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What Kids Now Learn in College (Save your money. Here’s a list of the lessons they'll be taught)
National Review ^ | 02/29/2012 | Dennis Prager

Posted on 02/29/2012 5:59:23 AM PST by SeekAndFind

As high school seniors throughout America will be receiving acceptance letters to colleges within the next month, it would be nice for parents to meditate on what they are getting for the $20–$50,000 they will pay each year.

The United States is no better than any other country, and in many areas worse than many. On the world stage, America is an imperialist country, and domestically it mistreats its minorities and neglects its poor, while discriminating against non-whites.

There is no better and no worse in literature and the arts. The reason universities in the past taught Shakespeare, Michelangelo, and Bach rather than, let us say, Guatemalan poets, Sri Lankan musicians, and Native American storytellers was “Eurocentrism.”

God is at best a non-issue, and at worst, a foolish and dangerous belief.

Christianity is largely a history of inquisitions, crusades, oppression, and anti-intellectualism. Islam, on the other hand, is “a religion of peace.” Therefore, criticism of Christianity is enlightened, while criticism of Islam is Islamophobia.

Israel is a racist state, morally no different from apartheid South Africa.

Big government is the only humane way to govern a country.

The South votes Republican because it is still racist and the Republican party caters to racists.

Mothers and fathers are interchangeable. Claims that married mothers and fathers are the parental ideal and bring unique things to a child are heterosexist and homophobic.

Whites can be racist; non-whites cannot be (because whites have power and the powerless cannot be racist).

The great world and societal battles are not between good and evil, but between rich and poor and the powerful and the powerless.

Patriotism is usually a euphemism for chauvinism.

War is ignoble. Pacifism is noble.

Human beings are animals. They differ from “other animals” primarily in having better brains.

We live in a patriarchal society, which is injurious to women.

Women are victims of men.

Blacks are victims of whites.

Latinos are victims of Anglos.

Muslims are victims of non-Muslims

Gays are victims of straights.

Big corporations are bad. Big unions are good.

There is no objective meaning to a text. Every text only means what the reader perceives it to mean.

The American Founders were sexist, racist slaveholders whose primary concern was preserving their wealthy status.

The Constitution says what progressives think it should say.

The American dropping of the atom bomb on Hiroshima was an act of racism and a war crime.

The wealthy have stacked the capitalist system to maintain their power and economic benefits.

The wealthy Western nations became wealthy by exploiting Third World nations through colonialism and imperialism.

Defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman is as immoral as defining marriage as the union of a white and a white.

Some conclusions:

If this list is accurate — and that may be confirmed by visiting a college bookstore and seeing what books are assigned by any given instructor — most American parents and/or their child are going into debt in order to support an institution that for four years, during the most impressionable years of a person’s life, instills values that are the opposite of those of their parents.

And that is intentional.

As Woodrow Wilson, progressive president of Princeton University before becoming president of the United States, said in a speech in 1914, “I have often said that the use of a university is to make young gentlemen as unlike their fathers as possible.”

In 1996, in his commencement address to the graduating seniors of Dartmouth College, the then president of the college, James O. Freedman, cited the Wilson quote favorably. And in 2002, in another commencement address, Freedman said that “the purpose of a college education is to question your father’s values.”

For Wilson, Freedman, and countless other university presidents, the purpose of a college education is to question (actually, reject) one’s father’s values, not to seek truth. Fathers represented traditional American values. The university is there to undermine them.

Still want to get into years of debt?

— Dennis Prager is a nationally syndicated radio talk-show host and columnist


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: college; education
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 02/29/2012 5:59:38 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

If you tell the truth about these things you must be destroyed by the moderate Mitt-ercups.


2 posted on 02/29/2012 6:09:38 AM PST by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: SeekAndFind
Still want to get into years of debt?

Well, that college "education" is the only avenue for the Womyn's/Queer/Racism Studies professor-to-be. Who else can ensure a future supply of pedagogues in these vital disciplines?

