Posted on 12/25/2011 6:56:14 AM PST by markomalley
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stepped up pledges to curb Jewish zealotry in Israel on Sunday after an 8-year-old girl complained of being menaced by ultra-Orthodox men who deemed her dress immodest.
While his conservative government insists such incidents are fringe phenomena in the mostly secular country, Netanyahu's repeated announcements on the matter reflected concern about widening religious and political schisms.
"In a Western, liberal democracy, the public realm is open and safe for all, men and women both, and neither harassment nor discrimination have any place there," he told his cabinet in broadcast remarks.
Netanyahu said he had ordered law enforcement authorities to crack down on "whoever spits, whoever lifts a hand (in violence), whoever harasses" and to remove street signs segregating men from women in some ultra-Orthodox districts.
(Excerpt) Read more at old.news.yahoo.com ...
After all, the so-called ultra-orthodox are just trying to restore Israel to running according to their Scriptures.
When in Rome... Of course, she’d be without a head now if it was Saudi Arabia instead of Israel.
Dark days are ahead for Israel.
Maybe they should mind their own damned business and not criticize others peaceably going about their business. If they find an 8 year-old sexually titillating, I suspect they have a Sandusky problem.
Give them time.
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
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Not necessarily. Have you seen how some parents let their kids dress like little whores? How do you think most of them will grow up? If parents don’t take at least some responsibility, them maybe someone else should. And if someone dares to even notice, who’s fault is that?
I assume a parent was with the 8-year-old. The article does not mention the parent’s reaction. Somebody who harasses my daughter can expect PapaBear to turn into GrizzlyBear real fast.
Consider the source. Intentionally misleading and inciteful. When Rooters does a piece on Saudi Arabia, then we might pay attention.
I spit in the general direction of all mean people......
Yes, because we shouldn't address or tackle any of our own problems until the media satisfies everyone with critical coverage of Muslim dysfunction.
Ultra Orthodox Jews need to mind their own business and stop doing stuff like this and also quit spitting on Christians (which is actually a real problem in Jerusalem). Religious fanaticism is bad no matter who is doing it - especially in Western country that is supposed to be at least tolerant of all faiths.
The article says the girl was en route to a “moderate Orthodox” school. This hardly suggests she was wearing short-shorts with “Juicy” on the butt and a tank top - more likely a skirt, blouse, and sweater. There have been other incidents of men from this subgroup harassing females who would more than meet Primitive Baptist or Pentecostal Holiness standards, but were not in the “uniform” the men preferred.
Why should Israel be tolerant of any other religion but Judaism? Where, pray tell, in the Old Testament are they commanded to tolerate non-Jews?
They are supposed to be a Jewish State...they should act like it.
How was she dressed?
My priest and half the dads in my parish would talk to some little girl dressed like a tart,
Their problem is that less than 20% of all Jews are practicing. They do more to tick off everyone with their street blocking and suck.
The prayers of the Orthodox help protect Israel. They pray and make up for the atheists in Tel Aviv and the J backsliders like me. It’s all good. The IDF, IAF, lots of bullets, missiles and prayers to Hashem protect the Jewish state
Because they claim to be tolerant of other religions AND of the way various Jews practice. This story isn't even about Ultra-Orthodox Jews picking on people of other religions, it is about Ultra-Orthodox types harassing more moderately religious Jews.
They are supposed to be a Jewish State...they should act like it.
They should act like it by allowing Ultra-Orthodox fanatics to harass 8 year old girls? They should act like it by condoning Ultra-Orthodox Jews spitting on Christians in Jerusalem?
Here is Bibi's views on it, you can take your defense of Orthodox obnoxiousness up with him:
"In a Western, liberal democracy, the public realm is open and safe for all, men and women both, and neither harassment nor discrimination have any place there,"
And that's fine...if they wish to be a western, liberal, secular state.
But don't try to have it both ways. And that's my point.
Iran has a bunch of old women carrying long canes they use to hit people they believe are behaving immodestly in public.
However, in a secular nation, this idea could still be used, but to hit people who are being oppressive to others about their religious, or lack of religious, behavior in public.
Some secular Jews torment an Orthodox in public? Whack!
Some Orthodox Jews torment a secular person in public? Whack!
And it’s not limited to Jews. When Muslims, or even some of the odder Christians sects act up, they should get a Whack! too.
It is called public civility. If you don’t have it, you need to be swatted like a bad puppy.
From the Declaration of Establishment of the State of Israel (e.g., the founding document of the modern State of Israel):
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
Did you finish the sentence? It is unclear what you mean. Are you casting aspersions upon your priest and half of the dads or are you intending to say they would talk to the child in an effort to correct her dress and her thinking about dress?
I understand that.
But conservative US support for the State of Israel is divided into two camps:
Those who support Israel based upon its so-called Abrahamic patrimony should fully approve of the actions of the ultra-orthodox in this article.
Those who support Israel based upon its status as the only modern, western democracy should fully disapprove of the actions.
My problem is that Israel tries to simultaneously get the support of both camps.
And, unfortunately, some people on this side of the ocean are confused enough to in one breath condemn the actions of these ultra-orthodox (in other words, imply that Israel is a modern, western democracy) and in the next breath state that God gave that land to the House of Abraham in perpetuity. And, in my opinion, the two claims are mutually exclusive.
