Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Belgrano was heading to the Falklands, secret papers reveal
The Daily Telegraph ^ | 26 Dec 2011 | Thomas Harding

Posted on 12/26/2011 11:42:12 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki

Edited on 12/26/2011 2:44:41 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

Top secret papers are set to prove that the warship Belgrano was heading into the Falkland's exclusion zone when it was sunk, and not heading back to port as the Argentinians claimed.

For decades debate and recrimination has raged over where the ship was heading when it was torpedoed by a Royal Navy submarine.


(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: argentina; faklandswar; falklands; generalbelgrano; royalnavy; southamerica; submarine
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-61 next last
Comment #1 Removed by Moderator

To: sukhoi-30mki

Sad fate for the last surviving warship of the Dec 7, 1941 attack.


2 posted on 12/26/2011 11:46:01 AM PST by skeeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mkjessup

Ping.


3 posted on 12/26/2011 11:48:58 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

Ping.


4 posted on 12/26/2011 11:51:25 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki
Belgrano was heading into the Falkland's exclusion zone when it was sunk

Yeah it was.

5 posted on 12/26/2011 11:55:18 AM PST by humblegunner (The kinder, gentler version...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: skeeter

I may be wrong, but wasn’t this the USS St. Paul? I think it was of a class nicknamed the “TREATY CRUISERS”, designed and constructed according to the limitations of the 5-5-3 Naval Treaty. Didn’t work out too good for the USA.


6 posted on 12/26/2011 11:57:33 AM PST by CaptainAmiigaf ( NY Times: We print the news as it fits our views.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Army Air Corps

Thank you for the ping AAC, and Merry Christmas!


7 posted on 12/26/2011 11:58:39 AM PST by mkjessup (Jimmy Carter is the Skidmark in the panties of American history, 0bama is the yellow stain in front.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: skeeter
Sad fate for the last surviving warship of the Dec 7, 1941 attack.

War is Hell.
8 posted on 12/26/2011 11:59:31 AM PST by mkjessup (Jimmy Carter is the Skidmark in the panties of American history, 0bama is the yellow stain in front.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: CaptainAmiigaf

The Belgrano was formerly known as the USS Phoenix (CL-46).


9 posted on 12/26/2011 12:00:34 PM PST by mkjessup (Jimmy Carter is the Skidmark in the panties of American history, 0bama is the yellow stain in front.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: CaptainAmiigaf

USS Pheonix. One of the first major ships out of the harbor that morning.


10 posted on 12/26/2011 12:00:51 PM PST by skeeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

I always heard loss of the Belgrano was due to malfunctioning vents causing high concentrations of bean vapor to build up below decks which a spark subsequently detonated.


11 posted on 12/26/2011 12:01:04 PM PST by fso301
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki; CaptainAmiigaf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Phoenix_%28CL-46%29


12 posted on 12/26/2011 12:03:11 PM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CaptainAmiigaf
She wasn't a treaty cruiser - she was part of the first round of the Vinson fleet expansion of the late 30s.

You're right about the treaty cruisers though, their kind was pretty much wiped out during the war.

13 posted on 12/26/2011 12:03:46 PM PST by skeeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: skeeter
She was the USS Phoenix (CL-46) a Brooklyn-class light cruiser...and was at Pearl Harbor Dec 7 ,41
14 posted on 12/26/2011 12:07:25 PM PST by tophat9000 (American is Barack Oaken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: skeeter
Lookie here!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Phoenix_%28CL-46%29

In the battle of Leyte Gulf, Phoenix was a unit of Rear Admiral Jesse Oldendorf's group which annihilated the Japanese Southern Force in the battle of Surigao Strait. Phoenix fired four spotting salvoes, and when the fourth hit, opened up with all of her 6" (152mm) batteries. The target later proved to be Yamashiro, which sank after 27 minutes of concentrated fire from the American fleet. The Japanese also lost Fusō and three destroyers in the battle, and American planes sank Mogami the next day.

