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Population Control, Marauder Style (Chart/Graph Fail)
New York Times ^ | November 06, 2011 | Bill Marsh

Posted on 12/20/2011 8:28:04 AM PST by fireforeffect

Chart of Mega-Deaths or Multicides in human history, with one exception. The Holocaust.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: dictators; multicide; population; populationcontrol
Yeah, I normaly deride post from the New York Slimes, but here their revisionist history is showing.
1 posted on 12/20/2011 8:28:07 AM PST by fireforeffect
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To: fireforeffect

Any mention of deaths from the Islamic conquest that started in the middle east and spread across North Africa into Spain?

How about the deaths resulted from Ottomen Turk’s expansion into the balkans?

I missed both on the timeline.


2 posted on 12/20/2011 8:35:26 AM PST by Roger_Wildcat
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To: fireforeffect

I don’t see cambodian killing fields, either.
15 million for the conquest of the Americas? Speculative at best.


3 posted on 12/20/2011 8:38:58 AM PST by steve8714 (A-B-O-E-R-&G)
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To: fireforeffect

Something tells me they include the Holocaust under WWII.

But take note how they categorize this crap. If the Holocaust had been a protected minority, it would have been “Institutional Oppression.”

The whole thing is a bit of a joke the way it is presented, but what can you expect?


4 posted on 12/20/2011 8:38:58 AM PST by bolobaby
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To: fireforeffect

Maybe, just maybe, their Jewish readers will have their right hands lose their cunning and their Times subscriptions...


5 posted on 12/20/2011 8:38:58 AM PST by null and void (Day 1064 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: fireforeffect

They got the Mideast slave trade (Muslim) in there for 18.5M versus 16M for the Atlantic slave trade.


6 posted on 12/20/2011 8:52:31 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: fireforeffect

It is in WWII I’m sure.

What about the bigger more significant holocaust? Abortion US & Worldwide.


7 posted on 12/20/2011 8:54:20 AM PST by GulfBreeze
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To: steve8714
15 million for the conquest of the Americas? Speculative at best.

Speculative, true, but also probably understated.

If you figure in those who died from introduced diseases, the number is probably upwards of 100M.

However, these people would have still died had all contact been utterly peaceful. The epidemics were a consequence of the merging of the Afro-Eurasian and American disease ecosystems, and could not have been prevented by any technology of the time. We'd have a tough time preventing them today.

8 posted on 12/20/2011 8:58:10 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: fireforeffect

Difficult chart to read. Instead of simply stating the numbers, it looks to me like one has to work at finding the info. For example: At the bottom of the chart it says “Deaths per year in millions.” So, if I am reading it correctly, one should look at the range of years of an event and multiply it by the number given. Deaths from WWII would actually be 56.4 instead of 9.4.


9 posted on 12/20/2011 8:58:47 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: steve8714

Cambodia is listed as “Democratic Kampuchea” under the “Despots” section. They list 1.67 million which is a pretty good estimate.


10 posted on 12/20/2011 8:59:18 AM PST by JoeDetweiler
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To: null and void
Read recently that there have been 250 million killed as a result of Muslim expansion since its beginnings approximately 630 AD. This is no where on the graph. Look at that number compared to the crusades. Strange thing about the crusades many of the deaths were not battle related, and many were fellow Christians in Constantinople that were killed.

How many others were forced conversions (people not of the Book-Christians and Jews), and how many Christians and Jews eventually converted after years of being a virtual slave to Islam?

Funny thing our first senator from Florida, David Yulee had a father who was raised in a Moroccan harem. He was born in the Caribbean, and eventually became a wealthy man. He changed his last name to Yulee after our county was named after him.

11 posted on 12/20/2011 8:59:34 AM PST by Yulee (Village of Albion)
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To: steve8714
I don’t see cambodian killing fields, either.

That may be listed under "Democratic Kampuchea" @ 1.67M.

12 posted on 12/20/2011 9:01:57 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Nevadan

I don’t know where you are getting 9.4 for WWII. The chart says 66 million.


13 posted on 12/20/2011 9:02:06 AM PST by JoeDetweiler
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To: JoeDetweiler

I don’t see the 66 for WWII. The 9.4 per year is listed in the box at the very bottom of the chart.


14 posted on 12/20/2011 9:06:15 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: Nevadan

“I don’t see the 66 for WWII. The 9.4 per year is listed in the box at the very bottom of the chart.”

