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Errant Bullet Travels 1.5 Miles, Kills Amish Girl
WLWT ^ | 12:01 pm EST December 20, 2011 | WLWT

Posted on 12/20/2011 9:38:28 AM PST by TSgt

FREDERICKSBURG, Ohio -- An Ohio sheriff says a man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle accidentally shot and killed a 15-year-old Amish girl driving a horse-drawn buggy more than a mile away.

Holmes County Sheriff Timothy Zimmerly said Tuesday that the accident occurred Thursday night when a man fired his loaded rifle to clean it. He says the victim, Rachel Yoder of Fredericksburg, was nearly 1.5 miles away when she was shot in the head.

No charges have been filed.

Yoder was shot while traveling to her home in adjacent Wayne County, between Columbus and Akron. She was riding alone after attending a Christmas party for employees, most under 18 years old, who work at an Amish produce farm.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Ohio
KEYWORDS: amish; banglist; bullet; crime; ohio; rachelyoder; shooting; yoder
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To: mamelukesabre
someone is ignorant of black powder

What gives it away, the fact that they're rebuking you by referencing a television show or the fact that they did so sincerely and fully believing that what they see on television is in any way, shape, form or fashion a reflection of the truth?

I learned quick, fast and in a hurry that TV programming only has a passing acquaintance with the Truth and then only enough to attempt to discredit it; the print media is even worse, especially those who claim to be "unbiased" and "factual".

51 posted on 12/20/2011 10:09:48 AM PST by Avalon Hussar
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

Exactly.


52 posted on 12/20/2011 10:09:56 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: mamelukesabre; Eric in the Ozarks

Don’t forget that buffalo hunter William Dixon killed a Comanche warrior at 1,500 yards with an aimed shot during the Second Battle of Adobe Walls while using a black powder Sharps buffalo rifle.


53 posted on 12/20/2011 10:10:14 AM PST by Stonewall Jackson (Democrats: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.")
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To: TSgt

I'm sure he knew that all guns are always loaded.

That did not help however.

NRA Gun Safety Rules will keep you safer :

Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction

Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot

Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use

NRA T/C CRSO

54 posted on 12/20/2011 10:10:45 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius

no. There is a plastic sabot


55 posted on 12/20/2011 10:10:57 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: TSgt

The Mythbusters did an episode on free falling bullets. IIRC, they concluded that a bullet shot straight up would not be lethal on a free fall trajectory, but, I believe they did conclude that a bullet returning to the earth in a normal trajectory could be lethal. The primary difference being a free fall bullet would be tumbling and have less velocity where as a bullet returning on trajectory would likely still be spinning and have greater velocity.

Still, in this case, I suspect we may hear more to this story. It seems too improbable to me for a black powder projectile, even a sabot, to carry this far. Suppose the wind would need factored in, but still....


56 posted on 12/20/2011 10:12:01 AM PST by IamConservative ("The ability to speak eloquently is not to be confused with having something to say." - MP Hart)
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To: PowderMonkey

plastic sabots on the rifled ones.


57 posted on 12/20/2011 10:13:50 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: DPMD
And firing a rifle to clean it?

Maybe times have changed, but I was taught that firing a rifle requires it to be cleaned. To think of all that time I could have saved...

You, like most of us, were taught how to clean a breach-loading rifle. Muzzleloaders are a whole different beast and can't be cleaned in the same way a breach-loader can be cleaned.

58 posted on 12/20/2011 10:13:50 AM PST by Avalon Hussar
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To: mylife

Believe me, I’m reading every single comment, trying to sort all this out. It’s amazing the level of expertise FReepers bring to such subjects.

I still find it hard to believe the guy fired in the air, or whatever, w’out knowing where the round might go. I was raised by a huge, massive, mega-gun loving/owning father, and he would have kicked this guy’s butt so bad he’d need pillows to sit down on for a month.


59 posted on 12/20/2011 10:15:33 AM PST by Fantasywriter
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To: TSgt
I call BS. The round will drop a LOT over 1.5 mi, and will lose a lot of its speed. Further, a muzzle-loader does not have the muzzle velocity of a modern rifle. (1300-1800fps compared to 3400-4400 for most modern rifles)

As always, a news article about a firearm is woefully lacking in information.

60 posted on 12/20/2011 10:15:44 AM PST by Teacher317 ('Tis time to fear when tyrants seem to kiss.)
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To: Stonewall Jackson; mamelukesabre; Eric in the Ozarks
Don’t forget that buffalo hunter William Dixon killed a Comanche warrior at 1,500 yards with an aimed shot during the Second Battle of Adobe Walls while using a black powder Sharps buffalo rifle.

