Posted on 12/21/2011 6:27:22 PM PST by SeekAndFind
Our Govt. is so corrupt it doesn't do the things it should because it is to busy doing unconstitutional and super-constitutional things.
How can you tell the difference between a job “lost” to China, and one “lost” to more advanced automation and robotics? How are those accounted for in your numbers? Just curious.
I am not disputing the job loss but it comes as the value of the output has held steady to increasing. Ask yourself why is the value of manufactured goods climbing while job losses accelerate?
Answer is: The US government penalizes hiring people through its laws and taxes. Every employee is a lawsuit waiting to happen, a tax burden, and adds the potential for union meddling. Add to that a tax system that adds to the complexity of hiring due to federal tax, ss tax, state tax, local, tax, school tax, unemployment insurance state, unemployment insurance federal, medicare tax, COBRA, shall I go on?
Want to start on the penalties for deploying capital in this country?
Bottom line is, if you are going to manufacture goods in this country you had better make sure it doesn’t involve many employees and that it yields a very high return on capital.
Again blame your government not China.
I'll answer your question but will you answer mine? What if we put a trade embargo on China and other countries? then won't we be able to make in the U.S. the 2 trillion dollars of products we import into the U.S. ever year? we can make 2 trillion dollars worth of more products here in the U.S. which will increase our wealth ,living standards, jobs etc.
“Ask yourself why is the value of manufactured goods climbing while job losses accelerate?”
That value is just inflation and overvalued Currency and they include mining and utilities in manufacturing to inflate the numbers. The dollar is overvalued. A worker in China makes 50 cents a n hour. You really think an American has 30 times a higher living standard than a Chinese person? So also a product an American produces costs 30 times more but that doesn't mean he is producing 30 times more.
China manipulates currency to keep the dollar high. That is just more globalist propaganda.If you look at manufacturing jobs in the U.S. in any way by percentage , total number , whatever , it is clear that U.S. manufacturing is disappearing.
These quotes are from a study that is linked below:
“Robert Scott calculates that 2.4 million American jobs were lost between 2001 and 2008 as a result of increased trade with China,
The paper shows that Chinese currency manipulation— which has kept the value of the Chinese yuan low even as its exports have surged–is a major factor behind the widespread job loss”
http://www.epi.org/publication/counting_the_jobs_lost_to_china/
China has stolen U.S. technology. And they manipulated currency so that they can pay workers 1/30th what U.S. workers make. They used our technology and our U.S. market to pillage , con ,destroy our jobs and our people. China is the enemy.
The U.S didn't trade with communist china for decades and we were on top of the world. There is nothing is some stupid free trade theory that says we have to trade with China .Just the simple fact that they stole and are stealing U.S. technology and intellectual property is enough to stop all trade with China as the U.S. had done for decades (not only China but USSR and Cuba too we didn't trade with).
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said on Thursday that China is holding to its decades-old strategy to steal American intellectual property, in a pointed statement reflecting U.S. officials' growing impatience with Beijing. "They China have made possible systematic stealing of intellectual property of American companies and have not been very aggressive to put in place the basic protections for property rights that every serious economy needs over time," Geithner told a forum in Washington. "We're seeing China continue to be very, very aggressive in a strategy they started several decades ago, which goes like this: you want to sell to our country, we want you to come produce here ... if you want to come produce here, you need to transfer your technology to us," Geithner said.
As president I would cut off all trade with China just because of the intellectual property they stole from us.I would do a trade embargo against China and guess what then we could actually make our own electronics and a million other products that we use: and that would increase our manufacturing jobs and factories by tenfold.
Ok maybe you “free traders” wouldn't want to trade with an intellectual property stealing China?
Private property is the foundation of capitalism. China steals, plunders private property, steals technology from U.S. companies, steals intellectual property from U.S. companies.. that in itself is enough not to trade with China.
Here is some evidence that China is stealing intellectual property from the U.S. etc. : Also they have manipulated currency and put up trade barriers.
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said on Thursday that China is holding to its decades-old strategy to steal American intellectual property, in a pointed statement reflecting U.S. officials’ growing impatience with Beijing.
“They China have made possible systematic stealing of intellectual property of American companies and have not been very aggressive to put in place the basic protections for property rights that every serious economy needs over time,” Geithner told a forum in Washington.
“We're seeing China continue to be very, very aggressive in a strategy they started several decades ago, which goes like this: you want to sell to our country, we want you to come produce here ... if you want to come produce here, you need to transfer your technology to us,” Geithner said.
Chinese currency is overvalued? Call your buddy Geithner, get your facts straight and try it again. Of course you have also quoted articles that say it is overvalued. You can count the jobs lost to China but were is your accounting of jobs created because of trade with China?
Yes the average US citizen has a SOL much higher, incredibly higher, than the average Chinese.
“So if we stop importing from China we can create manufacturing jobs in the U.S.”