I see......Second World War is under the first section....”Deaths from International Wars.” At the bottom is the 9.4 / year figure, but they have listed the war as seven years long....1938 - 1945....so that equals 65.8 million.


15 posted on 12/20/2011 9:11:35 AM PST by JoeDetweiler
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To: JoeDetweiler
The data are poorly represented on the chart.

9.4 is the number of millions of WWII deaths PER YEAR in the data block, lower left.

66 is the TOTAL number of WWII deaths (on multiple continents) in the Deaths from International Wars section at the top.

According to The New York Times, murdering muslims don't count, nor do murdered Jews.

No bias here...

16 posted on 12/20/2011 9:14:53 AM PST by null and void (Day 1064 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: JoeDetweiler

Thanks. I see what you are looking at now. On the chart at the bottom they have the stats for the war starting in 1939 instead of 1938. That makes up the difference.


17 posted on 12/20/2011 9:16:08 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: Nevadan

A lot depends on when you think WWII actually started...


18 posted on 12/20/2011 9:17:36 AM PST by null and void (Day 1064 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: Nevadan

As I said, the data is poorly presented.


19 posted on 12/20/2011 9:19:32 AM PST by null and void (Day 1064 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: null and void

I agree.


20 posted on 12/20/2011 9:24:36 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: Yulee
Correction of David Yulee Levy's name.

Read recently that there have been 250 million killed as a result of Muslim expansion since its beginnings approximately 630 AD. This is no where on the graph. Look at that number compared to the crusades. Strange thing about the crusades many of the deaths were not battle related, and many were fellow Christians in Constantinople that were killed as the crusaders passed through.

If Martel the Hammer had not stopped Islam at the Battle of Tours in 732 AD, all of Europe would have fallen under its rule.

The crusades were to take back the holy lands from those who had invaded and conquered formerly Christian nations.
Also remember that the final conquest of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire)was shortly before 1492, when Constantinople fell and was renamed Istanbul.

Our country is the direct result of Europe looking west to find a shorter route to the Indies. The major reason was to avoid the enormous additional cost of imported goods from the east. Muslims controlled the trading routes and added cost at every turn to goods that were headed west. They also controlled Greece and a lot of eastern European nations under the Ottoman Empire..

How many people were forced to convert to Islam or die. Of course the "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) were allowed to live as third class members of Islamic society. Iranians (Persians),who are not Arabs, had their own religion, and at one time Persia had a Jewish queen. How many Christians and Jews eventually converted after years of being a virtual slave to Islam, or died because they were perceived as insulting Islam?

Side Note: Funny thing our first senator from Florida, David Yulee Levy had a father who was raised in a Moroccan harem. David was born in the Caribbean, and eventually became a wealthy man. He changed his last name to Yulee after our county was named after him. The Confederate treasury eventually ended up at his plantation in Archer, FL, but shortly disappeared

21 posted on 12/20/2011 9:28:31 AM PST by Yulee (Village of Albion)
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To: fireforeffect
Amazing how many of the top ten involve China. Either in civil wars, Mao, Fall of Ming Dynasty, or invasion Genghis Khan and 10-20 million casualties in WWII.
22 posted on 12/20/2011 9:45:22 AM PST by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: Roger_Wildcat
Well, you must not offend the peaceful muslims, after all.
23 posted on 12/20/2011 10:14:12 AM PST by fireforeffect (A kind word and a 2x4, gets you more than just a kind word.)
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To: steve8714
Missed that one.

15 million for the conquest of the Americas? Speculative at best.

If you include the Aztecs killed by disease from the Spaniards and those europeans my ancestors got, maybe.

24 posted on 12/20/2011 10:16:39 AM PST by fireforeffect (A kind word and a 2x4, gets you more than just a kind word.)
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To: fireforeffect; maikeru; Dr. Marten; Eric in the Ozarks; Al Gator; snowsislander; sushiman; ...
No mention of Japan's Sengoku Jidai in the 1500s, Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea from 1592, the Shimabara Rebellion in 1638, or the Russo-Japanese War from 1904.

Or the Philippine-American War from 1899.

25 posted on 12/20/2011 11:19:31 AM PST by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: steve8714
If you'd lined all the Spaniards up on one side and all the Indians on the other side of a large valley, and the Spaniards were armed with swords and guns, and the Indians were just naked ~ the Indians would have overwhelmed and killed all the Spaniards just with their presence.

There were never enough Spaniards in the Americas to kill even a small number of people.

