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Men who openly carried guns at Culver's accept settlement(WI)
Wisconsin State Journal ^ | 20 December, 2011 | ED TRELEVEN

Posted on 12/20/2011 5:23:13 PM PST by marktwain

A group of men who drew police attention for openly carrying guns at a Far East Side restaurant last year on Tuesday accepted a $10,000 offer from the city of Madison to settle their federal civil rights lawsuit against the city and a group of police officers.

The five men, members of Wisconsin Carry Inc., were ticketed for disorderly conduct on Sept. 18, 2010, after police were called to Culver's, 4301 East Towne Blvd., about a group of men with guns at an outdoor table. The tickets were later dismissed.

Two of the men initially refused to identify themselves to police and were handcuffed, searched and arrested. They were cited for obstructing police, but those citations were rescinded.

The city made its offer to settle the case on Dec. 12, and Wisconsin Carry, through its lawyer, John Monroe, agreed to accept the offer on Tuesday.

In its offer, the city does not admit to any wrongdoing. Attorney Catherine Rottier, representing the city, said the offer was made simply to settle the case without having to spend a lot more money.

But Monroe interpreted the offer differently.

"They can say they're not liable all they want to," Monroe said. "The result is exactly the same.

"I think it's clear they recognized there was a problem with their actions," he said.

Madison police spokesman Joel DeSpain said police still encourage citizens to call if they have concerns about someone armed with a gun, "but depending on the circumstance we might not make contact with an individual."

A legal update for officers by Capt. Vic Wahl indicates that people simply carrying guns cannot be charged with disorderly conduct under the new state concealed carry law. But they could be charged if criminal or malicious intent is shown,

(Excerpt) Read more at host.madison.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: banglist; madison; opencarry; wi
Nice to see some penalty for police misconduct.
1 posted on 12/20/2011 5:23:17 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

The penalty was paltry and the taxpayers paid, not the ignoramuses who broke the law. I would have liked to see the case proceed in federal court. If a jury finds for the plaintiff and assess punitive damages the individual defendants, not the govt entity, have to pay the punitive damages. That is what gets their attention.


2 posted on 12/20/2011 5:28:35 PM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: Scotsman will be Free

Absolutely! I am so tired of taxpayers paying for the stupidity of police officers.

We really need a National Carry Day, until everyone gets the idea that we have a RIGHT to keep & bear arms.


3 posted on 12/20/2011 5:40:02 PM PST by Twotone (Marte Et Clypeo)
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To: marktwain; Hunton Peck; Diana in Wisconsin; TaMoDee; P from Sheb; Shady; DonkeyBonker; ...

Wisconsin Open Carry ping!

Send me a FREEP Mail if you want on, or off, this list. I’m minding it for Diana in Wisconsin.


4 posted on 12/20/2011 5:54:48 PM PST by afraidfortherepublic
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To: Twotone
Absolutely! I am so tired of taxpayers paying for the stupidity of police officers.

The city officials, such as the mayor and city council, hold these police officer's leashes.

The taxpayers elect the city officials.

Therefore, if you want the officers to behave differently, elect city officials who comply with the taxpayers' wishes.

Then the police officers will have to behave like police officers instead of goons with guns and badges.

5 posted on 12/20/2011 5:55:48 PM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Government should be afraid of the people)
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To: Twotone

Oh man! A National Open Carry Day. I would strap my 7.5” Redhawk up on my cowboy belt that hold 35 .44Mags, put on my boots and go out on the town.


6 posted on 12/20/2011 5:56:02 PM PST by fuente
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To: fuente
Oh man! A National Open Carry Day. I would strap my 7.5” Redhawk up on my cowboy belt that hold 35 .44Mags, put on my boots and go out on the town.

Sounds good to me. A special day for open carry would be good, but I would not mind the habit catching on for Bill of Rights day or Independence Day!

7 posted on 12/20/2011 6:02:23 PM PST by marktwain (In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)
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To: Twotone
challenging what was then the Madison police policy

The problem with policy is that sometimes policy doesn't match the law
and allows police to harass.

8 posted on 12/20/2011 6:05:19 PM PST by MaxMax
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To: Twotone

I think what would even be better is if we had a 2nd Amendment holiday where we celebrate it by going to the range, learning the importance of the 2nd Amendment, and have a barbecue.

I’ll add that to my 2nd Amendment wish list of

1. a national Constitutional carry,
2. and legal ownership of full-auto firearms like regular firearms.


9 posted on 12/20/2011 6:08:38 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: fuente

GA is now considering a bill to allow open carry or concealed carry with no permit. Right now you have to have a CCL to open carry a hand gun. Hopefully it will go through.


