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French Senate to vote on Armenian 'genocide' law this month
news az ^ | 05 January 2012

Posted on 01/05/2012 12:57:01 PM PST by george76

The French Government announced recently that the Senate is to debate the bill penalizing the denial of the Armenian 'genocide' by late January. The lower chamber of the French parliament approved the draft with an overwhelming majority of votes on December 22.

...

After the passage of the bill by the National Assembly, Turkey’s state-run television said Ankara was recalling its ambassador from Paris. Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan later said the country was freezing its political, economic and military ties with France.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.az ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: armenia; armenian; armeniangenocide; genocide; islam; jihad; muslim; muslims; rop; trop; turkey

1 posted on 01/05/2012 12:57:08 PM PST by george76
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To: george76

Maybe the frogs should investigate all the jews they shipped to their deaths from the Drancy internment camp. What miserable self-important trash.


2 posted on 01/05/2012 12:59:54 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: george76
The Armenian Genocide:

The dead

Map:

3 posted on 01/05/2012 1:08:00 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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To: george76
Anything that hurts the Turks these days is welcome. Kemal Atatürk made Turkey a secular state. But the current leadership has changed it back to an Islamist theocracy. As such they became the enemy. The enemy of my enemy may not be my friend. But I will appreciate their efforts none the less.
4 posted on 01/05/2012 1:09:27 PM PST by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: All
More pics of the Armenian Genocide:

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocide_Photos .

(Warning: Some images may be disturbing)

5 posted on 01/05/2012 1:10:35 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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To: george76

Why would any senate move to outlaw what someone says... Unless it were true? If it is only silly falsehoods why ban it? Whenever a governmental functionary says you can be punished by law for saying something, I seriously doubt it would be for saying something untrue. If you really want to anger people, then tell them the truth.


6 posted on 01/05/2012 1:19:00 PM PST by yank in the UK ( A liberal mocking Christianity. I asked "why don't you mock Islam?" he replied "Muslims are violent)
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To: SpaceBar

Yet Turkey has never admitted it even happened and tried to punish anyone who said otherwise. There’s no remorse there at all. And for that they should not be forgiven.


7 posted on 01/05/2012 1:20:20 PM PST by DB
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To: george76

Has the French government and the Catholic Church apologized for the massacre of tens of thousands of Christians murdered as heretics ?

They should get their own house in order if that is possible before chunking rocks at others


8 posted on 01/05/2012 1:23:50 PM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 ..... Crucifixion is coming)
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To: yank in the UK
Why would any senate move to outlaw what someone says... Unless it were true? If it is only silly falsehoods why ban it?

Are you trying to side with Turkey on this one by denying the Armenian Genocide? Thats what it sounds like you're saying...

9 posted on 01/05/2012 1:26:29 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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To: yank in the UK

Brilliant logic.

So the Holocaust didn’t happen either right?

I’m not for laws limiting free speech but because a country has one doesn’t automatically mean it is hiding a lie.


10 posted on 01/05/2012 1:28:12 PM PST by DB
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To: bert

The french just want to poke their fingers in the eye of someone they consider filthier. “We admitted our genocide.” Oh please.


11 posted on 01/05/2012 1:34:19 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
Side with turkey? I don't have a side in this, if it happened, and there is evidence that it happened.. Then it happened. What I am questioning is why would someone ban the denial of an event, if there is plenty of evidence of it? Sounds stupid to me.
Are they punishing people that deny an event all together, or are they outlawing anyone denying THEIR version of events? To ban speech that is false seems stupid to me?
12 posted on 01/05/2012 1:36:39 PM PST by yank in the UK ( A liberal mocking Christianity. I asked "why don't you mock Islam?" he replied "Muslims are violent)
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To: george76

Uncensored Edition of British Blue Book Sheds Light on Armenian Genocide

Viscount James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee were commissioned to prepare the Blue Book, which is formally known as The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915–1916. Toynbee carefully compiled and verified dozens of eyewitness accounts from different parts of the Ottoman Empire. These accounts provided the basis for Bryce’s brilliant thesis on the Genocide, published while the crime was still in progress.

The book includes eyewitness accounts from United States consular and missionary sources, as well as the testimony of German, Italian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Greek, Kurdish, and Armenian witnesses.

http://www.gomidas.org/books/bryce.htm


13 posted on 01/05/2012 1:38:48 PM PST by baysider
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To: DB

I’m not denying the holocaust never happened, please don’t put words in my mouth. I just can’t understand why someone would ban by law the denial of their version of events... Unless their version was untrue.


14 posted on 01/05/2012 1:40:36 PM PST by yank in the UK ( A liberal mocking Christianity. I asked "why don't you mock Islam?" he replied "Muslims are violent)
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To: DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
Regulars may tire of seeing this (below) but as far as I know it is still true; to wit, the issue of the "genocide" is for the purposes of pursuing world opinion to increase chances that a world "court" will order the modern Republic of Turkey to turn over territory and wealth to Armenia.

As far a I recall Turkey does not deny the horrors but will not describe it as genocide. Turkey also disputes the death count and points to the huge number of Turks killed during the W.W.I hostilities that had Russia and Armenia battling Germany and the Ottoman Empire.

It would be far better IMO if Armenia would just come out and admit this rather than year-after-year, country-after-country demand resolutions condemning modern Turkey for something that happened 100 years ago before modern Turkey existed. To wit,

Recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey is a secondary issue – interview with Harut Sassounian

"the admission of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey is an issue of secondary importance for us. The following issue must be raised: a cruel crime was committed against the Armenian people. The whole nation was actually annihilated, our lands were seized and our 3,000-year-old culture was destroyed. This is not only a cruel crime, but also a great injustice. Therefore, our true demand is compensation for this injustice. The world must know about what happened, and we have to a great extent succeeded. The Turkish side is well aware that the step to follow the admission of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey will be a demand for compensation and return of the lands. This is the reason why Turkey will not admit the Armenian Genocide . . . ."

So what happens now? the Kurds also demand the same territory -- who by the way were also guilty of murdering thousands of Armenians -- as well was Kaiser Wilhelm II German Emperor aware and, some say, abetted the attempted extermination of Russia's ally, the Armenians.

I recall that the article (that I linked) admits that Turkey acknowledges the deaths. The horrors did in fact happen. There are elsewhere claims of hundreds of thousands of Turk civilians killed also.. the real issue seems to be territory and retribution demanded of modern Turkey.

(Lawsuits have forced insurance companies to pay Armenians in recent years.)

BTW, speaking of murdering the Armenian people and destroying Armenian culture -- how many Armenians were killed when the Bolsheviks took over and, I think, made Armenia the first Soviet "republic" established outside of Russia?

15 posted on 01/05/2012 1:46:09 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: yank in the UK
There is plenty of evidence that it happened. You can see the pics in the link I gave upthread and other stuff online.

I suppose they are banning it for the same reason some have banned holocaust denial. Denying such events is dangerous and the type of people who do are NOT people you want in your country if you can avoid it...

16 posted on 01/05/2012 1:46:09 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis
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To: baysider
It's not even an issue whether anyone “believes” it. The Turkish people are not stupid. They have cell phones, the Internet etc. They read books, they know it happened. To believe otherwise is simply an insult to their intelligence. The government there chooses not to officially recognize the event because they feel it's politically embarrassing, period. That is their right, but for the government of France to publicly spank them for obvious political reasons is pretty hypocritical given the historic past.
17 posted on 01/05/2012 1:47:12 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis

I know what you mean. Only a fool would deny that something happened that did, or deny that something that is so isn’t. If certain UN functionaries had their way they would ban the criticism of Islam.
If a governmental functionary told you it was unlawful to refer to Islam as anything other then a peaceful passive religion would you believe it? I sure as he’ll wouldn’t.


18 posted on 01/05/2012 1:51:34 PM PST by yank in the UK ( A liberal mocking Christianity. I asked "why don't you mock Islam?" he replied "Muslims are violent)
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To: SpaceBar
RE: "The government there chooses not to officially recognize the event because they feel it's politically embarrassing, period."

I would have to disagree. The government of Turkey has acknowledged the horrific deaths -- on both sides. I attempted to offer a little more information above.

There has been no attempt to hide the horror of those W.W. I and following events. But genocide is not the word to use -- I found that out real quick when I lived in Ankara.

I have done only cursory searches but it seems to me that the primary issue is not the horrors -- no one anywhere denies the actions of the Ottoman empire against the Armenians -- but keeping the charges of "genocide" going is a means to an end. That's how I read the above article linked in my first reply.

Armenia calls eastern Turkey, western Armenia. The Armenian want it back and then some -- I suppose they lost it to Mustafa Kemal during the war for independence after W.W.I.

19 posted on 01/05/2012 2:12:37 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: All
Admitting the horror but "rejecting that the killing was genocide" -- still go to prison! -- you want that in America?

Two Turks arrested in Switzerland for denying the Armenian Genocide. The article describes the following (from another Internet source) "The Swiss police reported that the Turks were arrested at a conference in the Zurich suburb of Winterthur, where posters were hung up and leaflets distributed rejecting that the killing was genocide. One of them is reported as initiator of the event and the other was shouting slogans before a crowd. The law providing for punishment for the denial of the Armenian Genocide was adopted in Switzerland in 2005. Last week, a Swiss cantonal court upheld the conviction against Dogu Perincek, the leader of the Workers' Party (IP), as well as an order for him to pay a fine of 3,000 Swiss francs ($2,450). Police in the canton of Zurich identified the two arrested individuals as a 57-year-old resident of Germany and a 51-year-old Swiss resident."

(It is kind of neat seeing that Muslims in Europe can be charged -- I guess the guys weren't Islamists or Jihadists.)

So Armenians want this for France, America, et al. also? They have serious issues with the modern Republic of Turkey. We have enough problems. Turkey and Armenia are next door to each other. Start talking! Fat chance! We'll give up California to Mexicorruption before Turkey will give up eastern Turkey to Armenia --- wot? OK. Nevada.

20 posted on 01/05/2012 2:21:36 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: yank in the UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_denial


21 posted on 01/05/2012 2:44:25 PM PST by DB
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To: george76; BillyBoy; Cincinna; GeronL; NFHale

France should not prohibit freedom of speech but that doesn’t bother me as much as usual in this case.

The Turks behavior on this matter is shameful.


22 posted on 01/05/2012 4:47:59 PM PST by Impy (Don't call me red.)
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To: WilliamofCarmichael

You wrote, “But genocide is not the word to use — I found that out real quick when I lived in Ankara, “

I beg to differ. The deliberate attempt to exterminate a race of people is genocide. Exactly what the Turks were guilty of.

How long did you live in Ankara ? My father’s Armenian family lived in Turkey for more than 2500 years. Those who survived lived to tell the tale .


23 posted on 01/05/2012 4:50:25 PM PST by baysider
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To: baysider

With apologies to ‘They Might Be Giants’

Why did the Armenians get the works?
That’s nobody’s business but the Turks.


24 posted on 01/05/2012 4:51:58 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

“Why did the Armenians get the works?
That’s nobody’s business but the Turks.”

Unless they deny it and teach their school children that it never happened, as the Turks do.

The German people don’t deny the Jewish holocaust.


25 posted on 01/05/2012 5:13:27 PM PST by baysider
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To: baysider
I lived in Ankara about one year.

I know that the Ottoman Empire did in fact do those horrible things. But I do not choose to refer to it as genocide -- so would you have me punished for that? I asked this question up in reply #20. You want me to be arrested, jailed, fined? Called names?

Some say that Europeans committed genocide on the Indians in America. The UN definition of genocide includes expelling people as well as killing them. So we committed genocide or did we do terrible things -- either way it is just as terrible without calling it genocide.

There are Kurd and German connections to the mass killings not just Ottoman Turks. What about them?

There were also hundreds of thousands of others killed as a result of W.W.I. Russia and Armenia were fighting Germany and the Ottoman Empire.

How many Armenians did the Bolsheviks kills when they forced Armenia into the U.S.S.R in 1918? Are those victims worth less than the victims of the Ottoman Empire?

Why are the Germans, the Kurds, the Communists being excused? It appears to me that they are. Maybe they did not kill as many but the dead were done just as wrong.

26 posted on 01/05/2012 5:37:40 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: WilliamofCarmichael

You wrote:
“As far a I recall Turkey does not deny the horrors but will not describe it as genocide.”

Then let’s call it Jihad....

On Nov. 14, less than two weeks after the Ottoman Empire entered the war, the sheikh-ul-Islam ,Mustafa Hayri Bey,
made a formal declaration of JIHAD in Constantinople. (Istanbul) The Germans and Austro-Hungarians were the only Christians exempt from the Jihad.Pamphlets were circulated
extolling the need to exterminate the Christians....”He who kills even one believer shall be rewarded by God.”


27 posted on 01/05/2012 5:51:35 PM PST by baysider
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To: baysider
RE: Then let’s call it Jihad....

I never thought of that, that's great! Thanks!

That kind of Islam was crushed in the modern secular Turkey but it is coming back.. easy to find it documented even right here in FR -- in some important aspects the return of an Ottoman Empire-like Turkey is being immensely aided from right here in the U.S. of A.

Thanks again. I have a lot of respect for the Turks.. even my wife whom I met and married in Madrid made the point that Madrid v. Ankara looks-wise Madrid wins easily.. but it is just the opposite people-wise. I absolutely agree. This was several years before the AK Party and such.

28 posted on 01/05/2012 6:12:03 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: All
I have to add to my post immediately above, the last opinion poll I saw from Turkey (in other than the AKP's Zaman) 40-percent of Turks absolutely reject what the Islamists (political Islam, sharia law advocates) are doing. The 40% will absolutely refuse to live under Sharia Law.
29 posted on 01/05/2012 6:17:19 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: WilliamofCarmichael

I really don’t care whether or not the French pass this contoversial law. I do care, however, that the government of Turkey continues to deny the genocide and mislead their young people. Far better, they should honor the memory of the victims of this tragedy.

Why teach the young generation in their schools that this was a result of WW I when this evil deed began against a peaceful Armenian population with no war on Turkish soil ?

Why not admit it and move on ? Probably because it would shake the foundations of the old Ataturk power structure .

We differ on this issue, but I send my best to you.


30 posted on 01/05/2012 6:27:10 PM PST by baysider
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