15 posted on 12/26/2011 12:07:59 PM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Alas Babylon!; American_Centurion; An.American.Expatriate; ASA.Ranger; ASA Vet; Ax; Azeem; ...

MI Ping


16 posted on 12/26/2011 12:08:33 PM PST by ASA Vet (Natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. De Vattel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Army Air Corps

Being the “phoenix”, shouldn’t we expect it to rise up and float again?


17 posted on 12/26/2011 12:09:36 PM PST by mamelukesabre
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: trebb

Ping


18 posted on 12/26/2011 12:09:40 PM PST by ASA Vet (Natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. De Vattel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: abb

Those 15 automatic 6” were supposedly pretty awesome once they found the range.


19 posted on 12/26/2011 12:14:35 PM PST by skeeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: ASA Vet

thank you. and the connection to the attack on pearl harbor also makes this interesting to me.


20 posted on 12/26/2011 12:21:33 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: skeeter; GreyFriar

Some good photos here.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-p/cl46.htm


21 posted on 12/26/2011 12:23:35 PM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

Petty tyrants and dictators often forget that war is hell.


22 posted on 12/26/2011 12:25:21 PM PST by Iron Munro ("Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight he'll just kill you." John Steinbeck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: abb

thank you


23 posted on 12/26/2011 12:32:05 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: fso301

Bean vapor???Not the Argies!!! They live and die by steak 3 times a day.


24 posted on 12/26/2011 12:33:43 PM PST by xkaydet65 (IACTA ALEA EST!!!')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: CaptainAmiigaf

In “War and Remembrance” Pug was in command of the USS Northampton, which was design constrained by the treaty. Herman Wok went into some detail as to how the design was compromised by the artificial constraint. It’s been decades since I read it, so the details are foggy in my mind, but IIRC he covered the subject rather well, considering that it was a work of fiction. He’s written some damn fine works, “The Caine Mutiny” first and foremost to me.


25 posted on 12/26/2011 12:34:17 PM PST by fallujah-nuker (Pat Buchanan, kryptonite to RINO's)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

Considering that air superiority was contested and there were nuclear attack boats in the area, sending this ship out of port was not a real good idea.


26 posted on 12/26/2011 12:37:00 PM PST by Former Proud Canadian (Obamanomics-We don't need your stinking tar sands oil, or the jobs that go with it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fallujah-nuker
I think the deficiencies of this ship type were all related to attempting too much in a 10,000 ton hull. The japanese 10,000 treaty cruiser was 14,000 tons.

The other problem was these cruisers is they were often attempting to occupy the same space as the superb Japanese Type 93 torpedo.

27 posted on 12/26/2011 12:45:14 PM PST by skeeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: skeeter

Seven of the 18 treaty cruisers were sunk. The first being Houston after the Java Sea. The last being Indianapolis. Three were sunk at Savo and the Northampton and Chicago in separate Solomons actions. 11 survived the war.


28 posted on 12/26/2011 12:47:07 PM PST by xkaydet65 (IACTA ALEA EST!!!')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: xkaydet65

Its a tribute to the men who served on them that we didn’t lose more.


29 posted on 12/26/2011 12:50:10 PM PST by skeeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: tophat9000

The Brooklyns where beautiful ships.


30 posted on 12/26/2011 12:52:33 PM PST by omega4179 (We can't wait!............. for the end of an error.....1-20-13)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: skeeter

“Sad fate for the last surviving warship of the Dec 7, 1941 attack.”

coast guard cutter TANEY (1 of 6 treasury cutters) is still afloat in baltimore.


31 posted on 12/26/2011 12:57:50 PM PST by bravo whiskey (If the little things really bother you, maybe it's because the big things are going well.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: ASA Vet
I remember seeing a copy of a British tabloid a couple days after the Belgrano went down. The headline was "GOTCHA!" Unfortunately, a couple of days later, HMS Sheffield was hit by an EXOCET missile and herself went down.

