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Putting Women on the Front Lines
CDT ^ | Feb 18, 2012 | Joshua E. Keating

Posted on 02/18/2012 7:20:22 AM PST by BarnacleCenturion

The Pentagon made big news last week when it announced it was opening up more combat positions to women in the U.S. military. These 14,000 positions include tank mechanics and front line intelligence officers. However, about one-fifth of active-duty military positions, including the infantry, combat tank units and special operations commando units, will remain off-limits.

...

Last week’s rule change in the United States was largely a reflection of the fact that women are, to a large extent, already participating in combat. Despite the restrictions in place, 144 American women have been killed and 865 wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001, according to the Defense Department.

The number of countries that have opened front line combat positions is also larger than you might think (or than media reports sometimes suggest). A 2010 survey by the British Ministry of Defense listed Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Israel, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Romania and Sweden as countries that allow women in “close combat roles,” defined as “engaging an enemy on the ground with individual or crew served weapons, while being exposed to hostile fire and to a high probability of direct physical contact with the hostile forces personnel.” Australia joined that list in September 2011 when it opened its front-line units — including one of the largest contingents in Afghanistan — to women.

A handful of other countries could probably also be added. South Korea has begun opening up more front line positions to women, including in artillery and armored divisions. Women have fought in Eritrea’s military since its war of independence from Ethiopia in 1991 — at one point they made up 30 percent of the country’s combat forces — and are required, along with men, to serve a year and a half of military service. Women have flown combat missions as fighter pilots for Britain, Pakistan, Serbia, South Africa, the United States and others.

In Israel, which is well known as one of the few countries where women are drafted, the policy is evolving. Santorum cited Israel as a country that doesn’t allow women on the front lines because of the psychological effect it has on men. But in fact, the Israeli military does allow women in the vast majority of combat positions.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bho44; bhodod; militarywomen; womenincombat
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1 posted on 02/18/2012 7:20:26 AM PST by BarnacleCenturion
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To: BarnacleCenturion

I understand that Russia, which also once had women on the front lines, has also rescinded that policy. We should learn from other nations’ experience.


2 posted on 02/18/2012 7:25:30 AM PST by jmcenanly (Things will be better in 2013)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Making another pot of coffee.


3 posted on 02/18/2012 7:26:30 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Hmm, wonder how long it’ll take for them to cry “Sexual harrasment” when they’re expected to do their new job?


4 posted on 02/18/2012 7:27:14 AM PST by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be purchased and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Nothing scarier than a woman with PMS holding a gun.
Like in this you tube video...” I don’t trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn’t die!”
http://youtu.be/8m9uEN9Xlwc


5 posted on 02/18/2012 7:28:35 AM PST by baddog 219
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Where are the “front lines” these days?

Booker! Get me my aerial photographs!


6 posted on 02/18/2012 7:32:57 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
But in fact, the Israeli military does allow women in the vast majority of combat positions.

Israel at its inception had women in combat positions. But when they realized that the men tended to "look out for" the women, they decided it wasn't a good idea, so they stopped it. Israeli women currently serve in combat positions because of a high court decision -- whatever you call the Israeli Supreme Court, not a decision of the military, the government or the people.

7 posted on 02/18/2012 7:33:53 AM PST by maryz
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To: BarnacleCenturion
Put the women in their own Amazon brigades. If you mix them with men, the men will complain that they are weighted down. The women will complain about sexism. If the Amazon brigades beat the enemy on the battlefield, the enemy home front will be demoralized and quit. If the Amazon brigade fails, oh well.
8 posted on 02/18/2012 7:39:53 AM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The meek shall not inherit the Earth)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
Put the women in their own Amazon brigades. If you mix them with men, the men will complain that they are weighted down. The women will complain about sexism. If the Amazon brigades beat the enemy on the battlefield, the enemy home front will be demoralized and quit. If the Amazon brigade fails, oh well.
9 posted on 02/18/2012 7:39:54 AM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The meek shall not inherit the Earth)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Not against women in the military at all in fact I proudly serve with some awesome ones. Seem unnecessary to allow this as our tool of a president wants to cut 78,000 active duty position just for starters in the next 3 years.


