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Minn. Police, Attorneys Oppose Deadly Force Bill (Stand Your Ground)
KSTP.com ^ | 2/16/12 | Lauren Radomski/AP

Posted on 02/16/2012 7:53:15 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo

Key police chiefs and county prosecutors joined together on Thursday to urge Minnesota lawmakers to not pass legislation that would give people more freedom to use deadly force when protecting themselves.

The legislation creates the presumption that a person in their home or other dwelling who uses deadly force does so believing they are in danger of harm or death. The bill also removes the obligation for that person to retreat from such a situation. It's headed for a full Senate vote soon.

Dakota County Attorney James Backstrom said at a Capitol press conference that the bill shifts the standard to use deadly force from the current "reasonable person" standard to a more subjective one.

"Under this proposal, it would become what is in the person's mind as to whether they feel threatened," Backstrom said. "That is the controlling factor. Not what a reasonable person would have done when facing similar circumstances."

SNIP

Dayton said last week he wasn't sure if he'd sign or veto the bill, but mentioned that opposition from law enforcement officials would likely influence his decision.

(Excerpt) Read more at kstp.com ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: banglist; standyourground
Bravo. Sierra.

Dayton will veto this bill four seconds after he receives it.

Backstrom is a career liberal politician first and a lawyer, second.

It is said in Dakota County that the most dangerous place to be is between Jim Backstrom and a television camera or a radio microphone.

1 posted on 02/16/2012 7:53:24 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Aren’t most police chiefs in Minnesota big, union commie libs anyway?


2 posted on 02/16/2012 7:56:15 PM PST by FlingWingFlyer (You can only shovel so much crap into a melting pot before you have nothing but a pot full of crap.)
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3 posted on 02/16/2012 7:56:15 PM PST by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Crazy grandstanding perse-prosecutor. More dead or seriously wounded burglars? Fewer homeowners responsible for that situation in trouble? Allah, Gaia, or the god-of-the-week forbid?!?


4 posted on 02/16/2012 7:56:36 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

It is a basic truism everywhere: people deserve the scum they elect.
Congratulations, Minnesota.


5 posted on 02/16/2012 7:56:53 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Why do I carry a gun?
Because carrying a cop is too hard.


6 posted on 02/16/2012 7:59:46 PM PST by irishtenor (Everything in moderation, however, too much whiskey is just enough... Mark Twain)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

“If a person on their own property murders another person, this bill creates a very large loophole for their defense,” Kolb said.

Minneapolis Police Chief Tim Dolan said the bill would make serving warrants even more dangerous for officers. He held up a shield officers use when entering homes to illustrate how bullets can pass through it.

___________________________________________________________

It’s ironic they suggest this is bad because it puts the police at risk.

I thought the law was about law abiding citizens protecting themselves and their families.


7 posted on 02/16/2012 8:01:31 PM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

this bill would mean less business for both police and attorneys...of course they oppose it!


8 posted on 02/16/2012 8:04:05 PM PST by stefanbatory (Insert witty tagline here)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

Yeah, the rank-and-file (I know a few cops) are on board with this. It’s the Chiefs and the Sheriffs and the other politicians playing at being law enforcement that oppose anything that might hurt their re-election chances.


9 posted on 02/16/2012 8:06:38 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR: Now, More Than Ever.)
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To: Lancey Howard
It is a basic truism everywhere: people deserve the scum they elect.
Congratulations, Minnesota.


I stand by my assertion that Dayton was elected fraudulently.
10 posted on 02/16/2012 8:07:58 PM PST by Thorliveshere
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To: dragnet2

Sounds like a sucky “shield.”


11 posted on 02/16/2012 8:08:27 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: dragnet2

Dolan fails to mention his now-defunct goon squad(s) that had a penchant for shooting up the wrong house in a search for drug dealers that lived a half a block away.


12 posted on 02/16/2012 8:09:43 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR: Now, More Than Ever.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Why isn’t there more mutiny of beat-cops. It seems to be the same story almost anywhere. Beat cops would be glad to deal with dead burglars. While police chiefs have kittens about it.


13 posted on 02/16/2012 8:10:26 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: stefanbatory

That’s pretty close to the truth.


14 posted on 02/16/2012 8:13:08 PM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

I used to live in Dakota County (Eagan). My view of MN law enforcement - mostly in and around the Twin Cities - is a total joke.
Of course now San Antonio has to put up with McManus.


15 posted on 02/16/2012 8:14:27 PM PST by Fred Hayek (FUBO, the No Talent Pop Star pResident.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“Why isn’t there more mutiny of beat-cops?”

They need to feed their families.


16 posted on 02/16/2012 8:20:50 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR: Now, More Than Ever.)
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To: Fred Hayek

How you doin’, Fred?

Grew up in Eagan, still living in Dakota County.

Woof! Forgot about McDumbAss, for a moment there...

;-)


17 posted on 02/16/2012 8:23:53 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR: Now, More Than Ever.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

“reasonable person” can mean any damned thing someone wants to make it.


18 posted on 02/16/2012 8:26:08 PM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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Lawyers, police chiefs and the rest of the LEFT are offering an alternative Bill. Its called the Draw a Chalk Outline Around the Victims Act.
19 posted on 02/16/2012 8:28:09 PM PST by pyx (Rule#1.The LEFT lies.Rule#2.See Rule#1. IF THE LEFT CONTROLS THE LANGUAGE, IT CONTROLS THE ARGUMENT.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Evidently, YOU get it!

;-)


20 posted on 02/16/2012 8:28:54 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR: Now, More Than Ever.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
The "reasonable person" standard has been a part of our justice systems for many decades. If the journalism major has stated the situation correctly, then I think I would also oppose the change.

If you change the standard to be "what is in the actual person's mind" rather than "what a reasonable person in a similar situation would believe", you take the jury's judgment out of the equation. The prosecutor must actually PROVE what was in a person's mind at a crucial moment... pretty much an impossible task... and as the article states, a person could shoot anyone, even an invited guest, in his living room, and simply claim that what was in his mind at that time was appropriate for the statute. Even if hi fear was unreasonable or even utterly implausible, it would not matter. He would be protected by this new statute.

Again, if the opponents and the journalism major are stating things correctly, I'd agree, it's a bad change. As long as they allow self-defense in the home, and don't require any further retreat... and allow the reasonable person standard to guide the jury in determining whether a lethal response was proper... I think that's what is best, and least able to be abused by defense attorneys seeking loopholes for actual murderers.

21 posted on 02/16/2012 8:44:14 PM PST by Teacher317 ('Tis time to fear when tyrants seem to kiss.)
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To: Thorliveshere

Isn’t your Secy of State Mark Ritchie? If so, he’s a red, period. Go to www.keywiki.org, Search for Mark Ritchie and see the proof.

Minnesota has been the home of gutless law enforcement since the days of that fruitloop Minneapolis Chief of Police whose name stated with a “B” - Bourza?.

ALso one of third “Jihad-Central” hotspots in the US.

Yep. You get the scum you deserve, and the criminals get you.


22 posted on 02/16/2012 8:52:38 PM PST by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
All you have to remember is one thing:

The Constitution was designed to protect you from police chiefs and prosecutors such as these. So if they are "agin" it, it must be good.

23 posted on 02/16/2012 9:17:29 PM PST by old curmudgeon
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper

*I* don’t, because I didn’t vote in the freaks. The pinheads who did vote them in, do deserve it. I’ll get some more ammunition and protect my castle. The Twin Cities are a cesspool. That’s why I don’t live there any more.


24 posted on 02/16/2012 9:30:02 PM PST by Thorliveshere
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Yeah, it’s a real tragedy that the courts would have to start at a presumption of innocence for the homeowner/guy who defends himself, and put the burden of proof on the DA to prove otherwise.

That whole concept of presumed innocent until proven guilty is a real impediment to the DA and the cops and the courts when they have to go after law abiding citizens defending themselves from thug criminals.


25 posted on 02/16/2012 9:34:55 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo
It is said in Dakota County that the most dangerous place to be is between Jim Backstrom and a television camera or a radio microphone.

The old "unavoidable for comment" type, eh?

26 posted on 02/16/2012 10:21:02 PM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: irishtenor
Because carrying a cop is too hard.

The gun is also less likely to spontaneously shoot your dog or cuff your grandma.

27 posted on 02/16/2012 10:23:17 PM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

I’d need to read the bill on the standards, but if this is normal castle doctrine, I have no problem with it at all....and I’m an attorney.


28 posted on 02/16/2012 10:25:29 PM PST by Darren McCarty (Rick Santorum in the primary)
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To: dragnet2

You are correct.

Those that would shoot a cop on a warrant search will shoot the cop regardless of laws.

Cops make it well known who they are and why they are there when the bust down the door to serve the warrant.

of course they might be at the wrong door and if you have a dog kiss it goodbye.. But that’s a whole nother issue.


29 posted on 02/16/2012 10:48:14 PM PST by cableguymn (Good thing I am a conservative. Otherwise I would have to support Mittens like Republicans do.)
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To: Thorliveshere

To Thorliveshere:

There are more “pinheads” as leftist voters than sane centrists and conservatives, at least in Minnesota, so you don’t stand much of a chance until there is a major political purge of the Minnesota marxists and their supporters.

