Skip to comments.Gun makers baffled by ATF criteria (Models OK’d on case-by-case basis)
Posted on 01/03/2012 11:07:12 AM PST by bamahead
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is in charge of determining whether a gun model is legal, but the agency wont say much about its criteria.
Despite overseeing an industry that includes machine guns and other deadly weapons, ATF regulations for the manufacture of weapons are often unclear, leading to reliance on a secretive system by which firearms manufacturers can submit proposed weapons for testing and find out one at a time whether they comply with the law, critics say.
The ATF recommends that manufacturers voluntarily submit weapons for case-by-case determination. But those judgments are private and, it turns out, sometimes contradictory. Critics say nearly identical prototypes can be approved for one manufacturer but denied for another.
Robert E. Sanders, an ATF official for 24 years who is now a North Carolina lawyer specializing in firearms matters, said letter rulings are often definitely contradictory and inconsistent, but are necessary because the regulations being applied are ill-defined.
It is hard to tell what ATF wants you to do without submitting your product and asking for a letter ruling, he said. You cant tell what the agency has said in the past to others, because those letter rulings are generally secret. How could somebody know how to comply with the law?
Mr. Sanders said that submitting a weapon for testing is a costly and lengthy process that would not be necessary if the ATF wrote detailed regulations. For example, he said, there are no written regulations on how to modify a machine gun made before a ban went into effect in 1986.
He noted that ATF once issued a letter ruling saying a 14-inch shoestring was a machine gun because it could be used to convert a semi-automatic rifle into an automatic weapon. The letter was later rescinded.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
Their criteria are;
Any weapon in the hands of a citizen that they feel they cannot out gun...capacity, caliber, etc...is illegal.
People have been bankrupted after getting an approval letter and then manufacturing, only to be told the gun is illegal and all must be destroyed at manufacturers’ expense. End the BATFE.
“Mr. Sanders said that submitting a weapon for testing is a costly and lengthy process that would not be necessary if the ATF wrote detailed regulations. For example, he said, there are no written regulations on how to modify a machine gun made before a ban went into effect in 1986”
Well the obvious immediate solution is to just READ THE LAW and follow it, then we don’t need the ATF. “regulations” are LAWS and therefore must only be written and passed by congress. Anything the BATFE does with regulations is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
It’s time for the pro gun movement to go for the jugular and demand the defunding of the BATFE. We need to go on the offensive. Go after the unconstitutionality of all federal gun laws and their enforcement mechanisms.
One common trait I’ve noticed in ATF and IRS agents is the unwillingness to say anything definitive. They tell you to read the statute (which is purposefully vague) and refuse to give answers to direct finite questions.
I want a Glock .380 but that is only sold to law enforcement. They sell every other Glock model. I find that one strange. I don’t see the rationale as the they have sub compact Glocks in .40 caliber. They also ban certain Glock holsters.
Mr. Sanders said that submitting a weapon for testing is a costly and lengthy process
...To the manufacturer...
Need we say anything more???
One of the greatest examples of silly rules is the Rossi Ranch Hand. They’ve met all the requirements to have it classified as a pistol, but it looks a lot like a sawed-off, lever action rifle to me.
Everyone else in the USA can buy a Ruger Mini-14 tactical 5.56mm with flash suppressor, collapsible stock and a 20 round magazine. But not in MA.
I found one in RI for $350 with a red dot scope. I could buy it but could not get it shipped to an FFL in MA. Peed me off royally. So I bought a Mossberg 479 30-30 lever action rifle for $250 from the same dealer. That one is legal in MA.
The reason for all this BS?
Those particular features are illegal in MA because when the Federal assault weapons ban was about to sunset, the Atty. General in MA at the time decided to introduce legislation to copy it for MA. Guess who signed it into law?
Did you really think we want those laws observed? said Dr. Ferris. We want them to be broken. Youd better get it straight that its not a bunch of boy scouts youre up against... Were after power and we mean it... Theres no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there arent enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? Whats there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt. Now thats the system, Mr. Reardon, thats the game, and once you understand it, youll be much easier to deal with. - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged 1957
Actually the ATF is better than some agencies. I have a customer who requested guidance from Health and Human Services on HIPAA regulations.
HHS came back and declined to give clarification on the regulation because doing so would constitute legal advice.
I hope post that daily all over the internet!!!
That Mossy looks sweeeeet!! I want!!
Thank you for the ping!
NO ROMNEY, NO WAY, NOT NOW, NOT EVER!