10 posted on 02/18/2012 7:40:16 AM PST by Newbomb Turk (Hey Newbomb, Where's your brothers El Camino ?)
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To: jmcenanly
"I understand that Russia, which also once had women on the front lines, has also rescinded that policy."

Hmm, I don't think so. I was just reading this article...

Moscow, 22 June 2005 (RFE/RL) -- Kseniya Agarkova is not just a pretty Russian brunette. She can shoot rifles, assemble machine guns in a flash, and floor the fiercest attackers. Lieutenant Agarkova was also crowned Miss Russian Army 2005 yesterday in Moscow, outmatching 18 other long-legged beauties serving in Russia’s armed forces. “Beauties in Shoulder-Straps” is the second beauty pageant staged by the Russian Army as an attempt to boost its waning prestige and encourage young men and women to join its ranks.

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1059432.html

11 posted on 02/18/2012 7:42:52 AM PST by BarnacleCenturion
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Putting women in combat units is an incredibly dumb idea. While some women have done fine in recent days under fire, the whole question isn’t whether you can train some women to fight, it’s whether a combat unit benefits in proficiency by mixing women with the young men. The internal personal dynamics completely change and no amount of training, threats, or blandishments change hormones.

The whole purpose of combat units is killing people, period. Ignore the war movies, the comic books, the “analysts” who think warfare has changed. It hasn’t - if anything it’s more brutal than ever. We either maximize the efficiency of our combat units or we start learning to enjoy occupation.

That goes double for incorporating gays into the units. We are not a social experimentation venue, we are supposedly the lifeline for our independence and freedom.


12 posted on 02/18/2012 7:44:25 AM PST by Chainmail
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To: Chainmail
Ignore the war movies, the comic books, the “analysts” who think warfare has changed. It hasn’t - if anything it’s more brutal than ever.

This simply isn't true.

13 posted on 02/18/2012 7:50:37 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: Chainmail

Well said!


14 posted on 02/18/2012 7:52:06 AM PST by BwanaNdege (Man has often lost his way, but modern man has lost his address - Gilbert K. Chesterton)
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To: maryz
Israel at its inception had women in combat positions.

"Dr. Ruth" Westheimer always comes to mind immediately.

15 posted on 02/18/2012 7:53:53 AM PST by BerryDingle (I know how to deal with communists, I still wear their scars on my back from Hollywood-Ronald Reagan)
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To: Chainmail

Dunno, I’d rather have a woman as a buddy than a homosexual oogling the Bacha Bazi boyus on Friday night.


16 posted on 02/18/2012 7:56:20 AM PST by Karliner ( Jeremiah 29:11, Romans 8:28, Romans 8:38"...this is the end of the beginning."WC)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Put two women in front of each combat-ready troop. They can act like boron in a fission reactor. Moderators such as boron slow down and absorb high energy neutrons.


17 posted on 02/18/2012 8:02:30 AM PST by MIchaelTArchangel (Romney ruined Massachusetts. Now he wants to ruin the nation.)
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To: maryz

Actually, I recently read, to research for another such discussion on this forum, that Israeli feminist lawmakers are responsible for adding verbiage to a law that states that all opportunities in the IDF are equally open to both men and women. There is even a coed unit that is stationed in their southern desert of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal_Battalion

However, the IDF is taking heat for dragging their feet on further deploying more women as combat grunts. Your larger point that this is being forced on the IDF is spot on. The original coed nature of Israeli fighting forces in 1948 grew out of a far left egalitarian ideal that there is no difference bewteen the sexes. That spirit lives on, at least until the sh*t really hits the fan.


18 posted on 02/18/2012 8:04:57 AM PST by SoCal Pubbie
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To: BarnacleCenturion
The economy stagnant, taxes rising, cost of living spiking, massive corruption - yeah this is what I care about: WOMEN IN COMBAT

No wonder liberals treat us like we're stupid - we're pretty easy to manipulate.