3 posted on 02/29/2012 6:16:14 AM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
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To: SeekAndFind
I would like to see several 'mandates' of the university challenged - legally. For example, I'm an electrical engineer; in order to get the same degree today; I'm "extorted" to take classes for multiple semesters in Foreign Language, Humanities and Social Sciences (where this libtard sort of crap it taught).

If I want my degree, in order to pursue this career choice - I am forced (extortion) to take, and pass these classes. I fail to see how any of these classes contribute to my ability to design, built, test or manufacture electronic circuits or enable me to design software to run on the hardware I have built.

What they do accomplish, is to funnel a substantial amount of my hard earned dollars into a course of study that could not possibly begin to support itself, based upon it's own merits.

4 posted on 02/29/2012 6:17:41 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: Hodar
I'm "extorted" to take classes for multiple semesters in Foreign Language, Humanities and Social Sciences (where this libtard sort of crap it taught).

Most of these classes are easy 'A''s. Nothing has changed since I got my EE degree years(many) ago.

5 posted on 02/29/2012 6:24:15 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Not all colleges. I have a son at Colorado Christian University. Unabashedly Christian and home of the Western Conservative Union. Speakers in the past year have included Sarah Palin and Josh McDowell. A wonderful institution if any of you have children approaching college age. Oh, and excellent academics as well.


6 posted on 02/29/2012 6:24:31 AM PST by Mom MD (The country needs Obamacare like Nancy Pelosi needs a Halloween mask)
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To: Hodar

Michael Medved had a very interesting guest on his show who wanted to do away with our current system of education and diplomas, and go to a centrally run set of qualifications tests.

If you want to become an Electrical Engineer you would go and take the test. If you passed you would be deemed qualified and given credentials. Whether you learned the material at Harvard, Slippery Rock, Community College, from books or the internet or wherever would be irrelevant. All that is necessary is that you demonstrate mastery of it.

Of course the blood of everyone in academia starts to run cold upon hearing talk like this.


7 posted on 02/29/2012 6:26:24 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: SeekAndFind

The only reason I am annoyed at Dennis about this topic is because he, himself, is a college graduate. The reality of today’s world is that because high schools no longer do their job, employers won’t even hire you unless you have a college degree; and even then, the college graduates can still not spell or write coherently.

I think the key is to get your kid into a college like Grove City, Hillsdale or one of the many good Christian colleges and to monitor what your kid is taking. If YOU are paying for it, you have the right to know what you are paying for. Any kid who gives his parent a hard time can start paying his own way.

The other alternative is to wait to go to college until you are no longer so easily brainwashed. I started college young, but I have a very strong will so I wasn’t convinced of the garbage. I didn’t finish until I was an adult and by then I was safe.


8 posted on 02/29/2012 6:26:38 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: Buckeye McFrog

I think it’s more like this over in the UK and Europe.


9 posted on 02/29/2012 6:27:32 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: SeekAndFind

About half of the US-based technical workers in our work group, did not even attend a four-year university.

They attended technical schools.

No leftwing brainwashing at all.


10 posted on 02/29/2012 6:30:15 AM PST by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: Hodar

I have a different view. While I am against the Leftist/Progressive/Socialist brainwashing that occurs in universities today, I don’t consider a person to have a university education if they only take the courses needed to become an engineer, nurse, architect, accountant, or __________, etc.

The whole point of obtaining a university degree is to expose oneself to literature, history, and the arts. It is what makes a person well rounded. I have met many a business major who was so pathetically ignorant of just basics like Aesop or Plato.

As for myself, I am glad that I was exposed to art and literature that I would not have chosen on my own.


11 posted on 02/29/2012 6:32:48 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: SeekAndFind

Prager explains perfectly what Santorum was trying to say, and what Obama tries to hide.

There is no other reason Obama wants everyone to go to college. It does not prepare for most jobs.


12 posted on 02/29/2012 6:33:32 AM PST by Yaelle (Rick Santorum for People's Representative)
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To: Paved Paradise

RE: I think the key is to get your kid into a college like Grove City, Hillsdale or one of the many good Christian colleges and to monitor what your kid is taking.

________________________________

NOTE TO CONSERVATIVE PARENTS OUT THERE WHOSE KIDS ARE OF COLLEGE AGE...

