Skip to comments.Obama Got Served
Posted on 02/01/2012 7:17:02 PM PST by Sallyven
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“Natural Born Citizen” has ALWAYS meant “Citizen at the Moment of Birth” -—
However, Congress has changed the rules, more than once, as to which New Borns qualify, and which do not.
(Slighly paraphrased, I think.)
Your “Case Law” does not control in this matter, not at all.
It is entirely possible to despise Obama and STILL disagree with you.
Congress, by simple legislation, can deny Citizenship to “Anchor Babies”
This case is not about President Obama. It’s about Candidate Obama. If he wants to be on the GA ballot he needed to show up. Judge Malihi said that it could be that Obama would not be required to show up but the pleading of “I’m too busy” doesn’t cut it in a court of law - so if Obama wanted to have a LEGAL reason to not have to honor the subpoena he needed to present the legal argument. He presented nothing so Malihi said he had to be there. He wasn’t. He had his chance. If there was an argument that would have excused his presence he should have used it. He didn’t even have enough respect for the rule of law to do that.
I hope he is found in contempt of court, because he has shown contempt for the rule of law in EVERYTHING he has done, and this very public, blatant display is for no reason. Why should he watch a live feed of the hearing if he was “too busy” to actually be there? That was a load of bullcrap, and I think we all know why he wasn’t there.
I think you’re wrong-—the cocktail party republicans are more concerned with getting the senate and keeping their cushy jobs. That’s why they want the “mayonnaise sandwich on white bread” Mittens.
Many are complicit in the non-vetting of Bath-House Barry prior to the elections.
Why no reaction to the TWO Certificates of Nomination Pelosi and DNC Secretary Alice Travis Germond put out? They KNEW he was ineligible and tried to cover for him.
I'll never survive Laurence Tribe not liking me, sigh....
Btw... appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. It is the definition of the concept that matters.
I wonder if applying to be put on GA’s ballot means that the person is subject to GA’s authority.
The guy has so many names who knows which one is the legal one?
You challenged folks taking the Vattel position to cite law in support of their position, and someone responded with Minor v. Happersett, which defined “natural born citizen” in the same way Vattel defines “native”: born within the country to parents both of whom were citizens, a definition Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. fails to according to all accounts of his parentage, since his father was a British subject at the time of his birth.
You now assert that legislative law trumps common law based case law, as indeed it does.
So, rather than blustering “Baloney!” at fellow FReepers, please cite a Federal (or Georgia) statute defining “natural born citizen” in a way at variance with Minor v. Happersett.
And every single scientist says that man global warming is real.
Why don't you provide a logical reason why the definition of a NBC doesn't only consist of being born to USC parents.
I’m not sure that’s the question. The president is a citizen like anyone else and is subject to the courts like other citizens. If Obama were being ordered to appear in his capacity as president, a separation of powers argument could be made, but the question of eligibility to run is not related to his current status as president, and would apply equally to a private person running for their first term. If such a person would be subject to the court’s subpoena power, why should Obama escape it by virtue of the question being as to his eligibility for a second term rather than a first?
For what it’s worth, I don’t buy the various birther arguments, but I also wonder how, in a putative situation where a non-citizen did try to run, we’d ever get to the bottom of it. Candidates are not above the law, and people ought to have a mechanism to challenge eligibility.
Rubio is a citizen. Were both his parents citizens when he was born? If not, he’s not a NATURAL born citizen and can’t be president or vice president.
“Birthers” will go after any illegal president - GOP or DNC. It’s a constitution thang. No foreign influence and ties via family in the oval office. Blood runs thicker than water.
....for all the good it will do.....
You’re showing your bias.
“However, Congress has changed the rules, more than once, as to which New Borns qualify, and which do not. “
You may be right—congresscritters do the damndest things!
Bath-House Barry Propped Up By Congress!
Was Obama on the primary ballot in Florida?
If so, sounds like it’s time for any FL voter to challenge his eligibility - within the next 9 days.
Otherwise the time will be the day after the general election.
I found the quote below on line, purporting to be from the US Supreme Court, Minor v. Happersett,1875.
