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Gun makers baffled by ATF criteria (Models OKd on case-by-case basis)
Washington Times ^ | January 2, 2012 | Chuck Neubauer

Posted on 01/03/2012 11:07:12 AM PST by bamahead

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is in charge of determining whether a gun model is legal, but the agency won’t say much about its criteria.

Despite overseeing an industry that includes machine guns and other deadly weapons, ATF regulations for the manufacture of weapons are often unclear, leading to reliance on a secretive system by which firearms manufacturers can submit proposed weapons for testing and find out one at a time whether they comply with the law, critics say.

The ATF recommends that manufacturers voluntarily submit weapons for case-by-case determination. But those judgments are private and, it turns out, sometimes contradictory. Critics say nearly identical prototypes can be approved for one manufacturer but denied for another.

-SNIP--

Robert E. Sanders, an ATF official for 24 years who is now a North Carolina lawyer specializing in firearms matters, said letter rulings are often “definitely contradictory and inconsistent,” but are necessary because the regulations being applied are ill-defined.

“It is hard to tell what ATF wants you to do without submitting your product and asking for a letter ruling,” he said. “You can’t tell what the agency has said in the past to others, because those letter rulings are generally secret. How could somebody know how to comply with the law?”

--SNIP--

Mr. Sanders said that submitting a weapon for testing is a “costly and lengthy process” that would not be necessary if the ATF wrote detailed regulations. For example, he said, there are no written regulations on how to modify a machine gun made before a ban went into effect in 1986.

He noted that ATF once issued a letter ruling saying a 14-inch shoestring was a machine gun because it could be used to convert a semi-automatic rifle into an automatic weapon. The letter was later rescinded.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: atf; banglist; batfe; batfeisajoke; bootthebatfe; fascism; lping

1 posted on 01/03/2012 11:07:22 AM PST by bamahead
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To: Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; albertp; Alexander Rubin; Allosaurs_r_us; amchugh; ...
Photobucket

Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!

2 posted on 01/03/2012 11:12:58 AM PST by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: bamahead
but the agency won’t say much about its criteria.

Their criteria are;
Any weapon in the hands of a citizen that they feel they cannot out gun...capacity, caliber, etc...is illegal.

3 posted on 01/03/2012 11:16:02 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Some folks need an education...don't give up or we'll lose the Nation - Grand Funk Railroad)
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To: bamahead

Stolen ;)


4 posted on 01/03/2012 11:17:49 AM PST by WorkerbeeCitizen (I STAND WITH ISRAEL)
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To: bamahead

People have been bankrupted after getting an approval letter and then manufacturing, only to be told the gun is illegal and all must be destroyed at manufacturers’ expense. End the BATFE.


5 posted on 01/03/2012 11:19:31 AM PST by optiguy (Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them.----- Ronald Reagan)
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To: bamahead

“Mr. Sanders said that submitting a weapon for testing is a “costly and lengthy process” that would not be necessary if the ATF wrote detailed regulations. For example, he said, there are no written regulations on how to modify a machine gun made before a ban went into effect in 1986”

Well the obvious immediate solution is to just READ THE LAW and follow it, then we don’t need the ATF. “regulations” are LAWS and therefore must only be written and passed by congress. Anything the BATFE does with regulations is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

It’s time for the pro gun movement to go for the jugular and demand the defunding of the BATFE. We need to go on the offensive. Go after the unconstitutionality of all federal gun laws and their enforcement mechanisms.


6 posted on 01/03/2012 11:22:35 AM PST by precisionshootist
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To: bamahead

One common trait I’ve noticed in ATF and IRS agents is the unwillingness to say anything definitive. They tell you to read the statute (which is purposefully vague) and refuse to give answers to direct finite questions.


7 posted on 01/03/2012 11:36:55 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

I want a Glock .380 but that is only sold to law enforcement. They sell every other Glock model. I find that one strange. I don’t see the rationale as the they have sub compact Glocks in .40 caliber. They also ban certain Glock holsters.


8 posted on 01/03/2012 11:38:17 AM PST by USAF80
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To: bamahead

Mr. Sanders said that submitting a weapon for testing is a “costly and lengthy process”

...To the manufacturer...

Need we say anything more???


9 posted on 01/03/2012 11:43:21 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: SampleMan

One of the greatest examples of silly rules is the Rossi Ranch Hand. They’ve met all the requirements to have it classified as a pistol, but it looks a lot like a sawed-off, lever action rifle to me.


10 posted on 01/03/2012 11:45:52 AM PST by FlyVet
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To: USAF80
Can't buy a Glock here in MA. Glock refuses to submit any models to the Dept. of Public Safety for review before any model can be listed for sale in MA by the Atty. General. Disgusting, ain't it?

Everyone else in the USA can buy a Ruger Mini-14 tactical 5.56mm with flash suppressor, collapsible stock and a 20 round magazine. But not in MA.
I found one in RI for $350 with a red dot scope. I could buy it but could not get it shipped to an FFL in MA. Peed me off royally. So I bought a Mossberg 479 30-30 lever action rifle for $250 from the same dealer. That one is legal in MA.