I wasn't aware that a Sharps Rifle was a Muzzle-loader, I thought it was a breech-loading black powder cartridge rifle. If that's the case, then I'd say we're still dealing with apples and oranges here.

61 posted on 12/20/2011 10:17:38 AM PST by Avalon Hussar
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To: PowderMonkey

Someone brought me a pistol that had sat for years loaded. I made a grease fitting with the same threads as the nipple and shoved the load out with a grease gun.


62 posted on 12/20/2011 10:18:14 AM PST by CrazyIvan (Obama's birth certificate was found stapled to Soros's receipt.)
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To: IamConservative

this is a black powder firearm. If it is a brown bess firing a 3/4” lead ball, it is probably lethal in freefall. If it is a ten gauge black powder shotgun firing a .775” diameter lead ball, it is probably lethal in freefall.


63 posted on 12/20/2011 10:19:04 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: mamelukesabre

My friends who play with front stuffers (flint lock Hawkens guns) don’t use plastic sabots (they’re purists).


64 posted on 12/20/2011 10:20:14 AM PST by PowderMonkey (WILL WORK FOR AMMO)
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To: Fantasywriter

Some of the worst offenders of gun basics that I have seen are Cops.

Its amazing that some people can be so stupid.
I saw one ahole shooting in the river with a rifle upsream toward a bridge.
I called him on it and he declared he was a Cop and he knew what he was doing “I’m shooting the water, not the bridge!”
I said have you ever skipped a stone numbnuts?


65 posted on 12/20/2011 10:20:42 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: CrazyIvan

Hydraulics! Smart!


66 posted on 12/20/2011 10:21:57 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Pearls Before Swine

I agree. I don’t think it would be able to travel that far. It seems it would arc and lose a great deal of power before going that far.
I find this unbelievable.


67 posted on 12/20/2011 10:22:35 AM PST by Mortrey (Impeach President Soros)
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To: PowderMonkey

then they use a cloth patch.

same difference.


68 posted on 12/20/2011 10:23:05 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: PowderMonkey
People who use black powder "front stuffers" (muzzle loaders) used to have only one way to clear the weapon if loaded: firing it.

And if you forget to put a powder charge in behind your ball?

There has always been a way to unload a muzzle loader without firing. It's called a worm. It screws onto the end of your ramrod and you use it to pull the ball.


69 posted on 12/20/2011 10:24:41 AM PST by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius; mamelukesabre

A patched round ball does not have rifling marks - the marks are on the patch that drops off a short distance in front o the rifle.

A saboted round also does not have rifling marks - marks are on the sabot just like the patched round ball.

A slug round operates on the minnie ball principle and will have the rifling marks.


70 posted on 12/20/2011 10:28:18 AM PST by PeteB570 ( Islam is the sea in which the Terrorist Shark swims. The deeper the sea the larger the shark.)
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To: Retired COB

Uhhh... All bullets drop with the same acceleration (9.8m/s^2). In fact, neglecting air resistance, if you fired a bullet horizontally and dropped another simultaneously, they would hit the ground at the same time. If your rifle is about 4’10” off the ground and horizontal (1.5 meters), ANY bullet you fire will hit the ground about .55s after it is fired (once again neglecting air resistance, sloped ground, etc.). The primary difference in their ballistic performance, aside from air resistance, is the horizontal speed (which determines how far they get in that .55s).

Now, obviously, we can’t ignore air resistance. But when you consider that (just doing the math) a muzzle-loader with a muzzle velocity of about 420 m/s held at 45 degrees from horizontal has a theoretical maximum range of ~57,500 ft (or 10.8 miles), even if we divide that distance by 4 or 5 to account for air resistance, we can still get 1.5 miles pretty easily...


71 posted on 12/20/2011 10:28:31 AM PST by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwaet! Lar bith maest hord, sothlice!)
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To: Stonewall Jackson

Yes, who could forget that!

(At least I know what the battle of Adobe Walls was, where and who.)


72 posted on 12/20/2011 10:30:25 AM PST by SuzyQue (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.)
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To: Cicero

I found myself wondering if a jilted teenage “suitor” had been riding along...got out...shot her...and walked away.

The suspicious mind does wander...

=8-|


73 posted on 12/20/2011 10:30:38 AM PST by =8 mrrabbit 8=
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To: TSgt

Mile and a half? Sorry...do not believe this....manslaughter or negligible homicide or something similar should be what happens.