10 posted on 12/20/2011 6:09:13 PM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: MaxMax

But police are there to uphold the LAW, not policy. If a town decides their policy outweighs the constitution, then THEY should shoulder the expense of irate citizens contesting their stupidity. And the police who go along with it.


11 posted on 12/20/2011 6:12:27 PM PST by Twotone (Marte Et Clypeo)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

If we could only get it nation wide. I carry almost all of the time now, but concealed and usually another in the car. I only carry the big iron when I go hoggin’


12 posted on 12/20/2011 6:16:26 PM PST by fuente
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To: Twotone
I agree, and policy is set by the the city. An example would be LA
not towing vehicles of illegal mexicans without a DL for being mexican,
while legal citizens without a DL are not exempt.
13 posted on 12/20/2011 6:21:16 PM PST by MaxMax
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To: marktwain

It took FOURTEEN months for each of these men to get $2,000 in return for being kidnapped at gunpoint by armed men unfamiliar with the laws they’re paid to enforce..?

Imagine you pointed a pistol at a police-officer, then took him to another location (i.e. kidnapped him).

What would happen to you? Just lose your job?

MUCH worse would happen to you. Yet NONE of these men lost their jobs and it’s VERY likely they’ll do EXACTLY the same thing, next time.

They were held at GUN POINT, but more than 1 year later each of them get an amount of money equal to the cost of a PERSONAL COMPUTER.


14 posted on 12/20/2011 6:46:45 PM PST by gaijin
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To: Scotsman will be Free

I would not accept the settlement. I would take it all the way up and I would sue the police officers too personally. America needs to do the extreme to defend our rights.


15 posted on 12/20/2011 7:40:32 PM PST by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
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To: gaijin

That must be some computer -
I can build a top notch gaming machine for <$600.

You are correct about equal enforcement.


16 posted on 12/20/2011 7:54:03 PM PST by Eldon Tyrell
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To: marktwain

Ah, whoops!

Only 2 were arrested, not 5, sorry. And I don’t know it was at gun-point, I only suspected it, as it’s Madison, Wisconsin.

I was wrong, there.

And it could be the cops were just following insane policy by the city?

Should they pay each of the 2, say $100k, or more? Yes —even more.


17 posted on 12/20/2011 8:25:16 PM PST by gaijin
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To: fuente

Yes we carry everywhere also. My fiancee’ packs in the house too. We are never unarmed. My Mom’s house across the street from us got broken into about 6 mos ago. The young cop that came out to investigate told us he also keeps his weapon on in the house.


18 posted on 12/20/2011 8:36:05 PM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: marktwain

I faintly remember some Freepers running their yaps about these being trouble makers. Am I wrong about that?


19 posted on 12/20/2011 9:01:51 PM PST by ExpatGator (I hate Illinois Nazis!)
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To: ExpatGator
I faintly remember some Freepers running their yaps about these being trouble makers. Am I wrong about that?

Nope. Lots of bootlickers here. Fortunately, they are becoming more, and more outnumbered as time goes on.

20 posted on 12/20/2011 9:54:29 PM PST by zeugma (Those of us who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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To: Scotsman will be Free

“The penalty was paltry and the taxpayers paid, not the ignoramuses who broke the law”

Just curious who you were calling ignoramuses because the citizens in question were legally carrying the firearms and were not the cause of the disturbance.


21 posted on 12/21/2011 5:25:03 AM PST by DonkeyBonker
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To: DonkeyBonker

Read the rest of the post. I’m sure you’ll figure it out.


22 posted on 12/21/2011 7:11:06 AM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: Scotsman will be Free
The penalty was paltry and the taxpayers paid, not the ignoramuses who broke the law.

Yep. But if it happens again, the state racketeering law kicks in, and both the City and its PD officers and supervisors can be declared an organized crime group:

946.82  Definitions. In ss. 946.80 to 946.88:

(1) "Commission of a crime" means being concerned in the commission of a crime under s. 939.05.

946.82(2) (2) "Enterprise" means any sole proprietorship, partnership, limited liability company, corporation, business trust, union organized under the laws of this state or other legal entity or any union not organized under the laws of this state, association or group of individuals associated in fact although not a legal entity. "Enterprise" includes illicit and licit enterprises and governmental and other entities.

(3) "Pattern of racketeering activity" means engaging in at least 3 incidents of racketeering activity that have the same or similar intents, results, accomplices, victims or methods of commission or otherwise are interrelated by distinguishing characteristics, provided at least one of the incidents occurred after April 27, 1982 and that the last of the incidents occurred within 7 years after the first incident of racketeering activity. Acts occurring at the same time and place which may form the basis for crimes punishable under more than one statutory provision may count for only one incident of racketeering activity.