I'd be laughing and smiling if I was a lib too. :)
19 posted on 02/18/2012 8:06:48 AM PST by Tzimisce (Never forget that the American Revolution began when the British tried to disarm the colonists.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

The only combat those chicky poos are going to see is fighting off rival suitors on russianbrides.com.


20 posted on 02/18/2012 8:09:45 AM PST by SoCal Pubbie
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To: BarnacleCenturion

“Kseniya Agarkova is not just a pretty Russian brunette. She can shoot rifles, assemble machine guns in a flash, and floor the fiercest attackers.”

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t doubt she could get down ON the floor with men, but I don’t believe she could floor very many guys. It is that feminist, Hollywood BS that won’t last 10 seconds in hand-to-hand combat.


21 posted on 02/18/2012 8:10:26 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers
Hollywood BS that won’t last 10 seconds in hand-to-hand combat.

That's why they use guns.

22 posted on 02/18/2012 8:18:53 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
Bad Idea...
23 posted on 02/18/2012 8:20:04 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: SoCal Pubbie
The original coed nature of Israeli fighting forces in 1948 grew out of a far left egalitarian ideal that there is no difference bewteen the sexes.

That's certainly true -- but there may also have been an element of anyone big enough to carry a weapon, fights!

24 posted on 02/18/2012 8:21:22 AM PST by maryz
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To: jmcenanly

I’ve got some real concerns due to the recent deployment to Afghanistan of 6 female soldiers from our local National Guard unit.

I don’t have any issues with them being deployed to Afghanistan but I do have issues with the fact that they’re being pulled from behind desks at a transportation unit and will “accompany” combat troops on patrols to act as liaisons to Afghan women in remote villages.

When these troops go out on patrol, they may not intend to enter combat but combat often comes to them. Add in a half dozen women who write newsletters and file paperwork and you’re asking for trouble.

The local newspaper quoted one of them as looking forward to seeing the beauty of Afghanistan, helping the Afghan women, and writing about her experiences. This 20 year old women spoke like she was going on vacation.


25 posted on 02/18/2012 8:24:18 AM PST by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: ILS21R

“That’s why they use guns.”

Sorry, but you don’t understand the picture.

Sometimes, things go wrong. Sometimes you are outnumbered. And even using a gun isn’t easy when you’ve been carrying 100 lbs of gear for 16 hours.

Women make fine soldiers in peacetime, or when everything is going right. But when everything is going to crap, a 120 lb woman is NOT what you want at your side. In bed, maybe, but not at your side when you think dying is a very real possibility.


26 posted on 02/18/2012 8:26:14 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: cripplecreek
I don’t have any issues with them being deployed to Afghanistan but I do have issues with the fact that they’re being pulled from behind desks at a transportation unit and will “accompany” combat troops on patrols to act as liaisons to Afghan women in remote villages.

I agree with you there. That is wrong.

27 posted on 02/18/2012 8:28:24 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: ILS21R
Booker! Get me my aerial photographs!

They're in Clermont, sir! Thirty kilometers behind enemy lines!

28 posted on 02/18/2012 8:32:00 AM PST by 17th Miss Regt
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To: ILS21R

Well , that a fact. There are no front lines these days.

A woman could be sitting in a meeting in a secure area, and one of the Muslims we have taken in, trained and trusted could decide to kill everyone in the room.

And they don’t have to be in Iraq or Afghanistan, they could be in Ft. Worth.


29 posted on 02/18/2012 8:34:58 AM PST by Venturer
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To: Venturer
Well , that a fact. There are no front lines these days. A woman could be sitting in a meeting in a secure area, and one of the Muslims we have taken in, trained and trusted could decide to kill everyone in the room.

You win!

30 posted on 02/18/2012 8:37:26 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
However, about one-fifth of active-duty military positions, including the infantry, combat tank units and special operations commando units, will remain off-limits.

Aw c'mon! It can't be all that bad. After all, SF had Martha Raye, and the SEALs have Demi Moore.