Earlier folks pointed to Smallpox as a possibility for the widespread deaths, but more recently they've pointed to HANTA VIRUS. It is native to the entire planet. It comes and goes with droughts.

It can easily kill tens of millions of people in their prime of life leaving the elderly and small children behind to fend for themselves as best they can.

26 posted on 12/20/2011 12:11:39 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Roger_Wildcat

Coming as it did on the heels of one of the greatest mass deaths in human history (plague of justinian AND an unknown but quite potent weather anomaly that affected the Chinese core civilization, Central Asia and Western Europe) the Moslem “conquest” was a lot less bloody than they’d have liked. Just not as many people to kill ~


27 posted on 12/20/2011 12:14:42 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Sherman Logan
Hanta Virus is endemic worldwide. That's one of a handful of diseases that can wipe out 95% of a population.

Current opinion is that a hanta virus epidemic killed tens of millions of Indians.

Might put this in your future notes, that's probably what was killing off the Jamestown settlers (plus some other stuff), and what kept any large scale European settlements from being made on the American continental mainlands until the 1600s.

Even the Spanish focused almost entirely on the islands in the 1500s ~ and if you read their journals you find out that they knew about the disease ravaging the land.

28 posted on 12/20/2011 12:20:35 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
kept any large scale European settlements from being made on the American continental mainlands until the 1600s.

Not really true. While England had no successful settlements till then, the Spanish were all over Central and South America. The Islands were very largely abandoned by the Spanish after the first two or three decades of the 1500s due to the incredible opportunities on the mainland.

However, after the initial looting the mainland colonies went through an extended economic depression that lasted most of the 16th century, due primarily to the ongoing depopulation caused mainly, though not exclusively, by Eurasian diseases.

One of the major killers in Mexico during the mid to late 16th century was cocoliztli, which some believe is hantavirus or something similar. But nobody knows for sure.

29 posted on 12/20/2011 12:29:42 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
England had no successful settlements BEFORE 1604 because they were in constant warfare with Spain.

When King Philippe II/III crammed down the Treaty of London on all his enemies and allies, settlements could be developed.

However, prior to that Spanish settlements on the mainlands were small and few in number. Spanish power in the Americas was seen mostly on the islands.

The Portuguese had no problem bringing in slaves to replace Indians ~ but in 1535 Spain took over Portugual and ended that for a while. That's what probably killed the economies ~ but I'll go further in this, there was nothing terribly important happen in the Americas beyond gold-mining until nearly the end of the 17th century. With the Thirty Years War out of the way, and Europes return to a growth economy, they had the resources to subsidize American ventures.

The 1700s are big time here with American born European origin populations rapidly achieving near European sizes ~ but not densities.

30 posted on 12/20/2011 12:47:52 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
However, prior to that Spanish settlements on the mainlands were small and few in number.

In North America absolutely correct.

Central and South America were a whole other story. The annual Treasure Fleet to bring back the bullion from the New World started in 1566, largely because the Spanish were forced to convoy by pirates and buccaneers.

Very little of the wealth it transported came from the islands. It came from Peru (mostly from Potosi, founded in 1546) and Mexico (mostly Zacatecas, founded about the same time)

Meanwhile Cuba, Hispaniola and Jamaica were largely depopulated by Spanish colonists moving to the Spanish Main, leaving Jamaica vulnerable to the English and western Hispaniola to the French.

31 posted on 12/20/2011 1:14:15 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

“due primarily to the ongoing depopulation caused mainly, though not exclusively, by Eurasian diseases.”

I read fairly recently that the worst plague was not brought by the Spaniards at all, but was endemic to the area.

Wish I could find that again.


32 posted on 12/20/2011 1:55:50 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: DTogo

Didn’t see China’s Tai Ping rebellion, either.


33 posted on 12/20/2011 1:57:53 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

“Didn’t see China’s Tai Ping rebellion, either.”

Under “Civil Wars.” 20 million.


34 posted on 12/20/2011 2:30:22 PM PST by JoeDetweiler
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To: Sherman Logan
We are led to believe the gold came mostly from Mexico and Peru ~ and no doubt there was some gold that did ~ but the Spanish had a major gold strike in the Philippines ~ they transported that across the Pacific to the Americas and then transported it to Europe in well guarded convoys.

As far as North America (North of Mexico) no one really knows what the Spanish were up to but there were Spaniards and allies all over the place ~ maybe more than 20,000 people by the mid 1600s.

