleaned up. This link shows the brothers participating with the campus young ladies, in a hot dog eating contest, to raise money for charity.

http://phisigmakappa.blogs.marketpath.com/news-and-events-blog/iota-pentaton-raises-1-000-for-special-olympics

Another article on the site shows that two chapters were closed.

Finally, my fraternity turned out veterans, at least one Fortune 500 CEO, two Superior Court judges, etc.

The amazing thing was the huge number of beautiful young women who turned out when we announced a party. During the summer 1967 known as "Thursday Night Party" when we sold silk-screen T-shirts, to pay for 7 kegs of beer.

Then a few brothers went to Vietnam and got killed.

39 posted on 12/19/2011 12:01:50 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: Libloather; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AKA Elena; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]

Interesting discussion. How far should freedom of speech" go? Are NAMBLA instruction manuals - "how to" guides to groom boys for turning them into victims covered by the First Amendment? And another point is - this fraternity is a private organizations. They have the freedom to disallow obscenity and the advocation of rape even if the government is curtailed by a stupid ruling (or maybe more than one in this regard) by the SCOTUS years ago.

40 posted on 12/19/2011 12:04:54 PM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

They pretend as though we want federal laws against sodomy, porn, or whatever vices they want protected. When we point out that we want the states to be able to make such laws; they disappear and/or totally ignore out points.

I think the reason (one of them, anyway) they can’t think is another plank on the LP platform, if you get my drift... Actually will be pinging an article in that regard in a bit.


41 posted on 12/19/2011 12:14:47 PM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell.)
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To: little jeremiah

Any liberaltarian that I’ve talked to is one simply because they want to freely practice their own vices.


42 posted on 12/19/2011 12:28:58 PM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Khankrumthebulgar; wagglebee; little jeremiah; metmom
"Without suggesting that every member had knowledge of this questionnaire, the questions asked in the document are deplorable and absolutely inconsistent with our values," said Brian Warren, executive director of the national fraternity organization based in Richmond, Va.

****************************

Is this not a private organization? If this organization decides that a chapter should be closed, should the government become involved?

43 posted on 12/19/2011 12:41:32 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

Touche’.......


44 posted on 12/19/2011 12:47:34 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: trisham; Khankrumthebulgar; wagglebee; little jeremiah; DJ MacWoW
Is this not a private organization? If this organization decides that a chapter should be closed, should the government become involved?

Libertarians simply CANNOT be consistent in their position on government involvement, which shows the fallacy of their position.

45 posted on 12/19/2011 1:09:35 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Liberaltarians’ (and some others) very platform of belief cancels itself out, internally. The inherent contradictions destroy it from within. Only people who are wilfully blind can belief utter nonsense.


46 posted on 12/19/2011 10:27:08 PM PST by little jeremiah (We will have to go through hell to get out of hell.)
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To: little jeremiah

http://www.vermontcynic.com/news/fraternity-closed-indefinitely-former-members-speak-out-1.2682802#.TvC9OfKj6uI

The truth is coming out. It was one student who was a Frat Member other Frat Members told him to remove the post. So in typical FemNazi pandering fashion. The National Fraternity closed the fraternity punished Frat members who were not involved. It is appalling that Conservatives including Women want to censor Free Speech. Free Speech includes vulgar, objectionable and even moronic behavior. Freedom implicitly means you can make mistakes, act idiotic and even engage in boorish and crude language.

Former SigEp members said that the fraternity as a whole didn’t have much to do with the survey, and that it was the actions of one person that led to this incident.

“One individual was responsible for coming up with the appalling question,” former SigEp member Wes Lewis said. “It was never answered because who it was asked to refused to answer it and the told the new member to change the question immediately.”

Lewis also said that it was series of questions between individuals rather than a survey.

Members of the fraternity are still unsure of who authored the question, he said.

Other former fraternity members said that they were surprised at how quickly the situation escalated.

“I feel like this whole entire thing came out of nowhere,” former SigEp member K.C. Charles said. “It was a fraternity against the world pretty much during the worst time of the semester.”

Charles also said that it’s incredibly hard to be a fraternity nowadays with the stigmas of the past attached and that they are just judged before people get to know them.

Though some former members may be feeling upset about the decision to close Sigma Phi Epsilon’s chapter at UVM, Lewis said it’s a decision that must be acknowledged.

“Our national organization chose to shut us down,” he said. “That is something they believed would benefit SigEp as a whole so we need to accept that.”


47 posted on 12/20/2011 10:14:19 AM PST by Khankrumthebulgar
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