74 posted on 12/20/2011 10:30:52 AM PST by Ecliptic
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To: Yo-Yo; PowderMonkey

This is a patch puller not a ball puller.

75 posted on 12/20/2011 10:31:10 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: verga
There’s no way to know the shot came from THAT firearm. Someone needs to watch an episode or two of CSI

And as someone who has shot firearms all my life, I am telling you that CSI is BULLSH*T if they portray "bullet-matching" techniques as applicable to muzzle-loading arms. It is hard enough to get a bullet fragment from a rifle to match the barrel; usually the only recourse is neutron activation or other mass spectrographic technique.

Furthermore: I doubt most people on FR even realize that black powder arms ARE NOT FIREARMS, at least by the FedGov's definition.

76 posted on 12/20/2011 10:31:10 AM PST by backwoods-engineer (Any politician who holds that the state accords rights is an oathbreaker and an "enemy... domestic.")
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
"Who in the Hell "cleans" a gun by firing it?"

Only people who shoot black powder firearms.

The gun MUST be fired before the bore can be cleaned...a messy operation.

77 posted on 12/20/2011 10:31:37 AM PST by diogenes ghost
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To: IamConservative

NRA did a much more exhaustive study during WWII. Bullets fired straight up,, something like 80% tumble and fall presenting very little hazard. The other 20% maintain their spin and return to earth base first,, still spinning,, and are deadly.

And anything fired from around 45 degrees angle,, returns to earth at etreme range, very close to muzzle velocity.


78 posted on 12/20/2011 10:32:44 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Yo-Yo

The worm is used for cleaning - and retrieving lost patches - not for bullet pulling.

Here is the screw.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/115714/cva-black-powder-bullet-puller-50-caliber


79 posted on 12/20/2011 10:33:06 AM PST by PeteB570 ( Islam is the sea in which the Terrorist Shark swims. The deeper the sea the larger the shark.)
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To: TSgt

I once saw an article in a gun magazine on maximum range of bullets. The only one I remember was the .22LR would not quite make a mile despite the warnings on the box, also that most pistol bullets had a very short maximum range.

I am pretty sure tho that some of the big heavy lead bullets had a surprisingly long range. I don’t doubt that the story is correct. A lot of things affect range such as wind direction and speed.


80 posted on 12/20/2011 10:34:01 AM PST by yarddog
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To: PeteB570; Anitius Severinus Boethius; mamelukesabre
A patched round ball does not have rifling marks - the marks are on the patch that drops off a short distance in front o the rifle

My shot balls always had the rifling marks left by the patch.

81 posted on 12/20/2011 10:35:54 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)

In case you want to do the math for yourself:

Vertical Velocity = Muzzle Velocity * sin (angle)
Horizontal Velocity = Muzzle Velocity * cos (angle)

Time to reach ground = 2 * Vertical Velocity / Acceleration of gravity (9.8 m/s^2)

Distance traveled during time in flight = Horizontal Velocity * Time to reach ground

I’m sure someone on this thread can give us some decent estimates of the rate of velocity lost due to air resistance, and we can recalculate. I don’t think it’s that far-fetched...


82 posted on 12/20/2011 10:36:14 AM PST by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwaet! Lar bith maest hord, sothlice!)
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To: Avalon Hussar

“I thought it was a breech-loading black powder cartridge rifle. If that’s the case, then I’d say we’re still dealing with apples and oranges here.”

Whether loaded at the breech or barrel, what counts is the size of the black powder charge. A black powder cartridge rifle has no more potential power than a muzzleloader using a similar charge. It’s just more convenient to load and carry ammo.


83 posted on 12/20/2011 10:36:14 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Retired COB

i dont think those ranges are right for the 300wby. mine can actually hit a target at 800 yards, on the range, and i am not aiming up anywhere near 45 degrees. so that gun, my guess, would easily fire miles. i heard 7 miles in hunter safety but dont know if thats right.


84 posted on 12/20/2011 10:36:16 AM PST by beebuster2000
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To: Stonewall Jackson

1500 yards is about 3400 feet short of a mile and a half.


85 posted on 12/20/2011 10:36:48 AM PST by Ratman83
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To: mylife

My .50 (actually .495) is air powered.
See Quackenbush Air Guns...


86 posted on 12/20/2011 10:37:10 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (Gimme that old time fossil fuel.)
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To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)

no they can’t.

You need to know the ballistic coefficient of the projectile.