(4) "Racketeering activity" means any activity specified in 18 USC 1961 (1) in effect as of April 27, 1982, or the attempt, conspiracy to commit, or commission of any of the felonies specified in: chs. 945 and 961, subch. V of ch. 551, and ss. 49.49, 134.05, 139.44 (1), 180.0129, 181.0129, 185.825, 201.09 (2), 215.12, 221.0625, 221.0636, 221.0637, 221.1004, 553.41 (3) and (4), 553.52 (2), 940.01, 940.19 (4) to (6), 940.20, 940.201, 940.203, 940.21, 940.30, 940.302 (2), 940.305, 940.31, 941.20 (2) and (3), 941.26, 941.28, 941.298, 941.31, 941.32, 942.09, 943.01 (2), (2d), or (2g), 943.011, 943.012, 943.013, 943.02, 943.03, 943.04, 943.05, 943.06, 943.10, 943.20 (3) (bf) to (e), 943.201, 943.203, 943.23 (1g), (2) and (3), 943.24 (2), 943.27, 943.28, 943.30, 943.32, 943.34 (1) (bf), (bm), and (c), 943.38, 943.39, 943.40, 943.41 (8) (b) and (c), 943.50 (4) (bf), (bm), and (c), 943.60, 943.70, 943.76, 943.81, 943.82, 943.83, 943.84, 943.85, 943.86, 943.87, 943.88, 943.89, 943.90, 944.21 (5) (c) and (e), 944.32, 944.33 (2), 944.34, 945.03 (1m), 945.04 (1m), 945.05 (1), 945.08, 946.10, 946.11, 946.12, 946.13, 946.31, 946.32 (1), 946.48, 946.49, 946.61, 946.64, 946.65, 946.72, 946.76, 946.79, 947.015, 948.05, 948.051, 948.08, 948.12, and 948.30.

History: 1981 c. 280; 1983 a. 438; 1985 a. 104; 1985 a. 236 s. 15; 1987 a. 266 s. 5; 1987 a. 332, 348, 349, 403; 1989 a. 121, 303; 1991 a. 32, 39, 189; 1993 a. 50, 92, 94, 112, 280, 441, 491; 1995 a. 133, 249, 336, 448; 1997 a. 35, 79, 101, 140, 143, 252; 1999 a. 9, 150; 2001 a. 16, 105, 109; 2003 a. 36, 321; 2005 a. 212; 2007 a. 116, 196; 2009 a. 180.

The definition of "pattern of racketeering" is not unconstitutionally vague. The definition of "enterprise" is discussed. State v. O'Connell, 179 Wis. 2d 598, 508 N.W.2d 23 (Ct. App. 1993).

Repeated use of illegally copied computer software did not constitute a pattern of racketeering. Management Computer Services v. Hawkins, 196 Wis. 2d 578, 539 N.W.2d 111 (Ct. App. 1995), 93-0140.

WOCCA does not require proof of intent or knowledge beyond that required for the underlying predicate offense. State v. Mueller, 201 Wis. 2d 121, 549 N.W.2d 455 (Ct. App. 1996), 93-3227.

The analysis for a "pattern of racketeering activity" under WOCCA is the same as under RICO. Brunswick Corp. v. E.A. Doyle Mfg. Co. 770 F. Supp. 1351 (1991).946.84  Penalties.

(1) Any person convicted of engaging in racketeering activity in violation of s. 946.83 is guilty of a Class E felony.

WOCA, 946.80 et seq

23 posted on 12/21/2011 1:34:21 PM PST by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: archy

I think that is a stretch. Ain’t gonna happen.


24 posted on 12/21/2011 2:00:52 PM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: Scotsman will be Free
I think that is a stretch. Ain’t gonna happen.

Indeed. Criminal prosecutions are far more commonplace. But if they do not occur, any enterprising attorney who wants his one-third share of a triple-damages settlement is free to go for it.

It's happened in neighboring Indiana to the tune of an 80-million plus lawsuit for the city of Hammond.

25 posted on 12/28/2011 1:47:41 PM PST by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: Scotsman will be Free
I think that is a stretch. Ain’t gonna happen.

Indeed. Criminal prosecutions are far more commonplace. But if they do not occur, any enterprising attorney who wants his one-third share of a triple-damages settlement is free to go for it.

It's happened in neighboring Indiana to the tune of an 80-million plus lawsuit for the city of Hammond.

26 posted on 12/28/2011 1:48:05 PM PST by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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