The reason for all this BS?

Those particular features are illegal in MA because when the Federal assault weapons ban was about to sunset, the Atty. General in MA at the time decided to introduce legislation to copy it for MA. Guess who signed it into law?

Mitt Romney.

11 posted on 01/03/2012 12:03:59 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Some folks need an education...don't give up or we'll lose the Nation - Grand Funk Railroad)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
How could somebody know how to comply with the law?”

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against... We’re after power and we mean it... There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Reardon, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.” - Ayn Rand, ‘Atlas Shrugged’ 1957

L

12 posted on 01/03/2012 1:28:28 PM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: SampleMan; All

Actually the ATF is better than some agencies. I have a customer who requested guidance from Health and Human Services on HIPAA regulations.

HHS came back and declined to give clarification on the regulation because doing so would constitute legal advice.


13 posted on 01/03/2012 1:30:39 PM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts; Las Vegas Ron; onyx; little jeremiah
Can't buy a Glock here in MA. Glock refuses to submit any models to the Dept. of Public Safety for review before any model can be listed for sale in MA by the Atty. General. Disgusting, ain't it? Everyone else in the USA can buy a Ruger Mini-14 tactical 5.56mm with flash suppressor, collapsible stock and a 20 round magazine. But not in MA. I found one in RI for $350 with a red dot scope. I could buy it but could not get it shipped to an FFL in MA. Peed me off royally. So I bought a Mossberg 479 30-30 lever action rifle for $250 from the same dealer. That one is legal in MA. The reason for all this BS? Those particular features are illegal in MA because when the Federal assault weapons ban was about to sunset, the Atty. General in MA at the time decided to introduce legislation to copy it for MA. Guess who signed it into law? Mitt Romney.

I hope post that daily all over the internet!!!

14 posted on 01/03/2012 2:16:50 PM PST by mojitojoe (SCOTUS.... think about that when you decide to sit home and pout because your candidate didn't win)
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To: mojitojoe; Bloody Sam Roberts

That Mossy looks sweeeeet!! I want!!

FUMR!


15 posted on 01/03/2012 2:22:25 PM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: mojitojoe; Jim Robinson

BTTT

Thank you for the ping!


16 posted on 01/03/2012 2:23:56 PM PST by onyx (PLEASE SUPPORT FREE REPUBLIC:DONATE MONTHLY! Sarah's New Ping List - tell me if you want on it.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

NO ROMNEY, NO WAY, NOT NOW, NOT EVER!

Thank you for this information.


17 posted on 01/03/2012 2:25:49 PM PST by onyx (PLEASE SUPPORT FREE REPUBLIC:DONATE MONTHLY! Sarah's New Ping List - tell me if you want on it.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

Reason Number 1,771,561 to NOT vote for R0mney.


18 posted on 01/03/2012 2:45:44 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

I am certain that there is a good reason why you don’t just pack up and leave that fair state. Care to share it with us?


19 posted on 01/03/2012 2:53:43 PM PST by OldPossum
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts; Jim Robinson

NO ROMNEY!


20 posted on 01/03/2012 3:11:15 PM PST by EdReform (Oath Keepers - Guardians of the Republic - Honor your oath - Join us: www.oathkeepers.org)
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

Same here. ;-)


21 posted on 01/03/2012 3:16:09 PM PST by Stonewall Jackson (Democrats: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.")
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To: bamahead

Tyranny is whim.


22 posted on 01/03/2012 3:18:16 PM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: USAF80

Handgun importation requires adherence to a points-based list of various features, with a minimum total score required for permission. It’s why smaller models started sporting features like finger grooves: more points. The .380 does not quite achieve minimum score due to its caliber. (Didn’t say the list was sensible, just that it’s there.)


23 posted on 01/03/2012 3:19:21 PM PST by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com/)
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To: optiguy
From the article:

In other cases, the ATF has rescinded letter rulings and caused problems for those who had begun production or sales based on approvals. Contradictory rulings have cost gun manufacturers and dealers hundreds of thousands of dollars in spent and anticipated revenue.

It's the same reason Clinton banned cheap Norinco ammo. Make owning guns costly.

24 posted on 01/03/2012 3:20:48 PM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: precisionshootist

How about increasing the number of liberty loving Justices on SCOTUS first? It’s an awfully thin line between liberty and tyranny.

We’ve got to capture and hold Congress for a couple generations. How about a return to the Lochner Era?


25 posted on 01/03/2012 3:23:23 PM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Las Vegas Ron
That Mossy looks sweeeeet!! I want!!

Yeah...I love it. It gives me a good 200+ yard range as a stand off weapon and it is built like a tank. It has buckhorn sights but also has a rail that attachs with a few screws so I can mount a scope to it. A great find for sure.

I always wanted a Winchester 94 but couldn't really afford one.