87 posted on 12/20/2011 10:39:02 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: Stonewall Jackson

1,500 yards is a little less than a mile.


88 posted on 12/20/2011 10:39:07 AM PST by Ecliptic
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To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)

Note: all values for my equations should be in meters and seconds... one inch = 2.54 cm


89 posted on 12/20/2011 10:39:07 AM PST by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwaet! Lar bith maest hord, sothlice!)
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To: Stonewall Jackson; mamelukesabre; Eric in the Ozarks
During the Civil War Union and Confederate snipers made numerous 1000 yard kills and several 1500 yard kill with highly accurate black powder rifles.

The elevation required for controlled, accurate 3/4 mile shots was not extreme, and the lethality of the projectile at double that distance is pretty much certain. Sadly this indeed may be an idiot accident.

90 posted on 12/20/2011 10:39:23 AM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it. (plagiarized))
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To: Retired COB
As an aside, I've seen a lot of Amish people over the years, but have not ever seen a buggy being driven by one of their females....just sayin'

Amish women, especially younger women and girls, often drive buggies alone - it's not at all uncommon among the Ohio Amish communities.

91 posted on 12/20/2011 10:40:34 AM PST by TonyInOhio
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To: mamelukesabre
this is a black powder firearm. If it is a brown bess firing a 3/4” lead ball, it is probably lethal in freefall.

My reckoning was that if you are out farting around with a black powder rifle now, you are most likely whitetail deer hunting. Everyone I know that hunts deer with blackpowder uses a .50 Saboted, conical shaped projectile.

In much of the midwest, deer can only be hunted with bow, shotgun, muzzle loader and some pistols to avoid this very thing from happening. Population is too dense to use large center fire rifle loads.

92 posted on 12/20/2011 10:42:06 AM PST by IamConservative ("The ability to speak eloquently is not to be confused with having something to say." - MP Hart)
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To: mamelukesabre
There’s no way to know the shot came from THAT firearm.

I imagine the Mythbusters crew felt the same way about their cannon.

93 posted on 12/20/2011 10:42:16 AM PST by eddie willers
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To: mamelukesabre
Actually, the cross-section of the projectile will give a pretty good maximum case (most bullets will actually have less air resistance than that due to shape and spin). I'd settle for the maximum air resistance, because I'd still be willing to bet it'd clear a mile-and-a-half...
94 posted on 12/20/2011 10:42:16 AM PST by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwaet! Lar bith maest hord, sothlice!)
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To: Avalon Hussar

The Sharps is a breech loader, but it is still a black powder rifle. During the 1874 Creedmore Match, the US and Irish marksmen were regularly hitting the bullseye at 1,000 yards (the furthest target available at the match), with one American scoring thirty-six bullseyes and nine centers with his forty-five shots for an amazing 171 out of 180 points possible.


95 posted on 12/20/2011 10:42:55 AM PST by Stonewall Jackson (Democrats: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.")
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
That's a serious "BB" gun ☺
96 posted on 12/20/2011 10:44:00 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: TSgt

It may be a dumb accident but he still killed the girl through his reckless conduct.

He needs to be held accountable in some way.

This is a “depraved-heart murder” due to his gross negligence.


97 posted on 12/20/2011 10:45:15 AM PST by Iron Munro ("Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight he'll just kill you." John Steinbeck)
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To: mylife

It’s unusual, to say the least.
4,000 foot pounds of knock down.


98 posted on 12/20/2011 10:47:03 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (Gimme that old time fossil fuel.)
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To: mamelukesabre
Nope.

There will be microtagent residue imbedded in the base of the bullet, imprints of the patch (rifling traces on the ball would identify the land count and twist even through a patch), if it was a Minié ball, rifling can be read out directly as from any other firearm, if it was a sabot round the sabot will have a unique impression of the ball and an equally unique set of rifling/barrel marks, the rod would leave a unique impression on the ball, the trace elements in the lead can narrow the bullet down to a single melt batch/casting pour, trace DNA could identify anyone who ever touched the bullet, there might be traces of marks from a resizing die or the original casting mold, residual lubricants might be unique to that shooter's preferences and usage history on that fire arm.

I'm pretty sure those skilled in the art can add to my list.

What have you got to support your assertion that "There’s no way to know the shot came from THAT firearm."

Please, do enlighten me.

99 posted on 12/20/2011 10:47:40 AM PST by null and void (Day 1064 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)

football shaped projectiles will tumble when they fall below a certain velocity. Tumbling increases drag by an order of magnitude at least.


100 posted on 12/20/2011 10:48:35 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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