As far as developing South America was concerned, Argentina was still killing off Indians to open up lands for Italian and Spanish settlers in the early 1900s. There were VAST areas totally unsettled or developed throughout all of South America. In fact, there still are empty places.

Ever check out Canada North of Winipeg? That was Chile South of Santiago ~

35 posted on 12/20/2011 3:02:45 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: JoeDetweiler

“Didn’t see China’s Tai Ping rebellion, either.”
Under “Civil Wars.” 20 million.”

Thanks.

More like 40 million, though.


36 posted on 12/20/2011 3:18:01 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Sherman Logan

You’d have to kill every Indian alive in the 16th and 17th centuries to get to 15 million, much less 100 million.


37 posted on 12/20/2011 5:27:53 PM PST by steve8714 (A-B-O-E-R-&G)
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To: dsc

See post 29. Like most attempts to reconstruct epidemic effects from centuries ago, these claims are speculation.

However, while the disease organism itself may have been endemic, it does not appear to have ever struck before (or since for that matter), which indicates something about the Spanish invasion may have contributed to it breaking out.

The most common opinion is that it was hantavirus, which is found all over the world but seldom affects humans, certainly not in epidemic form.

But when hanta does hit, it is remarkably deadly. Killed my sister’s best friend in CO. Dead less than 36 hours after symptoms started, and probably less than four days after exposure. Symptoms somewhat similar to Ebola. Very nasty.


38 posted on 12/21/2011 6:57:38 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: steve8714
You’d have to kill every Indian alive in the 16th and 17th centuries to get to 15 million, much less 100 million.

Suggest you read 1491 by Charles Mann. In 1500 it is likely the population of Mexico alone was 25M or more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_population#Population_overview

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/2445/

In any event, the wilderness with only occasional small Indian villages seen by the first explorers in most areas was not what had been there in 1500. In most areas, they saw the rough equivalent of what America might look like 50 or 100 years after a nuclear war had destroyed 75% to 95% of the population.

In 1540 Desoto explored the lower Mississippi valley. He described numerous populous cities, with several to be seen in the distance from each.

In the 1680s La Salle explored the same area. He described what was essentially wilderness, with occasional small primitive villages.

39 posted on 12/21/2011 7:07:40 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: muawiyah
We are led to believe the gold came mostly from Mexico and Peru ~ and no doubt there was some gold that did ~ but the Spanish had a major gold strike in the Philippines ~ they transported that across the Pacific to the Americas and then transported it to Europe in well guarded convoys.

Nope. The Manila galleons sailed back and forth across the Pacific. They carried spices, silks, porcelain from the Orient to Mexico and returned with silver from Mexico and Peru to pay for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_galleon

Anson captured one of the westbound galleons in 1743. It was loaded with silver and was one of the greatest prizes of all time. Individual sailors received 20 years wages as prize money. Officers of course got a great deal more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Anson%27s_voyage_around_the_world

40 posted on 12/21/2011 7:16:35 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: DTogo

Thanks for the ping...interesting thread!


41 posted on 12/21/2011 8:24:43 AM PST by TEXOKIE (... and Merry Christmas to all FREEPERS EVERYWHERE!)
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To: Sherman Logan

Populous cities to Desoto might have been 15-25000, quite a big city for pre-indoor plumbing society. The people at Cahokia were supposed to be big shots and that’s the best estimate of their city.
Even so, it’s pure speculation that these were killed by Europeans or by interaction (disease, etc.) with the Europeans. Floods, famines, wars, plagues and droughts are much more likely candidates.


42 posted on 12/21/2011 10:30:15 AM PST by steve8714 (A-B-O-E-R-&G)
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To: Sherman Logan

“...it does not appear to have ever struck before...

The article I read asserted that it *had* struck before, which was the primary support for their assertion that it was not caused by Spaniards.

“But when hanta does hit, it is remarkably deadly. Killed my sister’s best friend in CO. Dead less than 36 hours after symptoms started, and probably less than four days after exposure. Symptoms somewhat similar to Ebola. Very nasty.”

My condolences to all concerned. Do they know how the friend was exposed? Prairie dogs, perhaps?


43 posted on 12/21/2011 10:31:43 AM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

It probably was field mice or other rodents. The people who were going to clean out their horse stalls didn’t show, so she did it herself. Probably inhaled dust with the virus from rodent urine on it.

Three little kids. Very sad.


44 posted on 12/21/2011 1:03:46 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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