“We” do not create anything. “We” are not being stolen from by the Chinese. When it comes to business and job creation the job creators are individuals and it is they who are stolen from. Maybe in a collective utopia ‘we” do all this. But for now individuals create jobs and thy do so in pursuit of their own interest. Our government has created huge hurdles against investment and job creation. Simply making china the bogey man will not work.
How do you propose to “bring back” all that iron and steel making capacity? Where will you get the money from? The reasons it left have now been added to and multiplied. Have you seen what it takes to build a new steel plant, coke ovens, refinery, or electric plant in this country? We get a few things now and then when our government grants special privileges and is granted the proper obeisance but our manufacturing is leaving and its not because of the Chinese.
Did you read the article? Do you see how small a percentage Chinese imports are in our economy? Are you going to ban trade everywhere to keep what we ban from going to other countries? Yes China steals and it is up to individual and the companies they own to decide if doing business with China is worth it or not. Why does Apple keep doing business in China? GM? GE?
I guess banning imports means no more imported oil so our oil prices will skyrocket, no more imported wood...oops their goes housing prices, we import most of our rare earth metals so their goes high tech manufacturing. But gee at least we can get back all of those jobs assembling furniture and painting cheap plastic figurines.
Of course we have effectively banned sugar imports. How has that worked out? Glad you saved a few jobs for the wealthy sugar growers so that we could decimate the far more valuable candy making industry?
Are you serious about debt? Its our government driving up debt with reckless spending and its the same government you wish to put in charge of eliminating all imports?
Individuals in the U.S can produce anything , the natural resources, land , labor etc. are endless in the U.S. and Alaska. We don't need to trade with a pirate named China that is destroying our manufacturing.
I'm for free markets, very few laws and very little government. However I'm for some government and some laws. And 2 laws that I am for is banning illegals and foreign manufactured products. Are you for allowing 2 billion people to come to the U.S. so that the government is not given that function of keeping them out?
We have to have some laws, private property laws, laws that protect intellectual property, laws that protect our individual rights etc. I'm for as much freedom and as little government as possible.
I think you are confusing stopping China who is in a trade war against the U.S. with growing government and loss of freedom which it is not. In a war government action is needed. And this is a serious war, in a way that Islam is waging a one way war against the U.S.A. so is China and other countries waging a one way economic war and a trade war against the U.S.A.
Plus we don't need huge government to ban China products. Just a simple law will do and random enforcement.Most businesses will comply with the law as most businesses comply with the millions of regulations they already do .But to me I agree with you that the millions of pages of regulations we have now are not needed and are damaging businesses and our country. But we do need the trade laws. I'm not sure but I'm sure there are currency laws etc. Are you advocating a lawless collection of individuals on this continent with no government. well we need some government and some laws like laws that protect the country against what, yes foreigners, like China militarily attacking the U.S. . most people would agree on that. but what most people don't see is that China is attacking the U.S. just that they are doing it by economic means and trade. It's still a war.
There is the rub: We can't have anarchy and no government , no laws . But we do need a minimal amount of laws and deciding on which ones are needed is where the rub is. Why can't we go back in time to 1890 and just use those laws. You are forgetting that Clinton created a huge new law the China free trad deal that is what is causing all these problems: And government is administering this Clinton law now.
If we made all those 400 billion worth of products here in the U.S.A. we would have a lot of our manufacturing base back.
I'm for a very limited government . But we need some government like a military and border enforcement.Notice that this government is charged with keeping foreign things out, foreign invaders ( an army) , and forging immigrants, and so there should be a law to keep out foreign manufactured products. People just don't realize how necessary manufacturing is to have good living standards , jobs and opportunity. I'm for the government almost completely leaving us and U.S. businesses alone except to enforce them not importing from other countries.
Are you for private property laws? Are you for laws against murder, illegal immigration, theft, assault, invasion of personal space? are you for a military, and keeping illegals out (border patrol?those I am for and are needed. a few others to but I'm not for big government. But I am for some government which I listed in this post . Just what government are you for?
Make no mistake you are for a HUGE all powerful government. and your comment about private property is a joke, right? Your respect for my property ends at my right to dispose of it as I see fit which includes using my property to purchase foreign goods.
What will it take to enforce your ban? You will need a very large army to prevent foreign goods from entering here. You have no problem telling me I cannot spend my money as I see fit. You will empower the unions and politicians while causing the rest of us to buy overpriced, backwards, and inferior goods (think 1970s Big Three). I see you’re now referring to foreign manufactured goods instead of imports. So I guess all that foreign oil, timber, sugar, coffee, tea, minerals, etc.. is alright by you? Maybe you don’t get this very basic economic fact, that demand is elastic and will expand and contract based on many things but the chief of which is price. There may be a market for a made in China widget at $1 but that market doesn’t exist for the same widget made in the US for $2. The widget isn’t worth $2 and the US cannot make it for $1. Here is the rub...that $1 widget may have provided jobs to the designers, engineers, salespeople, and warehouse workers who went to China to have their product manufactured.
Far fetched you think? Then you need to examine how Apple operates.