If this is a true and accurate quote, it contradicts your definitive statement:
Natural Born Citizen has ALWAYS meant Citizen at the Moment of Birth
Since I am not a lawyer, as you appear to be, please enlighten me. Thank you.
“At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.”
I represented MYSELF in the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals once, and I WON, against multimillionaire abortionist George Tiller.
You kick everyone out of the Conservative movement who does not agree with your crackpot theories, and you will have about enough people left to fill a small room and clap for your crazy rants.
What are you going to do with this information (evidence?) that you have been teasing us with for the past couple of weeks or longer?
What outlet do you require?
...or whether the law even applies to this president?
I guess that would depend upon which whited sepulcher you asked.
Hopefully it’s enough to try him for treason!
A Cordial, Legal PING.
“someone responded with Minor v. Happersett, which defined natural born citizen in the same way Vattel defines native: born within the country to parents both of whom were citizens”
What Minor says regarding NBC:
“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.”
If Georgia decides to use Minor to ban Obama from the ballot, Georgia will have its butt handed to it by the federal courts.
The only thing that gives some reason to think he was adopted is a school registration form in Indonisa that lists him as Soetoro. In my opinion that really means nothing as I had a step-father and a father. My step-father never adopted us, but when I registered for school sometimes I registered under my step-fathers last name and sometimes under my legal last name, my fathers.
What’s the source for that?
“Want”-ing to is the bar for following
the Constitution and rule of law?
You’re mighty exorcized for someone not
an active participant for 3-1/2 years
here on this issue.
Why the long face?
Might be good for you to scan the thousands
of those threads by clicking on keyword “natural
born citizen” up top in the keyword list.
Consent of the governed ...
And as the owner of this site says:
“Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God!!”
Natural Born Citizen means Citizen at the moment of Birth, and NOTHING ELSE.
“I am not an attorney...”
from Kansas58’s “about” page.
(but, kudos to Kansas58 for representing himself in the Tiller case.)
Remember—”online” info concerning Minor vs. Happersett MAY have been tampered with—see the Justia.com link about this:
No, it does NOT control the term, today.
Legislation has been passed, since that time, which now controls.
Perhaps, but even then something will be gained: an actual definition of the phrase "natural born citizen". And it will be interesting to read the "reasoning" by which a Federal court taking the position you suggest overturns the definition given in Minor to give a different definition of the phrase.
“I. In construing any act of legislation, whether a statute enacted by the legislature or a constitution established by the people as the supreme law of the land, regard is to be had not only to all parts of the act itself, and of any former act of the same lawmaking power of which the act in question is an amendment, but also to the condition and to the history [p654] of the law as previously existing, and in the light of which the new act must be read and interpreted.
The Constitution of the United States, as originally adopted, uses the words “citizen of the United States,” and “natural-born citizen of the United States.” By the original Constitution, every representative in Congress is required to have been “seven years a citizen of the United States,” and every Senator to have been “nine years a citizen of the United States.” and “no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President.” The Fourteenth Article of Amendment, besides declaring that
all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside,
also declares that
no State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
And the Fifteenth Article of Amendment declares that
the right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States, or by any State, on account of race, color or previous condition of servitude.
The Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words, either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except insofar as this is done by the affirmative declaration that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.” In this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the Constitution. Minor v. Happersett, 21 Wall. 162; Ex parte Wilson, 114 U.S. 417, 422; Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 624, 625; Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 465. The language of the Constitution, as has been well said, could not be understood without reference to the common law. Kent Com. 336; Bradley, J., in Moore v. United States, 91 U.S. 270, 274. [p655]
In Minor v. Happersett, Chief Justice Waite, when construing, in behalf of the court, the very provision of the Fourteenth Amendment now in question, said: “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.” And he proceeded to resort to the common law as an aid in the construction of this provision. 21 Wall. 167.
In Smith v. Alabama, Mr. Justice Matthews, delivering the judgment of the court, said:
There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes. . . . There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.