26 posted on 01/03/2012 3:34:49 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Some folks need an education...don't give up or we'll lose the Nation - Grand Funk Railroad)
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To: OldPossum
Care to share it with us?

Wifey refuses to entertain such thoughts until the kids are out of college. They go to a MA state school...MA loans and such. Plus I am entrenched with the company I work for and intend to retire with them. Their corp HQ is here. I could work pretty much anywhere remotely but that would take some doing.
I am due to be sent out to a new center in Utah to train some newbs next month. Depending on what I see out there, I may decide to get transferred out there. It's close enough to Idaho to make it a worthwhile commute.

So...for now...it's life in the sewer. Though with what is going on here and elsewhere these days, wifey is starting to see the light. I keep telling here the light at the end of that tunnel is a freight train and we have a limited window to get off the tracks. We'll see.

27 posted on 01/03/2012 3:41:21 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Some folks need an education...don't give up or we'll lose the Nation - Grand Funk Railroad)
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To: driftdiver

Try to determine from Treasury or any federal bank examiner what the definition of “asset” is for a bank.


28 posted on 01/03/2012 4:03:17 PM PST by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: bamahead

G-man: “What do we do?”

Burt Gummer: “You do what you do best: find something simple and complicate it!”

From Tremors 3. Tells you everything you need to know about government agencies.


29 posted on 01/03/2012 4:24:49 PM PST by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be purchased and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: bamahead
Robert E. Sanders, an ATF official for 24 years who is now a North Carolina lawyer specializing in firearms matters, said letter rulings are often “definitely contradictory and inconsistent,” but are necessary because the regulations being applied are ill-defined.

“It is hard to tell what ATF wants you to do without submitting your product and asking for a letter ruling,” he said. “You can’t tell what the agency has said in the past to others, because those letter rulings are generally secret. How could somebody know how to comply with the law?”

These are all signs of a VERY CORRUPT administration.

If one manufacturer shares its wealth with certain DC individuals and re-election campaigns, and has a powerful union, and is willing to share its gun-registration data, it might get its gun approved.

If a 2nd competitor is "greedy", and does NOT want to share its wealth with DC shakedown artists, or be overrun by unions, or NOT share its purchaser's data, it might NOT get its gun approved.

The ambiguity of their regulations, and their SECRECY of how they ruled in the past is key to maximizing the terrorist-like demands they force upon the gun makers.


This reminds me of when Hillary and Bill wanted gun manufacturers to build in an automatic kill-switch so that LE or the gov' could disable our guns in a national emergency.

30 posted on 01/03/2012 5:05:07 PM PST by Future Useless Eater (Chicago politics = corrupted capitalism = takeover by COMMUNity-ISM)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

Thanks.

I can understand why you are living where you are, although it seems that you do want to make tracks out of there ASAP. And who would blame you?

You seem to be developing some good options that may make it sooner rather than later. Heck, I’d think that living in either Utah or Idaho would be great!

Again, I appreciate your explaining why you find it necessary to live where you do.

P.S. I always appreciate reading your comments on various threads.


31 posted on 01/03/2012 5:18:30 PM PST by OldPossum
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To: driftdiver; All

Making laws so complicated that each case must be individually decided by bureaucrats is the how the rule of law is completely subverted to the rule by man.

Progressives love that.


32 posted on 01/03/2012 6:08:20 PM PST by marktwain
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To: 1010RD
"How about increasing the number of liberty loving Justices on SCOTUS first? It’s an awfully thin line between liberty and tyranny. We’ve got to capture and hold Congress for a couple generations. How about a return to the Lochner Era?"

The problem that I see with this is the fact that we may NEVER get there. Lets just say I've been around awhile and decades have past waiting for the right time to get aggressive. The time is now, today, every day from here out until we have our freedom. I have been hearing Rush say about the Republicans that "No one ever won ANYTHING by playing defense". He's right. This applies to 2nd amendment rights also. We are where we are today with the NFA, the BATFE and all the other crap that we are putting up with because we have been playing defense for years. it's time to go on offense, quit asking and start demanding. The 2nd amendment is clear and the right is absolute, no exceptions.

We need to take the NFA to the supreme court but we have to put the court on notice. ( you better learn to read or your lifetime appointments are going bye bye!!). These nine people don't have the final say, it is we the people that will decide. We need to give them a chance but don't fear a loss. If the supremes can't read and get this simple decision correct we will change the court. simple as that.

This applies to Obamacare as well.

Bottom line: Time is a luxury we don't have. Now is the time to attack and we keep attacking until we win.

Rant off:

33 posted on 01/03/2012 8:05:02 PM PST by precisionshootist
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Those particular features are illegal in MA because when the Federal assault weapons ban was about to sunset, the Atty. General in MA at the time decided to introduce legislation to copy it for MA.

Similar situation here in the People's Republic of New Jersey. Our current governor isn't doing much of anything to correct the issue.
34 posted on 01/04/2012 8:47:07 AM PST by dmartin (Not the 'Change' you were 'Hoping' for?)
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