You understand the US still has the worlds leading manufacturing base. Employment is dropping that is a fact. so how do you propose to stop US manufacturers from continuing to automate and eliminate the need for people? once you ban imports are you then going to ban automation?
After the unions and companies drive up the price of iron and steel (or once imports are banned will you institute wage and price laws so as to keep process reasonable?) how much do you think appliances and cars will cost?
After your ban is implemented you realize that we will not be able to export, right? Those sneaky Chinese cannot spend dollars they don’t have. So kiss a big chunk of our Ag business goodbye along with most of CAT and Boeing.
That not trading with China during the cold war didn't require an army to not trade with China. People don't realize that that is all we have to do to get living standards rising again: to return to the cold war.Our living standards are falling , and what semblance of civilized living standards we have is financed with huge debt. The U.S. will collapse worse than Greece is.
And U.S. manufacturing grew during that time.
Now the U.S. manufacturing is disappearing: look at the tremendous job losses.
China stole our technology , our own market in the U.S., using our capital and our technology. So much so that in 1990 99% of China's people were peasants. Now 20 years later after ripping off the U.S.A. the middle class is exploding in China, China has 10 times more workers in manufacturing than the U.S. , rising living standards and is lending the U.S. trillions , while U.S. living standards are falling and debt is skyrocketing by trillions per year( government debt and consumer debt).
I'm for returning to the cold war when the U.S. living standards were rising.
I'm for eliminating the EPA, IRS, government schools, DEA, TSA and most government agencies and most laws. China is waging a war against the U.S. everything good has gown down in the U.S.A, job growth , living standards etc. since the U.S. signed the Clinton free trade deal with China. that deal has to be done away with and
We don't have to allow a foreign army to invade us with million of troops that's why we need a big government army.
You want no army?
We , in the U.S. don't have to allow 2 billion people who want to immigrate to the U.S.A. it seems you do. and you call that freedom.
Similarly don't have to allow a foreign country the size of China to invade the U.S. with trillions worth of factory and job destroying “products” that are destroying the U.S.A.
We have to stop trading with China because China has stolen U.S. technology and because China has manipulated currency , enacted trade barriers all which has caused great harm to this country and Americans. You say you are for freedom.Well China is destroying the last chance for freedom in the world a country called the U.S.A.
But most of all I am for stopping trade with China BECAUSE China is destroying our country economically.
And many countries are copying what China did to the U.S.A.
The U.S. is a country with borders. It can ban anything , be it illegals , a foreign army , or a foreign army of products from crossing the border. Using your "argument" then the U.S. is acting against freedom by not allowing all who want to immigrate to the U.S.A to come here. That's ridiculous. ditto for allowing any country that wants to dump products in the U.S.A. . If you want to buy China products so much then move to China . no one is forcing you to stay here. You say you are for freedom but you are helping communist China destroy the last hope of freedom in the world , the U.S.A. . It's obvious the U.S. is declining rapidly( look at our huge debt skyrocketing). You think communist China which is a dictatorship is for freedom? Anyone buying china products or defending trade with China is helping China destroy the U.S.A which is the last hope for freedom in the world.
U.S. living standards, wealth , power etc rose throughout U.S. history. It is only after starting this trade with China that U.S. living standards started to decline. We used to be the largest creditor nation now the U.S. is the biggest debtor nation, living standards are declining,we have no jobs etc. The U.S. had most of the technology, and technology is increasing at an exponential rate but still U.S. living standards are going down.
We have a border and we need a border.
The U.S. doesn't have to trade with China as the U.S. didn't trade with China for all of the cold war, decades of it.
The leftists/statists started this free trade propaganda to destroy U.S. borders and so sovereignty.
China is waging a trade war against the U.S. So anyone supporting this trade war is helping to destroy the U.S. economically and U.S. borders.
You are a globalist.
The U.S. would rising now if we didn't trade with the rest of the world and our borders and sovereignty would be intact. The U.S. has every resource , technology etc needed.
Take oil: we have coal that can be converted to oil, oil from shale , offshore oil. Instead we become dependent on Saudi and Islamic countries. ditto with becoming dependent on other countries .Our borders are going away with this free trade. You globalists call that freedom. Closing the border , enforcing the border, fighting a war against foreign countries has doesn't take away individual freedom: Actually it's the army, and border protection that protect our freedom and individual freedom.
It is the goal of the left (international socialists) to destroy the U.S. and it's borders. They are succeeding and the main tool of the left/statists is this free trade crap.
It is the Army which protects your and all of our freedom. You call that big government and freedom robbing government?
Ditto for border patrol.It's like you saying that If a business owner wants to bring an illegal in from another country and U.S. laws prevent that that destroys your freedom.That's what you are saying.
Your freedom depends on a strong military and a strong U.S. border. China is destroying that border and so your and everyone’s freedom.
China is waging an economic war into the U.S.. each China product is like a drone in a foreign army destroying the U.S. border, U.S. sovereignty, U.S. economy, our freedom and the U.S..
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