124 U.S. 478.
II. The fundamental principle of the common law with regard to English nationality was birth within the allegiance, also called “ligealty,” “obedience,” “faith,” or “power” of the King. The principle embraced all persons born within the King’s allegiance and subject to his protection. Such allegiance and protection were mutual — as expressed in the maxim protectio trahit subjectionem, et subjectio protectionem — and were not restricted to natural-born subjects and naturalized subjects, or to those who had taken an oath of allegiance, but were predicable of aliens in amity so long as they were within the kingdom. Children, born in England, of such aliens were therefore natural-born subjects. But the children, born within the realm, of foreign ambassadors, or the children of alien enemies, born during and within their hostile occupation of part of the King’s dominions, were not natural-born subjects because not born within the allegiance, the obedience, or the power, or, as would be said at this day, within the jurisdiction, of the King.
This fundamental principle, with these qualifications or [p656] explanations of it, was clearly, though quaintly, stated in the leading case, known as Calvin’s Case, or the Case of the Postnati, decided in 1608, after a hearing in the Exchequer Chamber before the Lord Chancellor and all the Judges of England, and reported by Lord Coke and by Lord Ellesmere. Calvin’s Case, 7 Rep. 1, 4b-6a, 18a, 18b; Ellesmere on Postnati, 62-64; S.C., 2 Howell’s State Trials, 559, 607, 613-617, 639, 640, 659, 679.
The English authorities ever since are to the like effect. Co.Lit. 8a, 128b, Lord Hale, in Hargrave’s Law Tracts, 210, an in 1 Hale P.C. 61, 62; 1 Bl.Com. 366, 369, 370, 374; 4 Bl.Com. 74, 92; Lord Kenyon, in Doe v. Jones, 4 T.R. 300, 308; Cockburn on Nationality, 7; Dicey Conflict of Laws, p. 173-177, 741.
In Udny v. Udny, (1869) L.R. 1 H.L. Sc. 441, the point decided was one of inheritance, depending upon the question whether the domicil of the father was in England or in Scotland, he being in either alternative a British subject. Lord Chancellor Hatherley said: “The question of naturalization and of allegiance is distinct from that of domicil.” P. 452. Lord Westbury, in the passage relied on by the counsel for the United States, began by saying:
The law of England, and of almost all civilized countries, ascribes to each individual at his birth two distinct legal states or conditions: one, by virtue of which he becomes the subject of some particular country, binding him by the tie of natural allegiance, and which may be called his political status; another by virtue of which he has ascribed to him the character of a citizen of some particular country, and as such is possessed of certain municipal rights, and subject to certain obligations, which latter character is the civil status or condition of the individual, and may be quite different from his political status.
And then, while maintaining that the civil status is universally governed by the single principle of domicil, domicilium, the criterion established by international law for the purpose of determining civil status, and the basis on which
the personal rights of the party, that is to say, the law which determines his majority or minority, his marriage, succession, testacy or intestacy, [p657] must depend,
he yet distinctly recognized that a man’s political status, his country, patria, and his “nationality, that is, natural allegiance,” “may depend on different laws in different countries.” Pp. 457, 460. He evidently used the word “citizen” not as equivalent to “subject,” but rather to “inhabitant,” and had no thought of impeaching the established rule that all persons born under British dominion are natural-born subjects.
Lord Chief Justice Cockburn, in the same year, reviewing the whole matter, said:
By the common law of England, every person born within the dominions of the Crown, no matter whether of English or of foreign parents, and, in the latter case, whether the parents were settled or merely temporarily sojourning, in the country, was an English subject, save only the children of foreign ambassadors (who were excepted because their fathers carried their own nationality with them), or a child born to a foreigner during the hostile occupation of any part of the territories of England. No effect appears to have been given to descent as a source of nationality.
Cockburn on Nationality, 7.