I just read one of the reviews for Grove City College, and I can tell you, I have been to their campus and spoken to their professors. This college is TOP NOTCHED and VALUE FOR MONEY.

And note to who don’t want their kids to pay too much in tuition and end up unemployed....

Their TUITION PLUS BOARD AND LODGING Is just a little over $20,000 a year. And last year, in a very bad economy -— 95% of their college graduates found jobs within 3 to 4 months of graduation.

SEE A REVIEW HERE ( which I heartily agree with ):

http://www.epinions.com/review/educ-Colleges_and_Universities-All-Grove_City_College/content_418083278468?sb=1


Pros:Great Academics in a Safe, Moral, Friendly Environment.
Cons:Bucolic Surroundings and not much racial diversity.
The Bottom Line: A great fit for the intelligent Christian who is serious with his faith and wants to attend what is arguably the best Christian Liberal Arts College in the country.

I did not enter college early because of an accident I encountered that effectively lost me two years. However, I worked hard in high school and obtain a very high GPA and good SAT and ACT scores. Hence, I was close to 20 when I graduated from High School.

When I was looking for a college to enroll, me and my family, together with friends at our church wrote down several criteria for what we believe to be, our vision of the ideal college.

A college that......... (not necessarily in this order)

1) Has extremely high academic levels. Not in the PR that all colleges seem to put out in their brochures, but as measured by
a) Student body that is highly selective
b) Faculty that is distinguished, challenging, committed, and TEACHING
c) A grading system that does not reflect grade inflation
d) Respect given by employers of serious note.
e) Quality of visiting lecturers

2) Commitment to a pro-evangelical, pro-Christian, pro-western civilization, pro-free enterprise, worldview where a serious major could study free of the straight-jacket of Darwinian and relativistic ideology (A number of allegedly evangelical colleges fell off the list at this point).

We wanted to see this demonstrated IN DEED as well as PR. We wanted a school that, while pro-evangelical, would also have a broader student body - including conservative Catholics and Protestant “Mainliners”

3) Financial integrity, as measured by........
a) Equity in dealing with tuition charges by avoiding ‘cross subsidies’. We preferred not to patronize a college, if we could help it, that charges some people more in order to charge others less - especially when distributing financial aid (read discounts as in car dealers) according gov’t guidelines (Federal Fin. Aid Forms).

b) Avoiding compromise of the college’s mission and management through entanglements in Federal Regulation. due to accepting taxpayer’s involuntary support

c) Making sure that students come, stay, and leave with a purpose, proactively monitored by a REAL career and guidance office

Our ‘short list’ included 7 or 8 schools. It included among others — Wheaton College, Biola University, Pepperdine University, Baylor University and believe it or not, even Notre Dame.

We found all of these schools to be very good but set our eyes on Grove City College.

GROVE CITY’s tuition plus board and lodging for a year is just $17,500 ( not a typo ). Plus — IN ORDER TO BE INDEPENDENT FROM GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE AND ALL ITS STUPID REGULATIONS, IT *REFUSES* ALL FEDERAL AID. Hence, students who enroll should not be getting FAFSA AID from Washington DC. I admire this self-sufficiency.

The school is not far from Pittsburgh, PA ( about an hour drive ) and the town (Grove City ) is small ( population -— 8,000 ).

We went to their orientation and came away very impressed. The campus is 150 acres with a mix of Gothic ( think Harry Potter ) and modern architecture ( the school is 150 years old ). We were greeted at the auditorium by their jazz orchestra. The president of the school spoke and explained the VALUES of the school and we went on a tour that lasted 3 hours.

That was in 2003. I am now a college graduate working as a Project Manager for a huge energy company. Let me tell you what I discovered about this school :

1) A freshman class with a class SAT average of 1310 (without dropping out anyone as the Ivy’s do), where one of every six freshman was first or second in their high school class.

2) A faculty that teaches and advises in person ( over 90% have Ph.D’s ).

3) A rigorous academic curriculum that can humble the best of the best.

4) A graduating senior class of my batch that had earned enough respect from outsiders to receive more contract job offers from the Top 5 accounting firms, proportionately, than any undergraduate school in the country. I heard that 2007’s job fair had 200 companies visiting their campus.