I got to Buenos Aires in 1986 and was working with the Defense Attache, who himself had recently arrived. He told me that the Argentine officers who had trained in the US, lined up in front of our embassy and tossed their US decorations, diplomas and certificates over the fence. Unlike John Kerry, theirs were their own. They were very displeased with US for "tilting" toward the UK in this conflict.

The night before I PCSd out of there in Jun 1989, I was in the hotel bar with some young Argentines. When they figured out by my atricious accent that I was a Yanqui, they wanted to now why we didn't support our hemispheric ally, I asked them how many Argentine regiments went ashore with us at Normandy or how many Argie regiments were alongside the Brits and us in Korea. It shut them up.

32 posted on 12/26/2011 12:59:41 PM PST by Ax
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Ax
The night before I PCSd out of there in Jun 1989, I was in the hotel bar with some young Argentines. When they figured out by my atricious accent that I was a Yanqui, they wanted to now why we didn't support our hemispheric ally, I asked them how many Argentine regiments went ashore with us at Normandy or how many Argie regiments were alongside the Brits and us in Korea. It shut them up.

And how many Nazi war criminals did the Argies harbor?

33 posted on 12/26/2011 1:02:02 PM PST by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

When you are fighting a war at sea your naval vessels are fair game.


34 posted on 12/26/2011 1:03:24 PM PST by rdl6989 (January 20, 2013 The end of an error.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

Nice looking ship. It was a warship belonging to one of the combatants. Who cares where it was when it got sunk?


35 posted on 12/26/2011 1:06:21 PM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ax

Not only that, but the Argentinians were very sympathetic to the nazi cause. Screw ‘em.


36 posted on 12/26/2011 1:10:19 PM PST by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: skeeter

> Those 15 automatic 6” were supposedly pretty awesome once they found the range.

Automatic meaning the guns fired as soon as the shell were seated and not dependent on someone pressing the firing button.

In 1951 Navy boot camp we watch a destroyer gun crew go through a firing drill on a mock up of a 5” gun. It was a marvel to watch those guys work. The whole operation looked like a human machine - each guy moving exactly as he did before as they simulated firing about every ten seconds (manual loading - a projectile and then a brass case).

Later on we were taken to the room below and had to load 54 lb projectiles into the hoist. Some when up as fast as they were dropped in, others hesitated a few seconds and then shot up. We had to grip the shell by the nose and then grip the base but NEVER place our fingers over the base as they might be sheared off as the shell was sent up.

What really impressed me as to how neat some of our WWII stuff was that as the shell was delivered, the fuse in the nose was turned and set to whatever range the range finder hread at the time. Tres Cool.

When I read of some Pacific bombardments lasting hours, all I could thing of was those poor ammo handlers heaving 54 lb projectiles every 15 seconds or so. One guy wrote that after a heavy action on a light cruiser (6” guns and 100 + lb projectiles) sweat was dripping from the turrets as if they had broken a water line.

Oh yeah. If there was a misfire, the crews were supposed to wait 1/2 hour. During combat it was Tough Noogies and they had to take a chance by opening the breech and tossing the case out. Most of the times it work, but when it didn’t, the flare up fried the whole crew.


37 posted on 12/26/2011 1:21:34 PM PST by Oatka (This is the USA, assimilate or evaporate.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: tophat9000

Thanx for posting that pic.


38 posted on 12/26/2011 1:22:45 PM PST by donozark (Ron Paul! You magnificent bastard! I read your book! (cook book that is))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

Wasn’t it, +/- 29 years ago?..... the Falkland War?


39 posted on 12/26/2011 1:33:20 PM PST by skinkinthegrass (I can take tomorrow, $pend it all today. Who can take your income, tax it all away. Obama Man can. :)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

The timing of the revelation seems to coincide with the rise in Argentine bellicosity towards the Falkland Is. Kirchner has made some rather aggressive statements of late. England may be trying to head her off with this not so subtle “reminder...”