/sarc

31 posted on 02/18/2012 8:38:10 AM PST by Sarajevo (Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental)
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To: 17th Miss Regt
They're in Clermont, sir! Thirty kilometers behind enemy lines!

lol

32 posted on 02/18/2012 8:39:46 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
I contend that we should draft the women who bitch the loudest about it, and put them right up there where they seem to want to be...no matter what age (look out Helen Thomas).

What you resist, persists, and sometimes in a shoving match you should just move aside and let your opponent(s) fall on their face.
33 posted on 02/18/2012 8:42:39 AM PST by FrankR (You are only enslaved to the extent of the entitlements you receive.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
Front line combat troops should consist ENTIRELY of women and Federally Protected Minority Groups until such time as their casualties equal those of white men in the Civil War ... on both sides.

Those left behind might be able to get a few weeks of some good training in the meantime.

34 posted on 02/18/2012 8:42:39 AM PST by Kenny Bunk ((So, you're telling me Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts can't figure out this eligibility stuff?))
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To: BarnacleCenturion

One of the reasons why we have 20 million illegal aliens and Cartel violence spilling over into the United States is because we allowed women into front line Border Patrol units. If you want to demoralize our troops and lose battles one of the best ways to do it is to put women in combat units.


35 posted on 02/18/2012 8:42:57 AM PST by Ajnin (Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnocet!)
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To: Mr Rogers
Sometimes, things go wrong. Sometimes you are outnumbered. And even using a gun isn’t easy when you’ve been carrying 100 lbs of gear for 16 hours.

Is that when you call in the A-10s? Look, I understand the point you're trying to make. But you don't understand modern warfare.

36 posted on 02/18/2012 8:44:23 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: FrankR

Women in combat might well be a violation of the Geneva Convention to which we remain signatories. They are just too damn mean!


37 posted on 02/18/2012 8:44:52 AM PST by Kenny Bunk ((So, you're telling me Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts can't figure out this eligibility stuff?))
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To: BarnacleCenturion

So a beauty contest is now considered the front line?


38 posted on 02/18/2012 8:47:23 AM PST by tjps
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To: ILS21R

Yeah - I don’t understand modern warfare. I only spent 25 years in the military, and deployed on the ground in Afghanistan in 2007.

My son just got back from Afghanistan in December.

But what do I know? Hint - a lot more than you do, apparently.


39 posted on 02/18/2012 8:51:24 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers
Sorry, but you don’t understand the picture.
Good response. I'm a 'Nam vet (artillery), and even with many months of training, it was nothing like actually being in combat.
More times than not, it was strength and stamina that saved the day ... things that women have less of, by nature. That's just the way it is.
That some want to put women into combat when you know it's to the enemy's advantage is insane.
40 posted on 02/18/2012 8:54:30 AM PST by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Mr Rogers
I only spent 25 years in the military, and deployed on the ground in Afghanistan in 2007.

25 years. Ever serve with any women?

41 posted on 02/18/2012 9:09:12 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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All contributions are for the
Current Quarter Expenses.


42 posted on 02/18/2012 9:09:12 AM PST by RedMDer (Forward With Confidence!)
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To: ILS21R; Mr Rogers
I understand modern warfare very well.....I have four back to back COMBAT deployments. Women have no, zero, zip, zilch, nada, nien, mu, nunca place in a combat unit. Unless it is a clerical or nursing (rear echelon) position.

And sometimes, you can't just call in A-10s and Specter C130 gunships and scream "Broken Arrow" into the radio and everything goes awesome just like on tee-vee. Things often go south of bad.

God made men one way, and women a different way....and women are the "weaker vessel."

I know what it is like to hold the hand of one of my Marines as his life slowly bleeds out of him while the doc frantically searches for the entry wound. I couldn't imagine what that would be like if that Marine would have been a woman.

I know what it is like to go Winchester, surrounded 360 degrees by the enemy, cutoff, pinned down, and next to nill chance of re-supply anytime soon.....danger-close artillery is the only thing keeping us alive. I thank God, we didn't have women with us if not just for their sake, but ours.

