Posted on 12/20/2011 9:15:48 AM PST by Paladins Prayer
In writing this piece, Im reminded of a little exchange between the late William F. Buckley and friend and fellow National Review writer Florence King. Buckley had just penned some less-than-flattering words about a recently deceased person of prominence whose name escapes me, and King chided him, saying something to the effect that he had broken ground in journalism: the attack-obit. Buckleys response was, Wait till you see the obituary I have planned for you!
And in writing this critical article about bon vivant Christopher Hitchens in the wake of his death this past Thursday, I expect some ridicule as well. Yet I dont think Hitchens would demand to be spared the acidic ink he used to eviscerate others or that he would have any credibility doing so. Remember that this was the man who, before the gentle Jerry Falwells body was even cold, said things such as If he [Falwell] had been given an enema, he could have been buried in a matchbox and I wish there was a Hell for Falwell.
For my part, I wouldnt wish eternal damnation on Hitchens; I truly hope he rests in peace. But I cant say the same for his legacy. And when I see the obligatory exaltation of his lifes work with secular icons, the deader they get, the better they were I think that legacy needs a little damnation.
(Excerpt) Read more at thenewamerican.com ...
Emmanuel means God with us - he lived it and was referred to even indirectly as such on His death by the Roman guards.
Analysis on the 4 gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John indicates that each one must have been written last - so yes an impossible conclusion that can only indicate the hand of God.
There is enough commonality and yet uniqueness in each of these eyewitness accounts to be held up as factual evidence in a modern day court of law - and they usually only require 2 or 3 credible witnesses. See the small paperback book “More Than a Carpenter” by Josh McDowell - I DARE YOU!!!
But it’s not easy to tell a know-it-all teacher where they are wrong...
Would not matter if I had - it is you who needs to go back and read and research - FR is only a discussion forum. I don’t think you want me to assume the role of your teacher...
Not as long as you continue playing fast and loose with the truth.
APL: “No, there is not much correlation between the archaeological record and the Bible. They both agree that there was a flood, but the Bible isn’t the only place that information was recorded.”
-The other flood accounts [see http://shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/arche.htm ] have a lot more in common that different so how would you know if they did not all originate from the same account?
APL: “Any prophecies Jesus’ life seems to fulfill is because his disciples changed the details of his life to fit the descriptions as best they could after his death.”
-If they tried to change details to fit their story all the other critics and budding believers would have utterly destroyed the credibility needed.
“He shall be called Emmanuel”
-See Crosswalk.com and search, it will give you hundreds of [both old and new] direct references to this name.
APL: “Yeah, they called him that all the time! Sure!”
-Both God and Jesus are given lots of different names titles and references [apparently just to confuse you - sarc]
APL: “He shall be born of a virgin.”
-The account is factual imho b/c this is an article of faith that neither of us can truly resolve. An omnipotent God can do anything he pleases - even suspend the motion of the solar system for any length of time.
APL: “He shall be born in Bethlehem.”
-How is that not a given? We have evidence and also why they fled Israel due to Herod and why they returned to a different town - as he was known as a Nazarene! Grew up there from 7 years on iirc. See Micah 5:2 written centuries before - the town name appears over 40 times in the old testament and 8 in the new - you can check all these scriptures using crosswalk.com to search the Bible - heck I even entered a partially remembered phrase into other search engines and find the actual wording or in some cases the error - God has never said “this too shall pass” not ‘the Lord helps those who help themselves” they are just trite little sayings the culture repeats until people begin to think it so.
APL: ‘She was 9 months pregnant and ...’
Yes, when she delivered the baby - does not say specifically how long the journey of approx 70 miles took due to the decree of an evil King Herod - this is fulfilled prophecy again showing God knowing all these events from beginning to end before any had transpired. In Moses day the Egyptian Pharoah was used by God to fulfill prophecies.
+You do know of course that there were several different Kings in and around Jesus time named Herod - proven again by the archaeological records.
APL: “He shall rise again.”
YES He did! Of course, they didn’t ‘immediately’ recognize him -
Luke 24:15 Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him...
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself...
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?
APL: “Some of you will not taste death until the Kingdom of God comes”
-Au contraire I say still true and neither of us can prove that one either. No mere mortal could ever prove a future prophecy.
APL - [your words rephrased from my perspective]:
Look if you want to believe in all this ‘by mere chance all things’ nonsense, you go right ahead. I know people who believe as I do and we are commanded to defend our faith. But I am not selling it to you. You have free will and I am happy to try to please my Lord by following his decrees - to give a defense for why we believe.
You can keep all your money - the research is easy enough to do most of it right there at your computer.
Because some of the things you say are future prophecies to be fulfilled at His second coming. The 1st set of prophecies are call lamb prophecies - as in Christ the sacrificial lamb - the others are called lion prophecies when He returns to overthrow sin, and to establish his millenial kingdom.
I’ve posted no threats - you are just plain wrong.
The logic of this statement is irrefutable, dear Notary Sojac!
But if any State were so foolhardy as to conceive that it really had the "power" to command individual conscience, that state would be "illegitimate" by definition, even insane. For such a State has transgressed a firm bound of reality, which stipulates that States are creatures of men, not of Nature; thus men, being "natural-born," so to speak, cannot be "creatures of the State." (For "Nature" comes first. :^) )
Men are (to use Christian terminology comfortably familiar to the Framers), creatures of God, and such creatures! for alone of all beings in the natural (created) world, they were "made" in His Image. Which is why the Framers held as "self-evident" the proposition that such creatures are "naturally" possessed of divinely endowed, thus inalienable, sovereign, "equal" rights as unique individual persons. As to the constitutional hierarchy of power, We the People come first: Under the constitutional system the Framers gave us, We the People are the Principals; the government (i.e., the state) is our Agent.
The point is agents do not give instructions to their principals; they execute instructions received from their principals, a "higher source" which can readily be apprehended by viewing the Preamble to the U. S. Constitution.
Under the (arguably Christian) understandings that underlay the purpose and design of the U.S. Constitution, for the agent to start telling the principal what to do to "command his conscience," as it were, or at least bring it into conformity with State plans through coercive methods if need be would be living, de facto, direct evidence of profound illegitimacy in the order of the State. The nightmare of a stalking, all-powerful, wholly unprincipled Leviathan then comes to mind.... So far at least, only in my nightmares....
Thomas Hobbes, philosopher and amazingly fecund political thinker envisioned this "beast," which he named Leviathan. It is civil government at the lowest common denominator: in which human persons willingly, routinely, sacrifice their "liberty" for "safety" understood as something the State can provide them with in the first place. Little do they suspect that the State itself is a main source of disorder which leads to conditions of "un-safety" in our communities. Which dangers, of course, the State promises to remediate. :^)
Talk about a "zero-sum game" for human beings! Don't blame the Lord for making your life miserable, or even for condemning you blame your fellow man instead!
But enuf of that for now. Turning to another point you raised, the absolute dependency of the United States of America on the "separation of Church and State."
Given the above discussion, I don't think such a thing is necessary or even do-able. I don't see how it can be a "problem," since the unity of order and spirit seems so universal to the way men practically think and act. It's like a demand for the "separation" of body and psyche in man....
A problem for another time perhaps.
At this point, on this question I'd like us to remember two of the most powerful promulgators and defenders of the American "doctrine" of separation of Church and State: Thomas Jefferson (1743 1826) and Roger Williams (c. 1603 1683).
Since Roger came first, let's do him first.
Roger Williams was a Puritan minister who was banished from my home state Massachusetts, on pain of execution, should he ever return to the Commonwealth. And all this because he was absolutely, unabashedly, uncompromisingly "on political record" as opposing any consolidation of Church and State. Above all, he was concerned about the primacy and dignity of individual conscience in discerning man's relations to God, man (self and other), world, and society....
Of course, the folks of Massachusetts at that time were engaged in doing precisely that: Winthrop's "shining city on a hill" would be instantiated in an established State Church in Massachusetts.
Probably Williams would have died on the Cross before his conscience would have approved/permitted such a thing as a "consolidation" of Church and State. And his reasoning on this topic is most instructive: He as much as said (paraphrasing), we know that states, being human constructions, are bound to "err," to "fall off the tracks" of the Good as if they were subject to some law of "inverted moral gravity."
AND SO there should never, ever be any consolidation of Church and State, on grounds that the State could only "corrupt" the Church!!!
In short, Roger Williams envisioned the separation of Church and State as a profound moral problem, which recognizes that one can't get to Truth if one is following an immoral path....
Thomas Jefferson probably the truest exemplar of Enlightenment thinking of all the Framers was (I think) trying to get around the "moral problem" by "reducing" its resolution to more comprehensive, abstract principles that did not depend on direct human experience for their verification. Which is to say, the "separation of Church and State" was, for Jefferson, a matter of political policy, on "technical" and mass "social" grounds.
Well, whatever you think about these problems, dear Notary Sojac and I'd love to hear more I've got to stop for now, and simply wish you and all your dear ones:
A very merry and blessed Christmas, and a happy, healthy, prosperous New Year!!!