I left Maryland because it was going down the toilet due to the number of illiterate voters both white and black, who voted in crooks and commies. Look at what they did to Baltimore, once a great city, now a near Third-World cesspool of crime, drugs, and crooked politicians.


30 posted on 02/16/2012 10:53:35 PM PST by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Notice it is always the Chiefs that oppose citizens rights to defend themselves?
The only question needed to be asked of any Police Officer that wants to deny law abiding citizens the right to self defemse is ask okay it is YOU not ME sitting there with your kids watching TV when the drug crazed beserker kicks your door down nad is weilding a machete. Do you drop him or do you run?


31 posted on 02/16/2012 11:11:07 PM PST by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I sign up for the New American Revolution and the Crusades 2012?)
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To: cableguymn

That is the problem with “no-knock” warrants - there is no notice. On another thread about this there was a whole list of them at wrong addresses. Sometimes the cops got shot, sometimes the innocent victims.

Plus the thug’s ruse of yelling “police” as they are knocking down the door.

I’m really surprised that the cops brought their own safety up as an argument. And didn’t say something like the children’s safety, accidents, etc.


32 posted on 02/16/2012 11:32:05 PM PST by 21twelve
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Iw would kill to many democrats, so...No.


33 posted on 02/16/2012 11:45:18 PM PST by BigCinBigD
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
I left Maryland because it was going down the toilet due to the number of illiterate voters both white and black, who voted in crooks and commies. Look at what they did to Baltimore, once a great city, now a near Third-World cesspool of crime, drugs, and crooked politicians.

Depressing isn't it? What the hell can we do to undo all of this. Somehow, I just don't think it's possible anymore.
34 posted on 02/17/2012 5:33:10 AM PST by Thorliveshere
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo
It’s the Chiefs and the Sheriffs and the other politicians playing at being law enforcement that oppose anything that might hurt their re-election chances.

Two main reasons for their opposition:

1) After a few burglars/muggers get shot, these types of crime are likely to go down, reducing need for a larger police budget.

2) Burglars and muggers have mothers, brothers, sisters, girlfriends, other friends, etc, and these people VOTE. They tend to vote Democrat, and are a significant constituency.

35 posted on 02/17/2012 5:57:50 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Police states are called police states for a reason.

The biggest threat to my freedom is the government - that’s one reason we have the 2nd Amendment.


36 posted on 02/17/2012 6:03:04 AM PST by Harlan1196
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
“reasonable person” can mean any damned thing someone wants to make it.

“Reasonable person” is legal code for "Indict the citizen and have him prove his actions were reasonable to a jury, meanwhile bankrupting him in the process".

The text of the bill demands the presumption that the defender's action was reasonable if he shoots somebody who is in his house illegally, or attempting to forcibly enter, and is "immune from prosecution". If he's brought to trial anyway, the prosecution has the burden of proof to show that it was NOT self-defense.

37 posted on 02/17/2012 6:14:53 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: Teacher317
and as the article states, a person could shoot anyone, even an invited guest, in his living room, and simply claim that what was in his mind at that time was appropriate for the statute.

A link to the text of the bill is at post #37. The bill creates the presumption that if somebody UNLAWFULLY enters your home, you have reasonable grounds to use deadly force. Read for yourself.

When the defendant claims self-defense, the bill puts the burden of proof on the prosecutor. In cases where the shot person is a fellow resident, invited in, or otherwise was there legitimately, the presumption does not apply.

One thing it does do which is of value for victims of domestic violence, is that if the victim has an order of protection, and the subject of the order shows up, then the subject is there unlawfully and (in my opinion by my reading, and I am not a lawyer) may be shot on sight.

38 posted on 02/17/2012 6:26:47 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: irishtenor

Now that is an outstanding remark!!

Can I borrow it?


39 posted on 02/17/2012 8:06:58 AM PST by ops33 (Senior Master Sergeant, USAF (Retired))
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To: dragnet2

In MPLS, the boundary between criminal and police officer is blurred.


40 posted on 02/17/2012 10:24:39 AM PST by NorthStarStateConservative (A conservative, a moderate, and a liberal walk into a bar. Bartender says, "Hi, Mitt!")
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To: ops33

Might as well, I probably plagerized it from somewhere, myself :>)


41 posted on 02/17/2012 4:26:03 PM PST by irishtenor (Everything in moderation, however, too much whiskey is just enough... Mark Twain)
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper

“that fruitloop Minneapolis Chief of Police whose name stated with a “B” - Bourza?”

Close.

Tony Bouza.

From NYC.


42 posted on 02/17/2012 6:40:39 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR: Now, More Than Ever.)
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