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To: Moltke

Yes, but in an unarmed society the scum view everyone they see as a victim, in a polite society (armed) the thugs are a lot more cautious because anyone could be a formidable opponent. I don’t think it is a coincidence that England has a higher violent crime rate then the US and South Africa combined (according to UN stats)

7 posted on 12/24/2011 12:25:10 PM PST by yank in the UK (decapitation before capitulation)
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To: yank in the UK; Ragnar54
Your points are duly noted. MY point was (and is) that there are a myriad of "ifs", hypothetical situations, and a gun is NOT an "invincibilaty cloak". We can speculate back and forth to the next year, but *if* I were a bad guy intent on harming someone, I would always have the advantage of surprise, while the victim could only react (if at all).

A polite society is a polite society, an armed society is just armed. You see, I dare question the dictum that an armed society is without violent crime. That somehow gets it backwards, IMO.

If the UK violent crime rate is indeed higher than that of the US and S.A. *combined* (obviously not in absolute numbers), then perhaps the UK needs to go back and read Enoch Powell, and act accordingly. The underlying reason for all that crime is painfully (no pun intended) obvious, yet we all know that those in power have no intention at all in addressing it.

Violent crime is a part of any society, but in a homogeneous society it is always less so. Simple, obvious, but not part of the politically correct agenda of any western government.

THAT is the problem that really needs to be addressed. Guns or no guns is just so much window dressing. (And I like my guns as much as the next FReeper, for the record.)

10 posted on 12/24/2011 1:24:27 PM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: yank in the UK

The UK rate has been explained here by myself and others before.

The ‘high rate’ is partly due to the fact of the reporting and collation of crime. There are TWENTY EIGHT different types of assault charge in the UK. Taking a ship out with a unwilling crew in unsafe/dangerous conditions is considered an assault against the crew. I am not kidding, its on the statute books. America?. FOUR different types.

Britain (pop 60m) has about 900 gun deaths a year.
America (pop 300m) has 30000, half of those homicide.
Even multiplied by 5, the UK gun murder rate would be 4500, still around a quarter of the US number.

Many American cities singularly have murder rates that are higher than the whole UK and Ireland combined.

For example, 3000 people died in NI and Britain during the IRA/Loyalist terrorist years 1969-1994. 3000 in 25 years. NY, Detroit, Chicago, Washington and Miami all had more murders than that EVERY YEAR!.

The figures for rape in the UK are quite a bit less than the US, and of course a million miles less than SA.

The idea that the UK is more dangerous than either the US or South Africa is ridiculous. To suggest its worse than both combined is insane. Yes, there has been a rise in British crime and the UK is less safe than 1960, 1970, 1980 or even 1990, but that rise has come from a very low level of crime.

It is not for nothing that the UK, be it England, Scotland, Wales and even (the terrorist-haunted) NI have been famous for decades until very recently for being safe countries with low levels of crime, violent and non violent, where the police didnt need to be armed, and even criminals usually didnt use violence....

I am a 41 yr old male, who has been the victim of crime twice in my adult life. Thats twice in 23 years, and one was theft and the other attempted burglary and assault.

I have lived in America, spent 99% of my life in the UK, and have family and friends who have lived in post apartheid SA. I KNOW that Britain, for all its rise in crime over the last 20 years, is still a far safer country to live in than either America or South Africa.

12 posted on 12/24/2011 8:02:22 PM PST by the scotsman (I)
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