Me, I can buy off on the first proposition with no concerns. But if I am to accept the second proposition, then they need to follow the Torah and the Talmud to the letter in their public policy.
wow, Marko. In the old Testament they were commanded to do unto others..........or aren’t you aware of that?
You are kidding right?
Marko
What has happened?
You are off the deep end today.
Here's what I read in the Old Testament:
Deuteronomy 12 1 "These are the statutes and ordinances which you shall be careful to do in the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live upon the earth. 2 You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains and upon the hills and under every green tree; 3 you shall tear down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; you shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy their name out of that place.
Sorry. But it says what it says. And if we are to support Israel based upon their Abrahamic patrimony, then they need to follow unpleasant rules, including that one.
IIRC, the ones who pull this crap are usually Neturei Karta, who are virulently anti-Zionist. Israel shouldn’t put up with this bs.
I've long had the opinion that when the Israelis took Jerusalem in 1967, one of their first acts should have been to remove the mosque from the Temple Mount, and expel all Muslims (paying double fair market value for their houses). They would have had some screaming from the Islamic states, but they would have that regardless, and it would have settled things.
>>Did you finish the sentence?<<
Ooops. I have a bad habit of hitting , instead of .
It was finished. But to clear it up, yes, to get her AND her mother, I may add, to think about the appropriateness of dress.
Words across your buttocks, even “Princess” does not scream “lady”.
“The prayers of the Orthodox help protect Israel. They pray and make up for the atheists in Tel Aviv and the J backsliders like me.”
Lehrer had it right with this:
“The Lord’s my shepherd says the psalm,
but just in case, we better get a bomb”.
And they did.
Looking up what G*d commanded the Jews to do with the Canaanites is quite educational.
True.
And don't get me wrong, I don't personally prefer that (I would hate to see the Christian Holy Sites demolished -- though I could not care less about the Muzzie sites). But the Scriptures say what they say. And if Israel is claiming its legitimacy from Divine Patrimony, then they need to act that way. Else they need to drop it...and quit shining on American Evangelicals.
I mean, compare the extract from Deuteronomy above with this from the The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel:
The State of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; [vs] it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
How in the world can it comply with what was envisaged by the prophets (like the quote from Moses, above) while guaranteeing freedom of religion? Did not a prophet command: You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains and upon the hills and under every green tree; you shall tear down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; you shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy their name out of that place?
I don't see how you can do both?
And, to the point of the article, did not a prophet utter the following:
(Isaiah 3:16-24)
The LORD said: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with outstretched necks, glancing wantonly with their eyes, mincing along as they go, tinkling with their feet;
the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will lay bare their secret parts.
In that day the Lord will take away the finery of the anklets, the headbands, and the crescents;
the pendants, the bracelets, and the scarfs;
the headdresses, the armlets, the sashes, the perfume boxes, and the amulets;
the signet rings and nose rings;
the festal robes, the mantles, the cloaks, and the handbags;
the garments of gauze, the linen garments, the turbans, and the veils.
Instead of perfume there will be rottenness; and instead of a girdle, a rope; and instead of well-set hair, baldness; and instead of a rich robe, a girding of sackcloth; instead of beauty, shame.
The above seems rather inconsistent to me with what I see from Israel (which, despite the terrorism, seems like a very nice modern, Western democracy)
Foisting your religious standards on others is evil.
(see Islam)
This does not mean that expecting others to adhere to basic human principles like not murdering, stealing..etc is improper. (abortion, esp late term, is against all human principles..or should be)
Do no harm to others, treat them like you wish to be treated...this is the bedrock of civilization.
How do you interpret this passage, then:
Deuteronomy 12 1 "These are the statutes and ordinances which you shall be careful to do in the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live upon the earth. 2 You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, upon the high mountains and upon the hills and under every green tree; 3 you shall tear down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; you shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy their name out of that place.
I don’t interpret it, nor do I adhere to it.
OK...fine...
It is very convenient for you, as a (presumable) Christian, to throw out Scriptures that you don't like. Your business. Very liberal of you.
“And that’s fine...if they wish to be a western, liberal, secular state. But don’t try to have it both ways. And that’s my point.”
Israel is a secular, liberal, state. As a secular state, we permit Jewish people to be as Orthodox or not as they want. Here, this neighborhood, was (apparently) made of weirdo Mizrahim from Yemen.
Such neighborhoods are bad places to be for outsiders, just like there are bad neighborhoods for outsiders in the USA. Harlem comes to mind.
It could have been worse; if she was in an arab neighborhood, she would have been brutally raped, beaten, held captive, and eventually killed or sold into slavery.
Of course, that would not be news worthy.
Only when the random Jewish folk act weird is there a controversy.
Well, there you go.
So the next time I read something asking for unquestioning support for Israel because of the prophecy in the Scriptures, I can reply that Jewbacca says, "Israel is a secular, liberal, state" -- therefore, any resemblance to prophecy is strictly coincidental.
Thanks.
You are muddling two distinct concepts in a rather silly manner.
I don’t think there is any dispute that that the government of Israel is democracy and is not run by the Mosiach.
I also don’t think there is any dispute (aside from anti-semites) that the land promised to Abraham (a much larger area) for all times is partially encompassed by the modern state of Israel -— regardless of whether ones accepts the Torah is true.
Nor is there any serious questioning (again, aside from anti-semites) that the historical, pre-Diaspora, Israel was located right where it is located today (albeit in a smaller footprint today).
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