Skip to comments.Irish minister admits neutrality policy during WW2 was 'morally bankrupt'
Posted on 01/26/2012 6:46:31 PM PST by the scotsman
'Ireland has admitted for the first time that its 'morally bankrupt' regime of the 1930s denied visas to desperate Jews trying to escape from Nazi persecution.
Justice Minister Alan Shatter said that, following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Ireland's anti-semitic Berlin ambassador Charles Bewley ensured 'the doors to this state were kept firmly closed to German Jewish families trying to flee'.
The admission came as he apologised for the way brave soldiers who 'deserted' the Irish Army to fight with the Allies during the Second World War were treated.
He suggested the 4,983 servicemen, who were barred from jobs and State pensions on their return and condemned to poverty and stigma for the rest of their lives, were now likely to receive an official pardon.'
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
“In your metaphor, who exactly is Lucifer, and who is Satan?”
Hitler was Lucifer and Stalin was Satan; they were the main opponents of WWII. No theater of the war saw combat to the extent of the Eastern Front.
“Still, doesnt explain Ireland not giving Jews asylum. Admittedly, FDR refused asylum to them as well, but that was simply because FDR was an evil tyrannical power-mad SOB. Not sure what the Irish excuse was.”
I’m not sure of Ireland’s logic, but the refusal of entry certainly occurred prior to anyone’s knowledge of death camps; at the time most countries denied them entry the camps didn’t even exist yet. Seeing many FReepers reaction to absorbing 10% of Mexico’s population today, I’d imagine that Ireland couldn’t absorb them - it was primarily an agrarian country (”Angela’s Ashes” can give you an idea as to the hunger in WWII Ireland).
Irish people certainly don’t have to explain themselves to Lutherans in that regard; Martin Luther’s own words about Jews played no small role in the mass murder.
“Ireland is such an arbiter of what is good and right...”
I’ll trust their judgement; until the 1990s they outlawed divorce, they still outlaw abortion, they’ve never colonized darker people, never fought in a war on someone else’s soil...how many Western countries can say that?
Ireland’s Christianity makes it a target for haters; we’re God’s people. You can include the “Ulster Irish” with your ridiculous rose-colored view of Scots’ lack of anti-Semitism, since they are Scots themselves; I live in a town with one of the highest concentrations of Scots on the East Coast, and they’re hardly “righteous Gentiles” in that regard.
No sorry, I am talking about the Scots in Scotland, and btw, I include the Catholic Scots in that. In Scotland, there is no history of anti-semitism. That is fact, not rose tinted opinion.
As per the Ulster Scots, whilst we agree they have historically been bigoted, it has not been against Jews.
Luther said some bizarre and reprehensible things in his old age, to be sure. But acually, Luther’s words played a very small role, especially since the Nazi regime was the first time most Lutherans had ever heard those words of Luther. Bonhoeffer, who often quoted Luther in his writings, had never even heard the words in question before the Nazis tried to quote them.
The Lutheran church was the home to many converted Jews, several of whom were pastors. The Kirchenkampf began when the Nazis tried to force Lutherans to kick Jewish converts out of their congregations and then attempted to deny pastorhood to Jewish pastors. Then they made it illegal for Lutheran pastors to teach from the Old Testament, something Luther and every other Christian leader throughout history had done regularly.
The fact is the only Lutheran or Catholic people in Germany who remained loyal to Hitler were those who really didn’t care much for their faith—Easter and Christmas Christians. Of course, as I’m sure you’re aware, those kind constitute the great bulk of society.
Hitler and his ilk abused the image of Luther largely for secular purposes. Luther was seen by many Germans through a secular lense: He had basically invented the modern German language and created a sense of national German identity. It was this that the Nazis exploited. Th only “Christians” who might have been moved by Luthers later writings in Jews were cultural Christians—CINOs—anyway.
However, it was from among the leadership of the tens or hundreds of thousands of confessing Lutherans, as well as not a few devout Catholics, that Hitler took some of his first political prisoners. And the Valkyrie plot was led by von Stauffenburg—a devout Catholic—with support from devout Lutherans in the Abwehr and the conservative Prussian officer class.
In fact, together the Christians probably could have toppled Hitler if they had ever been able to get organized. You had some who wanted a form of democratic Christian socialism, others who wanted to bring back the Kaiser, and still others like Bonhoeffer who didn’t care much either way, so long as you got rid of Hitler.
Firstly, Scotland IS a country. Scotland, England and NI are legally semi-independent entities within a greater union. Wales is technically part of England. How arrogant of you to tell a Scotsman about his own country.
Secondly, ENGLAND has a history of antisemitism, albeit much less than mainland Europe. Scotland, Wales and NI have no such history.
Thirdly, whilst we agree that Scandanavia has anti-semitism, I was referring to historical anti-semitism, in ancient, medieval and early modern times. Apologies if I didnt make that clear.
Lastly, although Ireland has had a low-level history of anti-semitism historically, it has had more than one bishop. Less than England, more than Scotland or Wales or NI, much less than mainland Europe.
Any country can pick and choose the good things that they want to tout. Methinks you be leaving out a wee bit of some Irish history from those cherry-picked goodies.
“Methinks you be leaving out a wee bit of some Irish history from those cherry-picked goodies.”
You’re right; in our pagan past we raided the coast of Britain, even stealing a fellow named Patrick.
I reflect on the sins of my forebears with shame...
Scotland isn’t a country, and I’m disappointed that FIFA lets them field a separate soccer team while we in NJ have to be stuck on the US team (even Northern Ireland & Wales have their own teams - surely their not countries as well, are they?). They share a monarch, currency, everything that binds the United States into one nation.
We can debate this until we’re blue in the face, but to anyone with eyes Scotland isn’t a country.
Luther played a big role in forming German identity (they didn’t unite until 1871, and even that excluded Austria), and I’m not criticizing Lutherans in my associating his writings with Nazism. I’m well aware that Luther was a Catholic priest.
The UK is a unitary state.
England, Scotland and NI ARE countries even though they are part of the UK. They are the constituent countries that make up said state.
“England, Scotland and NI ARE countries even though they are part of the UK.”
They are no different than American states; our states signed an agreement to unite as a “United States of America”. I’m sure we’ll never see eye to eye on this.
(What kind of “country” is Northern Ireland? They didn’t even have the historical independence Scotland had centuries ago. That’s even harder to swallow than modern Scotland.)
Perhaps you should gracefully admit that Scottish/British posters here know more about their country than an American like yourself.
My great uncle was killed at the Somme in France in 1917.
He joined the British Army in Dublin as did thousands of his fellow Irishmen to fight against the Germans.
Sadly if he would have survived WWI he would have undergone massive hate against him by the Irish when he returned from the war.
So did a lot of Irish-Americans, including one Joe P. Kennedy.
“Perhaps you should gracefully admit that Scottish/British posters here know more about their country than an American like yourself.”
You’re right; Brits know more about their country than I do.