5) Visiting lecturers that include the likes of.... Philip Johnson, Michael Medved, Armstrong, Williams Peter Marshall Michael Horowitz, Ed Meese, Gary Bauer, Michael Reagan, Thomas Sowell, Ric Santorum, Tom Ridge and Bill Frist.

6) Mandatory core courses that highlight the great ideas of the West and knowledge of the Bible ( no fluff courses like Gay and Lesbian Studies ).

7) A comprehensive fee of under $12 K, with the school making very clear that NO family was being charged to subsidize another family. Built into this price is a new HP notebook computer with a color printer that the student keeps at graduation.

8) Refusal to take federal ‘aid’, allowing the college to teach and manage itself without the compromises that come with accepting the forced ‘contributions’ of others. Thus, the school practices what it teaches in the Economics and Business Departments.

9) A Career and counseling office that models it program on Larry Burkett’s ‘Career Pathways’ seminar. The school considers it a failure to have a student go through 4 years of college work without having a clear, and reasonable, idea of what to do with his or her degree after graduation.

Students are pushed to make a firm career choice by late sophomore or early junior year, with a well planned job search ready, going into the senior year. Most college ‘career’ offices at evangelical schools are a very bad joke - not at GCC.

10) Senior students whose knowledge of Civics and America’s Founding principles outclash most Ivy League Schools.

11) Separate Men and Women Dorms ( Intervisitation allowed with strict curfew ).

12) Over 50 degrees to choose from ( their pre-med and pre-law students have close to 100% aceptance rate to med and law school ).

This school may not be for everyone, but for the top level student interested in a truly high quality, low cost education in a friendly, safe environment, it’s tough to beat.

In short, attending Grove City College was one of the best decisions I made.


13 posted on 02/29/2012 6:36:47 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: Hodar

I got my EE degree 25 years ago, and there were liberal art requirements. I consider most of them to have been real positive experiences. I found that I really like poetry. Intro to Drama was great date material - discount tickets to plays and other theater events. Philosophy offered a few gut courses - Philosophy of Logic and Symbolic Logic, but I had a weakness for brainiac girls. The only real throw away course was Human Sexuality, but the teacher was hot. Man she really made an impression in a tight sweater on a cool Fall day.

Hey, wait a minute, I think I’m sensing a theme here. Liberal Arts courses have a way of rounding out an engineer’s education.


14 posted on 02/29/2012 6:37:43 AM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Yaelle

I don’t usually use the term “brilliant” to describe TV personalities but Mike Rowe nails it again and again and again.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2650612/posts


15 posted on 02/29/2012 6:38:47 AM PST by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
If you want to become an Electrical Engineer you would go and take the test. If you passed you would be deemed qualified and given credentials. Whether you learned the material at Harvard, Slippery Rock, Community College, from books or the internet or wherever would be irrelevant. All that is necessary is that you demonstrate mastery of it.

An excellent idea. It has also been suggested that students be taught by people who have retired from certain professions...let engineering students be taught by retired engineers, and so forth...

16 posted on 02/29/2012 6:39:11 AM PST by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: SeekAndFind
For Wilson, Freedman, and countless other university presidents, the purpose of a college education is to question (actually, reject) one’s father’s values, not to seek truth. Fathers represented traditional American values. The university is there to undermine them.

I don't believe a lot of parents understand this...

17 posted on 02/29/2012 6:41:57 AM PST by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: Jack of all Trades

-——Liberal Arts courses have a way of rounding out an engineer’s education.-——

I went to engineering school at about the same time, and held liberal arts in low regard. Considering how it was taught, it was a valid judgement.

But try real philosophy, like Aristotle and Aquinas. It’s left untried because, like EE, it’s hard. The subject matter is far more important, though, and the benefits are much greater.


18 posted on 02/29/2012 6:48:59 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Buckeye McFrog

Engineering already has a system of tests like this - the PE exams. Tho, WRT your example, EE graduates probably take the PE exams at a lower rate than all other engineering disciplines because the computer/electronics parts of the field aren’t addressed on the PE exams. We really need to change and update the PE exams to address the huge areas of the EE field that aren’t simply about power generation and transmission.