40 posted on 12/26/2011 1:35:00 PM PST by donozark (Ron Paul! You magnificent bastard! I read your book! (cook book that is))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: skeeter; CaptainAmiigaf
She wasn't a treaty cruiser - she was part of the first round of the Vinson fleet expansion of the late 30s.

Technically, she wasn't, and was.

"Treaty cruiser" is a term given to those ships designed to the limits of the 1922 Washington treaty: 10,000 tons and 8" guns. Total numbers and tonnage were not limited

But those ships were limited by the 1930 London treaty. Limits of 8" cruisers were actually 6:5:4. At this stage the US had only built 8, so there were no real restrictions to the building program (the last of the next 10, Wichita, in 1937, as actually a modified Brooklyn class, built to fill out the allocation).

The UK was right on the limit and had to cancel 8 ships authourised in 1927, 1928, and 1929.

Japan was already building the twelvth, but could complete all authorised ships, swiching to to nominal "10,000 tonners" with 15 6.1" guns in the 1931 allocation. This was not what the round-eyed parties expected (The US had less than half her allocation built but really didn't want to spend money building more cruisers during the Depression, and the UK really wanted smaller 6" cruisers built in larger numbers for her strategic needs)

The London treaty also imposed tonnage limits for 6" cruisers - 143,000 tons total for the US - but as at the time the US only had 10 small preWashington Omaha class, techically the first 8 Brooklyns fell within the London treaty limits.

41 posted on 12/26/2011 1:55:06 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (New gets old. Steampunk is always cool)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Oztrich Boy

London Naval Treaty limits of 8” cruisers were 18 US, 15 UK, 12 Japan.


42 posted on 12/26/2011 1:58:14 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (New gets old. Steampunk is always cool)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator

They are harboring them even today, those that are still breathing and waiting for their appointment at The Pearly Gates. The family that lived across the street from us were unreconstructed Nazis. Mom and Pop were born in Argentina to German parents, who sent them back to Germany to be educated by the Reich. The returned to Argentina after the war and were reintegrated into the German society there. They had very little to do with the Argies and spent most of their time at one of the many German social clubs there. Daughter Ingrid was SMOKIN’ HOT. Son Axel would’ve been right at home at a NSDAP meeting. They hated the Jews.


43 posted on 12/26/2011 2:25:27 PM PST by Ax
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Scotsman will be Free

Concur. The Argies supplied the Nazis with a lot or beef.


44 posted on 12/26/2011 2:28:52 PM PST by Ax
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: rdl6989
When you are fighting a war at sea your naval vessels are fair game.

Exactly. The Argentinians themselves later acknowledged that the sinking was a legitimate act of war and that being outside of the proclaimed Exclusion Zone did not mean their forces were not subject to attack. The "controversy" about the sinking was mostly a fabrication of anti-Thatcher forces in the UK.

45 posted on 12/26/2011 2:40:03 PM PST by GATOR NAVY ("The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -Dennis Prager)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: xkaydet65
Bean vapor???Not the Argies!!! They live and die by steak 3 times a day.

Thanks for the correction, I'll have to pass it on to my British friends.

46 posted on 12/26/2011 2:47:47 PM PST by fso301
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: skeeter
phoenix Pictures, Images and Photos
47 posted on 12/26/2011 2:54:04 PM PST by Snickering Hound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: skinkinthegrass

Yes, a couple of years before Argentina eliminated England on their way to a second World Cup.

: )


48 posted on 12/26/2011 3:18:28 PM PST by kearnyirish2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: skeeter

To borrow from W.T. Sherman “War is Hell” and knows no bounds. Those who think that they can civilize war are fools because the winners call the shots afterwards and write the history too.


49 posted on 12/26/2011 3:56:22 PM PST by fella ("As it was before Noah, so shall it be again.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: bravo whiskey

True. She was in Honolulu Harbor at the time, wasn’t she?


50 posted on 12/26/2011 5:18:10 PM PST by skeeter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-61 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson