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Irish minister admits neutrality policy during WW2 was 'morally bankrupt'
Daily Mail ^ | 27th January 2012 | Lee Moran

Posted on 01/26/2012 6:46:31 PM PST by the scotsman

'Ireland has admitted for the first time that its 'morally bankrupt' regime of the 1930s denied visas to desperate Jews trying to escape from Nazi persecution.

Justice Minister Alan Shatter said that, following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Ireland's anti-semitic Berlin ambassador Charles Bewley ensured 'the doors to this state were kept firmly closed to German Jewish families trying to flee'.

The admission came as he apologised for the way brave soldiers who 'deserted' the Irish Army to fight with the Allies during the Second World War were treated.

He suggested the 4,983 servicemen, who were barred from jobs and State pensions on their return and condemned to poverty and stigma for the rest of their lives, were now likely to receive an official pardon.'

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Germany; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: fartyshadesofgreen; germany; hitler; ireland; worldwareleven

1 posted on 01/26/2012 6:46:36 PM PST by the scotsman
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To: the scotsman
Wow. Sounds like Ireland really stunk up the joint back in the day. About like Sweden.
2 posted on 01/26/2012 6:48:41 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: the scotsman

The main reason they did it was because Germany was the enemy of England, and they hated England.


3 posted on 01/26/2012 6:51:29 PM PST by proxy_user
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To: the scotsman

Today it is 2012. So many trying to live in the past. You have no idea what decision you would have made then. Lets sue the caveman for understanding and using fire and sue them for global warming. These people are simply stupid.


4 posted on 01/26/2012 6:51:56 PM PST by edcoil (It is not over until I win.)
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To: edcoil

I am an ex-Para.

I would have fought, just like many members of my family in both wars. I know what I would have done.


5 posted on 01/26/2012 6:59:34 PM PST by the scotsman (I)
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To: hinckley buzzard

Ireland and Sweden can at least take comfort in knowing that they didn’t save the Soviet Union so that it could spread the horrors that it did for the decades since the end of WWII; Americans killed in Korea and Vietnam paid the price of America’s folly in saving “Uncle Joe” so that he could enslave so many...

Talk to eastern Europeans about the role of the western allies in WWII; they bore the brunt of both Nazism and Stalinism (with Stalinism lingering for 45 years instead of 4).


6 posted on 01/26/2012 7:00:38 PM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: hinckley buzzard

and by denying ports for allied escort vessels convoys in the early yeard had lighter escort units resulting in more sinkings and deaths of merchant seaman by u-boats. sweden doesn’t get a free pass but ireland didn;t have the nazi army across the irsih sea ready to invade if they didn’t get what they wanted.


7 posted on 01/26/2012 7:04:27 PM PST by bravo whiskey (If the little things really bother you, maybe it's because the big things are going well.)
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To: proxy_user

“The main reason they did it was because Germany was the enemy of England, and they hated England.”

The main reason Catholics in general in Europe saw no point in the war was that in Spain from 1936 to 1939, over 7,000 priests (including thirteen bishops) were killed by forces supported by Stalin and the Popular Front government of France. The war ended (and the Catholic Church survived) in Spain because Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini sent aid to General Franco. While the non-Catholic US and UK were comfortable aiding Stalin, I can understand why a Catholic with an informed conscience would just sit it out (as the Axis weren’t saints either).

Americans should bear in mind that while American Marines were dying in the Pacific, while Japan held US islands and part of Alaska, while Americans at home faced rationing so we could export food to the Soviet Union, Stalin and the Japanese had a truce that lasted until the final weeks of the war.

These are facts that dispel many myths about the war and anger some people, but they are facts nonetheless.


8 posted on 01/26/2012 7:08:02 PM PST by kearnyirish2
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: hinckley buzzard
Not that Hairbrain S(hithead). Truman's betrayal of the Philippine troops was laudable either.
10 posted on 01/26/2012 7:10:14 PM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: bravo whiskey

Ireland had a foreign army already on it’s soil in the north (regardless of your position on Ireland, that is exactly what it was); no reason to join that side.

Ireland was serious about it’s neutrality (unlike the US, which violated neutrality openly in both theaters prior to officially entering the war). Like most of the world, Ireland had no stake in a war between Lucifer and Satan.


11 posted on 01/26/2012 7:12:16 PM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: the scotsman

The US and Canada did exactly the same. Look up the “St. Louis”.


12 posted on 01/26/2012 7:32:22 PM PST by Hardraade (http://junipersec.wordpress.com (nobody gives me warheads anyway))
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To: proxy_user

Also why Joe Kennedy loved Adolf Hitler.


13 posted on 01/26/2012 7:36:22 PM PST by Thane_Banquo
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To: kearnyirish2

Several German Lutherans, including the now famous Niemoller, supported Hitler at first precisely because they thought he would stand up to the Godless Communists. Of course, he turned out to be a Godless socialist in his own right, and the confessing Lutherans courageous enough to listen to Bonhoeffer soon saw the error of their ways during the Kirchenkampf.

Still, doesn’t explain Ireland not giving Jews asylum. Admittedly, FDR refused asylum to them as well, but that was simply because FDR was an evil tyrannical power-mad SOB. Not sure what the Irish excuse was.


14 posted on 01/26/2012 7:45:27 PM PST by Thane_Banquo
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To: edcoil

>> These people are simply stupid.

Your post is confusing. Which people are stupid? The Irish? The author? The cavemen?


15 posted on 01/26/2012 7:53:35 PM PST by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: kearnyirish2

>> Like most of the world, Ireland had no stake in a war between Lucifer and Satan.

In your metaphor, who exactly is Lucifer, and who is Satan?


16 posted on 01/26/2012 7:55:38 PM PST by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: Nervous Tick

He sounds like a Paul supporter. America is always Satan, don’t you know? Ron Paul told me so.


17 posted on 01/26/2012 8:21:17 PM PST by Thane_Banquo
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To: kearnyirish2

Lucifer and Satan? Really? Ireland is such an arbiter of what is good and right.......


18 posted on 01/26/2012 8:40:55 PM PST by ExpatGator (I hate Illinois Nazis!)
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To: Tzar

‘Historically, Ireland has been the least anti-Semitic country in Europe.’

Crap. There’s no history of anti-semitism in Scotland or Wales. Or several of the Scandanavian countries.

And there IS a history of anti-semitism in Ireland. The History Channel did an excellent documentary recently on the bar on Jewish refugees, antisemitism within the Irish Govt in the late 30’s right through to the 70’s, and there is a history of anti-semitism in the Irish Catholic Church.

And the Ulster (protestant) Irish are historically much less opposed to Judaism religiously, and therefore culturally than the Catholic Irish.

If anyone is ‘least antisemitic’, its the Scots and the Welsh. Not the Irish.


19 posted on 01/26/2012 9:35:08 PM PST by the scotsman (I)
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To: the scotsman
“’Ireland has the honour of being the only country which never persecuted the Jews...because she never let them in’, Mr Deasy said solemnly.”
20 posted on 01/26/2012 9:41:07 PM PST by decal (I'm not rude, I don't suffer fools is all.)
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To: Nervous Tick

“In your metaphor, who exactly is Lucifer, and who is Satan?”

Hitler was Lucifer and Stalin was Satan; they were the main opponents of WWII. No theater of the war saw combat to the extent of the Eastern Front.


21 posted on 01/27/2012 2:33:38 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: Thane_Banquo

“Still, doesn’t explain Ireland not giving Jews asylum. Admittedly, FDR refused asylum to them as well, but that was simply because FDR was an evil tyrannical power-mad SOB. Not sure what the Irish excuse was.”

I’m not sure of Ireland’s logic, but the refusal of entry certainly occurred prior to anyone’s knowledge of death camps; at the time most countries denied them entry the camps didn’t even exist yet. Seeing many FReepers reaction to absorbing 10% of Mexico’s population today, I’d imagine that Ireland couldn’t absorb them - it was primarily an agrarian country (”Angela’s Ashes” can give you an idea as to the hunger in WWII Ireland).

Irish people certainly don’t have to explain themselves to Lutherans in that regard; Martin Luther’s own words about Jews played no small role in the mass murder.


22 posted on 01/27/2012 2:42:18 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: ExpatGator

“Ireland is such an arbiter of what is good and right...”

I’ll trust their judgement; until the 1990s they outlawed divorce, they still outlaw abortion, they’ve never colonized darker people, never fought in a war on someone else’s soil...how many Western countries can say that?


23 posted on 01/27/2012 2:47:19 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: the scotsman

Ireland’s Christianity makes it a target for haters; we’re God’s people. You can include the “Ulster Irish” with your ridiculous rose-colored view of Scots’ lack of anti-Semitism, since they are Scots themselves; I live in a town with one of the highest concentrations of Scots on the East Coast, and they’re hardly “righteous Gentiles” in that regard.


24 posted on 01/27/2012 2:53:53 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: kearnyirish2

No sorry, I am talking about the Scots in Scotland, and btw, I include the Catholic Scots in that. In Scotland, there is no history of anti-semitism. That is fact, not rose tinted opinion.

As per the Ulster Scots, whilst we agree they have historically been bigoted, it has not been against Jews.


25 posted on 01/27/2012 4:52:01 AM PST by the scotsman (I)
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To: kearnyirish2

Luther said some bizarre and reprehensible things in his old age, to be sure. But acually, Luther’s words played a very small role, especially since the Nazi regime was the first time most Lutherans had ever heard those words of Luther. Bonhoeffer, who often quoted Luther in his writings, had never even heard the words in question before the Nazis tried to quote them.

The Lutheran church was the home to many converted Jews, several of whom were pastors. The Kirchenkampf began when the Nazis tried to force Lutherans to kick Jewish converts out of their congregations and then attempted to deny pastorhood to Jewish pastors. Then they made it illegal for Lutheran pastors to teach from the Old Testament, something Luther and every other Christian leader throughout history had done regularly.

The fact is the only Lutheran or Catholic people in Germany who remained loyal to Hitler were those who really didn’t care much for their faith—Easter and Christmas Christians. Of course, as I’m sure you’re aware, those kind constitute the great bulk of society.

Hitler and his ilk abused the image of Luther largely for secular purposes. Luther was seen by many Germans through a secular lense: He had basically invented the modern German language and created a sense of national German identity. It was this that the Nazis exploited. Th only “Christians” who might have been moved by Luthers later writings in Jews were cultural Christians—CINOs—anyway.

However, it was from among the leadership of the tens or hundreds of thousands of confessing Lutherans, as well as not a few devout Catholics, that Hitler took some of his first political prisoners. And the Valkyrie plot was led by von Stauffenburg—a devout Catholic—with support from devout Lutherans in the Abwehr and the conservative Prussian officer class.

In fact, together the Christians probably could have toppled Hitler if they had ever been able to get organized. You had some who wanted a form of democratic Christian socialism, others who wanted to bring back the Kaiser, and still others like Bonhoeffer who didn’t care much either way, so long as you got rid of Hitler.


26 posted on 01/27/2012 6:08:19 AM PST by Thane_Banquo
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Tzar

Firstly, Scotland IS a country. Scotland, England and NI are legally semi-independent entities within a greater union. Wales is technically part of England. How arrogant of you to tell a Scotsman about his own country.

Secondly, ENGLAND has a history of antisemitism, albeit much less than mainland Europe. Scotland, Wales and NI have no such history.

Thirdly, whilst we agree that Scandanavia has anti-semitism, I was referring to historical anti-semitism, in ancient, medieval and early modern times. Apologies if I didnt make that clear.

Lastly, although Ireland has had a low-level history of anti-semitism historically, it has had more than one bishop. Less than England, more than Scotland or Wales or NI, much less than mainland Europe.


28 posted on 01/27/2012 10:03:52 AM PST by the scotsman (I)
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: kearnyirish2

Any country can pick and choose the good things that they want to tout. Methinks you be leaving out a wee bit of some Irish history from those cherry-picked goodies.


30 posted on 01/27/2012 10:55:46 AM PST by ExpatGator (I hate Illinois Nazis!)
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To: ExpatGator

“Methinks you be leaving out a wee bit of some Irish history from those cherry-picked goodies.”

You’re right; in our pagan past we raided the coast of Britain, even stealing a fellow named Patrick.

I reflect on the sins of my forebears with shame...


31 posted on 01/27/2012 11:33:35 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: the scotsman; Tzar

Scotland isn’t a country, and I’m disappointed that FIFA lets them field a separate soccer team while we in NJ have to be stuck on the US team (even Northern Ireland & Wales have their own teams - surely their not countries as well, are they?). They share a monarch, currency, everything that binds the United States into one nation.

We can debate this until we’re blue in the face, but to anyone with eyes Scotland isn’t a country.


32 posted on 01/27/2012 11:38:36 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: Thane_Banquo

Luther played a big role in forming German identity (they didn’t unite until 1871, and even that excluded Austria), and I’m not criticizing Lutherans in my associating his writings with Nazism. I’m well aware that Luther was a Catholic priest.


33 posted on 01/27/2012 11:41:50 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: kearnyirish2; Tzar

The UK is a unitary state.

England, Scotland and NI ARE countries even though they are part of the UK. They are the constituent countries that make up said state.


34 posted on 01/28/2012 4:29:37 PM PST by the scotsman (I)
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To: the scotsman

“England, Scotland and NI ARE countries even though they are part of the UK.”

They are no different than American states; our states signed an agreement to unite as a “United States of America”. I’m sure we’ll never see eye to eye on this.

(What kind of “country” is Northern Ireland? They didn’t even have the historical independence Scotland had centuries ago. That’s even harder to swallow than modern Scotland.)


35 posted on 01/28/2012 4:41:30 PM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: kearnyirish2

Perhaps you should gracefully admit that Scottish/British posters here know more about their country than an American like yourself.