The state bar exams don’t care where you went to school - they shouldn’t even require that you did go to law school, but they do require that now.


19 posted on 02/29/2012 6:52:03 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Hodar; All

the debat you mention regarding worthless classes to a particular degree has been going on for decades. College WAS to make an individual a well rounded renessance man. Now it is a mere meal ticket.

There are two things which would restore balance to the cost of higher education.

1. Reinstate dischargability of student loans in bankruptcy.

2. Have a means test for universities themselves.

so.

1. Dischargable in Bankruptcy of Student Loans: The non-dischagability of student loans has created hyper inflation in cost of higher education and an explosion of junk studies and departments.
This means universitities can sucker minds full of mush that a “women’s studies” degree has some sort of intrinsic or ecconomic value when it in fact is a worthless waste of time.
there is no reason to reason for universities to be able to say a ussr Lada is the same as a Lincoln Town car. Universities SHOULD PAY for wasting the years of students.

2. Means Test Universities: Many of the effete elite schools are so well endowed with money that they CAN never charge for tuition again and STILL make money. If a school has that much money then there is no need for Univiersity Wealfare. Professor Wackadoo’s study in harmonizing ant pharts as a parth to world peas (sic) can be funded by the edowment and not Mr. and Mrs. America’s tuition dollars.
(i would say the US universities need an enema, but Professor Wackadoo’s significant other Professor Whatacrock is doing a study on that already using a taxpayer grant endorsed by warrent buffet and signed off by obama.)

FOOTNOTE ONE: Obama is defined as executive inconpetence due to a refusal to see reality and a total lack of real world experice.


20 posted on 02/29/2012 6:54:22 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

I held liberal arts in low regard when going for my engineering degree as well.

Subsequent events have proven us both entirely correct.

I agree that REAL philosophy and logic would be difficult courses. But they’re so rare now that it is a completely irrelevant point to the larger truth that liberal arts schools are intellectual swamps, filled with muck and frothy, flammable gas emissions.


21 posted on 02/29/2012 6:55:40 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Hodar; All
the debate you mention regarding worthless classes to a particular degree has been going on for decades. College WAS to make an individual a well rounded Renaissance man. Now it is a mere meal ticket.

There are two things which would restore balance to the cost of higher education.

1. Reinstate dischargability of student loans in bankruptcy.

2. Have a means test for universities themselves.

so.

1. Dischargable in Bankruptcy of Student Loans: The non-dischagability of student loans has created hyper inflation in cost of higher education and an explosion of junk studies and departments.
This means universitities can sucker minds full of mush that a “women's studies” degree has some sort of intrinsic or economic value when it in fact is a worthless waste of time.
there is no reason to reason for universities to be able to say a ussr Lada is the same as a Lincoln Town car. Universities SHOULD PAY for wasting the years of students.

2. Means Test Universities: Many of the effete elite schools are so well endowed with money that they CAN never charge for tuition again and STILL make money. If a school has that much money then there is no need for Univiersity Wealfare. Professor Wackadoo’s study in harmonizing ant pharts as a path to world peas (sic) can be funded by the endowment and not Mr. and Mrs. America's tuition dollars.
(i would say the US universities need an enema, but Professor Wackadoo’s significant other Professor Whatacrock is doing a study on that already using a taxpayer grant endorsed by warrent buffet and signed off by obama.)

FOOTNOTE ONE: Obama is defined as executive incompetence due to a refusal to see reality and a total lack of real world experience.

22 posted on 02/29/2012 6:57:45 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
If you want to become an Electrical Engineer you would go and take the test. If you passed you would be deemed qualified and given credentials. Whether you learned the material at Harvard, Slippery Rock, Community College, from books or the internet or wherever would be irrelevant. All that is necessary is that you demonstrate mastery of it.

In the university, you have senior professors conduct lectures to a hundred or more students, with whom they have little or no individual contact. It is but a short step to instead use video lectures by the top experts in the US, supplemented by an FR-style online discussion on the points raised in the lecture.