I know what it was like when we learned Jessica Lynch had been taken POW and that emotions were higher b/c she was a woman. Losing a brother in arms is hard enough....men are supposed to be protectors of women; even seeing pictures of fallen women I don't know in the Military Times articles is difficult.

I also know that the women are still not held to the same fitness standards as men, which also makes it easier for women to get promoted (they do less, or do it slower for a higher score).....meaning men often have more experience before attaining the same rank.

Further, there's no place for open homsexuals, or any other leftist social engineering degradation of the military.

I think that sums up modern warfare pretty well.

43 posted on 02/18/2012 9:11:58 AM PST by Repeat Offender (While the wicked stand confounded, call me with Thy Saints surrounded)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Great propaganda, isn’t it?


44 posted on 02/18/2012 9:12:42 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: ILS21R

“25 years. Ever serve with any women?”

In ground combat roles? No. Flying? Two...one was a good pilot, the other was not. Doing paperwork? Many, and they were every bit the equal of men in those roles.


45 posted on 02/18/2012 9:18:03 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Repeat Offender

Excellent post!


46 posted on 02/18/2012 9:18:45 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: jmcenanly
I understand that Russia, which also once had women on the front lines, has also rescinded that policy

Yes, well, when enemy armies have conquered 1/3 of our territory, killed 20 millions of our people, and are machine-gunning children and women into death pits every day, we can consider putting women into combat, as Russia did.

47 posted on 02/18/2012 9:20:42 AM PST by Jim Noble ("The Germans: At your feet, or at your throat" - Winston Churchill)
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To: ILS21R

many nations over the centuries have tried this and it NEVER worked—What makes us think that in the USA it will? What makes our women any better than the women of other lands? No this is just PC politics. Its because we Just fight weak nations in the 3rd world (of late) and in a real war things for women in the front lines would not be so good. What would have happened if there were women at D-Day? or at The Bulge? What would the SS have done with woman POWs? I guess we will just have to learn this lesson the hard way.


48 posted on 02/18/2012 9:22:52 AM PST by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: ILS21R
"This simply isn't true"Really.

And your basis for this comment is what?

I would bet you've never visited the wounded at Bethesda or Walter Reed.

49 posted on 02/18/2012 9:27:01 AM PST by Chainmail
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To: Mr Rogers; Travis McGee
Hear Hear...welcome to the MTV generation of brainwashed logic and no sense of human history

or the steady dribble of nonsense that flies in the face of reality meant to make folks feel better

the cult of sameness

I mean men and and women are so alike and women so equal in war...i mean why not...i’ve seen the movies, played the video games, heard my pacifist women's studies professor tell me, seen the TV commercials, watched my dad run around by my alpha mom with 10 post grad degrees...so it must be true

in fact it's worse...women are actually more capable of war...I mean really...they can multi task you know...fire multiple weapons systems, plan the advance and tend to the wounded at the same time they do their nails

and on stamina and nerve...I mean come on...women are not more hysterical or nervous than men...hell...they are steelier...they will never collapse in a sobbing heap while under steady fire...forget the Israeli experience...what do they know?

let's face it...the only reason that since Hominids first warred back at the dawn of human history that women have almost never been utilized in fighting bands or units and so forth is that men oppressed them from their natural state as superior warring parties...it's all 100,000 years of lies

oppression to keep women who are superior than men by nature from killing more people than men can

I mean don't you get it...it's all been a scam and now these brave pathfinder women and their little boys and girls on Free Republic and in American culture have discovered the truth...if we had used women in WWII instead of mostly white men...we could have won in half the time while the men were home making boats and planes and tending to babies...where they belong

how on earth could so many folks have been so wrong for so many 1000s of years...the effort involved in the ruse to defy women their natural superior role in war is beyond a magnitude we can understand

I don't know about you but the more women and queers fighting our wars for us the safer I feel

so get with it..you hear

50 posted on 02/18/2012 9:31:40 AM PST by wardaddy (I am a social conservative. My political party left me(again). They can go to hell in a bucket.)
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