No Sale.
You're trying to shove it down my throat like medicine. You need to stop. If I don't want it, I don't want it.
If anyone could know for sure why would anyone need faith? There are many denominations and religions but you will not be held accountable for them. You will be held accountable for you.
There is something very different and very special about the Bible. It is not a collection of stories; it contains historical information that is verifiable. It contains prophesies that have come true. And it includes prophesies that are coming true right before our eyes. Additionally, it has impacted the world in deep and lasting ways more than any other written text. And yet you call it sound and fury which signifies nothing.
Who is Jesus Christ? There are only three possible answers: 1) a liar, 2) a madman, 3) The Son of God.
You may not believe in Him but He believes in you.
It is certain that Mr Hitchens now knows whether he was right or wrong. He may have repented; I hope so but it seem unlikely that he would do so after becoming so well known for atheism.
You seem to be under the impression that hell does not presently exist. Have you considered Mark 9:43-48?
per wikipedia re ~ Significance to the Canon of the Bible
The significance of the [Dead Sea] scrolls relates in a large part to the field of textual criticism and how accurately the Bible has been transcribed over time. Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic texts dating to 10th century CE such as the Aleppo Codex.
The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back a millennium to the 2nd century BCE. Before this discovery, the earliest extant manuscripts of the Old Testament were in Greek in manuscripts such as Codex Vaticanus Graecus 1209 and Codex Sinaiticus.
The Bible record was complete within less than 100 years after Christ. The Catholic church has been in existence since about 300 AD. BTW I feel compelled to reply and/or post when fact-checking fails.
Oh you must be the exception then too. If I just accepted all of my Christian beliefs purely on faith, with no investigation, no facts then the atheists on FR would have a field day.
With that remark you disqualify 52 states around the globe (perhaps more) both for legitimacy and sanity. On top of that, approx 30% of our own population would like to add America to that List of Infamy (and who knows how many more nations of Europe).
For such a State has transgressed a firm bound of reality, which stipulates that States are creatures of men, not of Nature; thus men, being "natural-born," so to speak, cannot be "creatures of the State." (For "Nature" comes first)
Yup. Thats the reasoning.
A very merry and blessed Christmas, and a happy, healthy, prosperous New Year!!!
Yes, to all. And as a little fellow named Tim observed a long time ago (or so the story goes), God bless us . . . everyone.
I don’t need saving. I live a perfectly decent and respectable life. I do my job, I pay my bills, I obey the law, I don’t litter, and I take care of my cats. I’ll always do no less and I will never do any more. If that is not enough, screw it. And now I am really done with this conversation. I will never ask forgiveness from some figment of your imagination for my unimaginable nerve in having been born human. If there’s a God, my only thought about him is that he needs to take better care of his creatures. But likely there is not one, and that is why this world is as it is. That was my opinion 20 years ago, that was my opinion when this thread began, that is my opinion despite the writings of all the ambitious young men of Judea, that is my opinion despite the editing of the ambitious men of Rome, and nothing you ever say will change it. We atheists cannot be bullied into your dogma. Live with it.
The funny thing about this silly broad “A Perfect lady” is that she has repeatedly said that she’s “done” and that she finds people irritating and just wants to be left alone, but she’s still here. Sheesh, get lost already.
It’s amazing how powerful that female desire to get in the “last word” is.
Well at least the last time it was presented more as opinion than some more crazy ‘facts’.
Plus I think there must be some doubt otherwise why ask all the questions - at one point even getting upset that I didn’t answer them in my very next post.
I wish I had the time to respond in detail to your well researched and well written posts. However, my schedule this week as well as the holiday has my online time limited to only a few minutes.
I don't think that I ever used the words "separation of church and state". And if I did, it would certainly be in the way Jefferson thought of the concept rather than the way that, say, Richard Dawkins does.
What I was trying to get at is this: for 1300+ years, Christianity had a position of unchallenged dominance throughout Europe. Yet it was only in the aftermath of the Thirty Years War and the Glorious Revolution of 1688 that we began to see individual liberty of conscience become a value which societies felt obliged to respect.
This leads me to the conclusion that even if a Judeo-Christian culture is necessary for liberty to thrive, that culture is not in itself sufficient.
Opening up the question: what is the required additive??
And a blessed Christmas to you and yours...
NS
The trilemma is as shopworn an argument as is Pascal's wager, and likewise has been successfully disputed a score of times.
I know you can do better than that.
There are a few fundamentalists here whom I simply refuse to respond to, because we just wind up insulting each other to no avail.
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