The real existential threat to worthless academia would be repeal of the EEOC laws. It used to be that companies could hire smart people right out of high school, who would work, be trained on the job, and supplement their training by taking classes on evenings, weekends, or take correspondence courses. The demand for a college degree was just a response the "equal opportunity" laws declaring it illegal to have companies use hiring tests to try to ensure they were hiring somebody with an adequate ability to read, write, and do math.

23 posted on 02/29/2012 6:58:10 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: who knows what evil?

Ch Eng UF ‘67 taught me the theory and problem solving skills. A one week crash course by my employer taught me important stuff like how to install and repair a pump, instrumentation and extruder design.

Humanities courses were diversion from the hard courses. In civics classes, I was usually the lone voice defending America, even then. Luckily the prof was one who welcomed exchange of ideas. I suceeded mostly because I had world experiences gained in the Marines.


24 posted on 02/29/2012 6:58:34 AM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: NVDave

I was suprised to find out that an “education” degree is considered the same as a “general studies” degree.

There should be no guaranteed government money for junk degrees.

The system is easy to game. Just stay on the university reservation earning degree after degree and the loans will never need to be repaid.


25 posted on 02/29/2012 7:02:33 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: SeekAndFind

In a real sense, what you pay the big bucks for at some colleges is the connections you make, rather than the education itself.

One can learn electrical engineering or English literature quite well at our local community college and/or state college, but if you go to Stanford for the exact same material, what you get for your money is the people you will meet. Same thing with why I would want to go to Harvard or Princeton- your roommates and friends are much more likely to include future senators, CEO’s and other folks who can benefit you. If you just want to design circuits or write books then it’s money wasted, in a lot of cases.


26 posted on 02/29/2012 7:02:45 AM PST by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, DEA and ATF.)
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To: Paved Paradise

“The whole point of obtaining a university degree is to expose oneself to literature, history, and the arts. It is what makes a person well rounded.”

I disagree. Why would studying Plato make me ‘well-rounded’, but working with horses not? If I went back to college full time now, in my 50s, I’d be expected to take a lot of courses in accepting gays, transvestites, and on why guns are evil and people are good. My 25 years in the military, living in various foreign countries, deployments to many more countries, combat time, etc - that would be irrelevant to being a ‘well-rounded’ person.

I read Plato when I was young. He was full of crap then, and I doubt he’s gotten any smarter in the last 30 years.

I own & have read hundreds of history books in my home. Do you think the University would care?

Art? Sorry, but I’ve toured Art Museums, and wish I had spent that time on horseback, or studying the ballistics of the 44 special vs the 45 acp.

Why does reading a play by an ancient Greek writer make one ‘well-rounded’, but getting a black belt doesn’t count? I’d bet many of the ancient Greeks would say the black belt is more valuable...


27 posted on 02/29/2012 7:08:17 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: NVDave

Actually, the liberal arts curriculum fell apart at about the same time that logic was dropped.

I would recommend that anyone considering a typical liberal arts program skip it, and replace it with a single book, Peter Kreeft’s Socrates Logic. It teaches how to reason well. The student can figure out the rest for himself.

http://www.amazon.com/Socratic-Logic-Questions-Aristotelian-Principles/product-reviews/1890318892/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

It is the only classical logic book in print. And at just $35, it’s far cheaper than the $10k cover charge at the bar called “college.”


28 posted on 02/29/2012 7:15:44 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Buckeye McFrog

I don’t think we are ever going to have a real alternative to a 4yr college degree. However I would like to see a tuition restructuring.

If you are going for an EE degree then courses that specifically apply to that degree would cost full tuition.

However, communist indoctrinated liberal arts courses not relevant to an EE degreee should cost one half or one third of tuition credit rates.

Hopefully this plan would bring down the salary of community-organizing professors to that of the Head Start nannies that they are.


29 posted on 02/29/2012 7:21:13 AM PST by A'elian' nation (Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred. Jacques Barzun)
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To: Yaelle

This has been going on for at least 60 years in steadily increasing anti-Capitalism and promoting Socialism/Communism.
Obama is our first Marxist....Woodrow Wilson was a Socialist yet this nation elected them.