Thank you for this information.
Reason Number 1,771,561 to NOT vote for R0mney.
I am certain that there is a good reason why you don’t just pack up and leave that fair state. Care to share it with us?
Same here. ;-)
Tyranny is whim.
Handgun importation requires adherence to a points-based list of various features, with a minimum total score required for permission. It’s why smaller models started sporting features like finger grooves: more points. The .380 does not quite achieve minimum score due to its caliber. (Didn’t say the list was sensible, just that it’s there.)
In other cases, the ATF has rescinded letter rulings and caused problems for those who had begun production or sales based on approvals. Contradictory rulings have cost gun manufacturers and dealers hundreds of thousands of dollars in spent and anticipated revenue.
It's the same reason Clinton banned cheap Norinco ammo. Make owning guns costly.
How about increasing the number of liberty loving Justices on SCOTUS first? It’s an awfully thin line between liberty and tyranny.
We’ve got to capture and hold Congress for a couple generations. How about a return to the Lochner Era?
Yeah...I love it. It gives me a good 200+ yard range as a stand off weapon and it is built like a tank. It has buckhorn sights but also has a rail that attachs with a few screws so I can mount a scope to it. A great find for sure.
I always wanted a Winchester 94 but couldn't really afford one.
Wifey refuses to entertain such thoughts until the kids are out of college. They go to a MA state school...MA loans and such. Plus I am entrenched with the company I work for and intend to retire with them. Their corp HQ is here. I could work pretty much anywhere remotely but that would take some doing.
I am due to be sent out to a new center in Utah to train some newbs next month. Depending on what I see out there, I may decide to get transferred out there. It's close enough to Idaho to make it a worthwhile commute.
So...for now...it's life in the sewer. Though with what is going on here and elsewhere these days, wifey is starting to see the light. I keep telling here the light at the end of that tunnel is a freight train and we have a limited window to get off the tracks. We'll see.
Try to determine from Treasury or any federal bank examiner what the definition of “asset” is for a bank.
G-man: “What do we do?”
Burt Gummer: “You do what you do best: find something simple and complicate it!”
From Tremors 3. Tells you everything you need to know about government agencies.
Robert E. Sanders, an ATF official for 24 years who is now a North Carolina lawyer specializing in firearms matters, said letter rulings are often definitely contradictory and inconsistent, but are necessary because the regulations being applied are ill-defined.These are all signs of a VERY CORRUPT administration.
If one manufacturer shares its wealth with certain DC individuals and re-election campaigns, and has a powerful union, and is willing to share its gun-registration data, it might get its gun approved.
If a 2nd competitor is "greedy", and does NOT want to share its wealth with DC shakedown artists, or be overrun by unions, or NOT share its purchaser's data, it might NOT get its gun approved.
The ambiguity of their regulations, and their SECRECY of how they ruled in the past is key to maximizing the terrorist-like demands they force upon the gun makers.
This reminds me of when Hillary and Bill wanted gun manufacturers to build in an automatic kill-switch so that LE or the gov' could disable our guns in a national emergency.
I can understand why you are living where you are, although it seems that you do want to make tracks out of there ASAP. And who would blame you?
You seem to be developing some good options that may make it sooner rather than later. Heck, I’d think that living in either Utah or Idaho would be great!
Again, I appreciate your explaining why you find it necessary to live where you do.
P.S. I always appreciate reading your comments on various threads.
Making laws so complicated that each case must be individually decided by bureaucrats is the how the rule of law is completely subverted to the rule by man.
Progressives love that.
The problem that I see with this is the fact that we may NEVER get there. Lets just say I've been around awhile and decades have past waiting for the right time to get aggressive. The time is now, today, every day from here out until we have our freedom. I have been hearing Rush say about the Republicans that "No one ever won ANYTHING by playing defense". He's right. This applies to 2nd amendment rights also. We are where we are today with the NFA, the BATFE and all the other crap that we are putting up with because we have been playing defense for years. it's time to go on offense, quit asking and start demanding. The 2nd amendment is clear and the right is absolute, no exceptions.
We need to take the NFA to the supreme court but we have to put the court on notice. ( you better learn to read or your lifetime appointments are going bye bye!!). These nine people don't have the final say, it is we the people that will decide. We need to give them a chance but don't fear a loss. If the supremes can't read and get this simple decision correct we will change the court. simple as that.
This applies to Obamacare as well.
Bottom line: Time is a luxury we don't have. Now is the time to attack and we keep attacking until we win.