Mr. Dicey, in his careful and thoughtful Digest of the Law of England with reference to the Conflict of Laws, published in 1896, states the following propositions, his principal rules being printed below in italics:
“British subject” means any person who owes permanent allegiance to the Crown. “Permanent” allegiance is used to distinguish the allegiance of a British subject from the allegiance of an alien who, because he is within the British dominions, owes “temporary” allegiance to the Crown. “Natural-born British subject” means a British subject who has become a British subject at the moment of his birth.” “Subject to the exceptions hereinafter mentioned, any person who (whatever the nationality of his parents) is born within the British dominions is a natural-born British subject. This rule contains the leading principle of English law on the subject of British nationality.
The exceptions afterwards mentioned by Mr. Dicey are only these two:
1. Any person who (his father being an alien enemy) is born in a part of the British dominions, which at the time of such [p658] person’s birth is in hostile occupation, is an alien.
2. Any person whose father (being an alien) is at the time of such person’s birth an ambassador or other diplomatic agent accredited to the Crown by the Sovereign of a foreign State is (though born within the British dominions) an alien.
And he adds:
The exceptional and unimportant instances in which birth within the British dominions does not of itself confer British nationality are due to the fact that, though at common law nationality or allegiance in substance depended on the place of a person’s birth, it in theory, at least, depended not upon the locality of a man’s birth, but upon his being born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the King of England, and it might occasionally happen that a person was born within the dominions without being born within the allegiance, or, in other words, under the protection and control of, the Crown.
Dicey Conflict of Laws, pp. 173-177, 741.
It thus clearly appears that, by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the Crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, the jurisdiction of the English Sovereign, and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign State or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.
III. The same rule was in force in all the English Colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.”
Basis for that statement?
Congress can make anchor babies citizens, that is true, but they cannot amend the United States Constitution Article I without going through the Constitutional amendment process.
Article II and Amendment 14 forms of citizenship are different. All natural born citizens are citizens, but the reverse is not true. Not all citizens are Natural Born Citizens.
Congress has only once defined Natural Born Citizenship in the First Congress, Second Session, which was a person born in the US with two citizen parents. It was a definition found in a law concerning the naturalization process to make clear that NBCs need not go through the naturalization process.
There is no current definition on the books of which I am aware. The former statute, drafted by the framers who wrote the Constitution, is the best evidence of the framers’ intent (found in the second half of the law). Here is the text:
FIRST CONGRESS. SESS. II. CH. 4. 1790
CHAP. III.An act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization.
SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and Hours of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled. That any alien, being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof, on application to any common law court of record in any one of the states wherein he shall have resided for the term of one year at least, and making proof to the satisfaction of such court, that he is a person of good character, and taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by law, to support the constitution of the United States, which oath or affirmation such court shall administer; and the clerk of such court shall record such application, and the proceedings thereon; and thereupon such person shall be considered as a citizen of the United States. And the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States. And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States: Provided also, That no person heretofore proscribed by any state, shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid, except by an act of the legislature of the state in which such person was proscribed.
APPROVED, March 26, 1790.
Repealed January 29, 1795.
Mark Rubio is not an NBC because his parents did not become citizens (”naturalized”)until after his birth. I understand there are issues with Bobby Jindal as well, though I am not familiar with his case. Others have argued about Romney as well. There may be others. It matters to many people, and it is a rule that should be honored.
The same definition was provided in all of the scholarly legal works at the time of founding.
The only people who disagree with this are those with a non-NBC candidate they are supporting. I see little if any legal authority which challenges this precedent.
Natural Born Citizen has ALWAYS meant Citizen at the moment of Birth.
Common Law and Natural Law controlled who was, indeed, a Citizen at Birth, UNTIL Congress acted on that matter and until the 14th Amendment.
Case law based on Common Law and Natural Law is now MOOT on this matter.
Two citizen parents and born on US soil. Or put another way, to be a natural born citizen; one must have 2 parents who, at the time of the birth in question, are citizens of the United States. Obama's own evidence proves he was born a dual national US/UK, so he fails constitutional eligibility and is therefore ineligible to serve as President.
“Congress has only once defined Natural Born Citizenship in the First Congress, Second Session, which was a person born in the US with two citizen parents.”
Factually incorrect. The law said that a NBC included those born OVERSEAS of two citizen parents - as was true of the British term, natural born subject.
“and the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided...”