30 posted on 02/29/2012 7:21:45 AM PST by yoe
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To: NVDave
“The state bar exams don’t care where you went to school - they shouldn’t even require that you did go to law school, but they do require that now.”

Doesn't Virginia still have a “law reader program” in which you can study law under the supervision of a licensed attorney and then sit for the bar exam?

31 posted on 02/29/2012 7:21:56 AM PST by riverdawg
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To: Yaelle

This has been going on for at least 60 years in steadily increasing anti-Capitalism and promoting Socialism/Communism.
Obama is our first Marxist....Woodrow Wilson was a Socialist yet this nation elected them.


32 posted on 02/29/2012 7:22:09 AM PST by yoe
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To: Mr Rogers

RE: I read Plato when I was young. He was full of crap then, and I doubt he’s gotten any smarter in the last 30 years.

_________________________________________________

Plato can’t change anything he taught, unless he can come back to life and observe how his ideas have been sort of implemented in the real world.

He’s the guy the Commies want to emulate. The one who envisions a Republic where children are taken from their parents and molded by the elite and enlightened teachers of the state.


33 posted on 02/29/2012 7:22:51 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: who knows what evil?
An excellent idea. It has also been suggested that students be taught by people who have retired from certain professions...let engineering students be taught by retired engineers, and so forth...

Good idea.

Three of my college professors were self-made millionaires who taught full schedules and received $1.00 as their salaries for each semester.

They taught Economics, Engineering(civil), and History.

34 posted on 02/29/2012 7:27:06 AM PST by N. Theknow (Kennedys=Can't drive, can't ski, can't fly, can't skipper a boat, but they know what's best for you.)
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To: Jack of all Trades

But, did your ‘love’ for poetry come from college; or would you have discovered this affinity all on your own. I think you are selling yourself short here.

Why is it an Engineer needs “Rounding Out”, and the only way humanly possible to acquire this is by taking Liberal Arts classes?

For example, by the same process - shouldn’t we demand that Art degrees take Calculus, Organic Chemistry and Relativistic Physics? I mean, you have to ‘round out’ them too, or do we only ‘round out’ the hard sciences? Are the Soft Sciences inherently superior to Hard Science students?

I submit that these classes are a collassal waste of time, energy and money. They could not support themselves, if not for the demand that everyone take those classes. While interesting - they have no role as being required.


35 posted on 02/29/2012 7:39:12 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: SeekAndFind

bump


36 posted on 02/29/2012 7:42:32 AM PST by gibsosa
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

bttt


37 posted on 02/29/2012 7:46:03 AM PST by Matchett-PI ("Without consequences, there's no virtue". ~ Rush Limbaugh 12:51 PM, Friday, 2/17/2012)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
-——Liberal Arts courses have a way of rounding out an engineer’s education.-——

BS. I want to buy a car; but I'm now forced to buy a Motorcycle, a Truck and get licensed to drive those; before you will allow me to have a car? No - this is called extortion. Mastering all modes of transportation may make me a better driver, but they are not required to drive a car - and that's all I want. Give me a car, and let me drive my car.

I want to be an engineer, taking 3 months of Intro to Ethics, History, Social Sciences and other crap will not make me any 'better' of a person than I am now. The books, papers and magazines I have read in the past 25 years, the experiencs I have had, travelling, raising kids and grandkids, and experiences gained from my career have impacted me. A forgotten class from 25 yrs ago did nothing but rob me, to enrich to some non-econimcally viable college department.

Now, if you want a Military Academy to turn out 'rounded' officers; fine. But this is a State College, seems highly arrogant to have anyone say "You can't be a well-rounded person unless you take this list of courses I have selected, from liberal, soft-sciences".

Want to cut the cost of college education? Easy, start cutting those fields of study that cannot support themselves in a capitalistic system. C'mon, demanding students pay 3 cr. hours x $150/cr hr plus $75 for a book on Music Appreciation? Really? Forcing them to sit in class for 3 hrs a week listening to music - exactly how will that help them get a job?