36 posted on 01/29/2012 5:50:01 AM PST by the scotsman (I)
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additional:
37 posted on 01/29/2012 6:40:40 AM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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To: the scotsman

My great uncle was killed at the Somme in France in 1917.

He joined the British Army in Dublin as did thousands of his fellow Irishmen to fight against the Germans.

Sadly if he would have survived WWI he would have undergone massive hate against him by the Irish when he returned from the war.


38 posted on 01/29/2012 8:34:23 AM PST by KeyLargo
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To: proxy_user
The main reason they did it was because Germany was the enemy of England, and they hated England.

So did a lot of Irish-Americans, including one Joe P. Kennedy.

39 posted on 01/29/2012 8:36:13 AM PST by dfwgator (Don't wake up in a roadside ditch. Get rid of Romney.)
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To: the scotsman

“Perhaps you should gracefully admit that Scottish/British posters here know more about their country than an American like yourself.”

You’re right; Brits know more about their country than I do.


40 posted on 01/29/2012 8:59:05 AM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: KeyLargo

Your great uncle was a fine and brave man, I’d shake his hand if he were alive today. My great-grandfather fought at Passchendeale.


41 posted on 01/29/2012 10:18:10 AM PST by the scotsman (I)
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To: kearnyirish2

I am not being rude for the hell of it. Apologies if I am coming across as so.

Scotland, England and NI are countries. I understand your argument, but they are legally semi-independent countries within (and that consitute) a larger state (the UK, which is a state, not a country). Their subsuming to the UK dosent mean that are not countries in their own right.

Again, apologies for any nippyness.


42 posted on 01/29/2012 10:22:06 AM PST by the scotsman (I)
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To: the scotsman

Thank you.

My great grandfather’s name is inscribe on this memorial since his and thousands of other young men’s bodies were obliterated or never found.

The Thiepval Memorial to the Missing of the Somme battlefields bears the names of 72,194 officers and men of the United Kingdom and South African forces.

These men died in the Somme battle sector before 20th March 1918 and have no known grave. The date of 20th March was the day before the German Army launched a large-scale offensive, codenamed “Operation Michael”, against the British Army Front in the sector of the Somme.

Over 90 percent of those commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial died in the 1916 Battles of the Somme between July and November 1916.

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/somme/memorial-thiepval.htm


43 posted on 01/29/2012 10:26:00 AM PST by KeyLargo
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To: the scotsman

No apologies necessary; we’re grownups. We agree to disagree.


44 posted on 01/29/2012 2:05:18 PM PST by kearnyirish2
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To: Thane_Banquo

Thank you very much, Sir.

You wrote in a very elucidating manner about Luther’s obscure quote, its appropriation by the Hitlerites and the importance of religion to many (non-Communist) members of the Resistance movement.
As somebody who lost a great-uncle to the Nazi terror, I would like to say thank you :-)

P. S.:By the way, Mr. kearnyirish is - I’m sorry to say - not right in stating that the German national identity didn’t evolve until the foundation of the Second Empire in 1871.
In fact, our national identity as a people sharing a common language and culture, as well as a monarch, evolved largely in the eleventh century A. D.


45 posted on 01/30/2012 6:34:12 AM PST by Roadgeek
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To: Roadgeek
In fact, our national identity as a people sharing a common language and culture, as well as a monarch, evolved largely in the eleventh century A. D.

I recently read Metaxas's excellent new biography of Bonhoeffer, where the author discusses these issues. I was under the impression that Luther was a central figure in unifying the various German dialects into a single language because he needed a unified language into which to translate the Bible.

At any rate, Metaxas's book is exceptional, and clearly demonstrates that the leading opposition to Hitler came from religious Lutherans and Catholics. He also shows that it was Hitler's intention all along to rid "greater Germany" of Christians (one of his intellectual father Nietzsche's two "slave religions") once he no longer needed them for political purposes.

Nazism was founded on a Darwinian ethic, survival of the fittest, with all the attendant brutality such an ethic elicits. Marx applied this to what he called the "class struggle," and Hitler applied it to what he considered a racial struggle ("Mein Kampf" means "my struggle"). Both resulted in practice in the same kind of brutality and tyranny.

46 posted on 01/30/2012 6:56:45 AM PST by Thane_Banquo
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To: Thane_Banquo

Yes, and Mr. Metaxas, whose book I haven’t read yet, but intend to, is absolutely right about the commom German language, which Luther created.
It served to strengthen the bonds within a people which was, in spite of a common political allegiance (to the Holy Roman Empire) culturally still relatively heterogenous - though not more so than 16th century France or Spain.


47 posted on 01/30/2012 7:08:31 AM PST by Roadgeek
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