College exists to help educate and teach specialized skills to students, who wish to pursue a life-long career in a specialized field. Demanding they support non-viable courses is nothing less than extortion.

38 posted on 02/29/2012 7:53:08 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: Hodar
No, I don't think I would have appreciated poetry the same if I had not been required to analyze some pieces in detail.

Yes, I do think that a Bachelor's degree in anything should require some math and science. As to the specific I don't know. I think I was only required to take a selection of freshman level courses, and one or two sophomore level courses.

I still hold that a smattering of Liberal Arts courses is good for people in technical fields in that it broadens one's exposure and reinforces other avenues of creativity. Plus, there's chicks...

39 posted on 02/29/2012 8:02:31 AM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Jack of all Trades
Plus, there's chicks...

I'll concede that point. As a geek, aside from the dorm parties and bars; this was true.

But, the music I listen to, the plays I've attended, the symphonies I've paid to see - all these I did on my own .... voluntarily.

One way to trim excessive college expenses, is to remove those courses that do not contribute to the course of study. Forcing me to sit through 2 semesters of "Spanish", "German" or "French" will not help me as an engineer - probably because my industry workmates will likely speak English, Chinese, Japanese or Hindi. If we were to remove the non-contributing college courses; I submit that a 4 yr degree would become a 2.5-3 yr degree. That's a 25% cut in college courses, without affecting the educational skills of the graduates. Do you care if your engineering new-hire likes Poetry, Art, History, Womyn's Studies, Child Development, Theater or Music? No. You care that he can do what he was hired to do.

What we learn and take to heart, we do voluntarily. You cannot 'force' someone to be well-rounded; any more than I can 'force' you to be kind, passionate, and self-sacrificing. I can encourage these things, we can agree that they are good things; but these come from within. Forcing you to take these classes does little more than consume your time, rob your money and take away time and effort that could be better spent studying the discipline you wish to puruse as a career.

40 posted on 02/29/2012 8:12:41 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: Buckeye McFrog

Leftists would take over and dumb down the content of the professional qualification tests. Suddenly, white engineers would have to be self hating socialists in order to pass the tests.


41 posted on 02/29/2012 8:19:45 AM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: Hodar

-——Demanding they support non-viable courses is nothing less than extortion———

The root cause is third-party payment, I.e., taxpayer-funded loans.

The current higher ed system is bloated and antiquated. Much would pass away in a truly free market.


42 posted on 02/29/2012 8:19:53 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: SeekAndFind
Depending on your major or your area of concentration, your child may also learn how to work on a project team, because "that's how we all work in the business world, and we all have to learn how to collaborate to accomplish things!"

Then, on your project team, your child will inevitably learn that not everyone on a project team does their fair share (where have I heard that before?), but everyone's grade will be impacted if the project fails. The competent and caring students will generally step in and do the work because they're concerned about their grades and want to succeed (these students generally grow to be Republicans.

The lazy and incompetent students will make excuses about why they couldn't complete their part of the project. They will resent the fact the other members of their team had to step in, but they'll still expect a good grade because it wasn't their fault. (These students generally grow to be Democrats...or, they drop out of school and go defecate on police cars.)

43 posted on 02/29/2012 8:33:43 AM PST by Lou L (The Senate without a filibuster is just a 100-member version of the House.)
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To: SeekAndFind
For Wilson, Freedman, and countless other university presidents, the purpose of a college education is to question (actually, reject) ones father’s values. No fine line between education and brain washing,before a kid goes to college teach them not to take the bait.
44 posted on 02/29/2012 8:54:07 AM PST by Vaduz
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To: Mr Rogers

You are being silly. I went back to college and graduated last year, at age 53! There were no courses on accepting gays or the evil of guns. I will assume you are speaking with some measure of hyperbole.

The truth is that the secular and Lefty beliefs are permeating the humanities, so for instance when I took my course on Middle East History, I got a huge dose of the Palestinian view and how “evil” the Jews are. The books we had to read were ALL slanted towards the Palestinians and none showed the other side.

But that doesn’t mean it’s not good to know about Michaelangelo, DaVinci, or the whole movement that came about out of the “Salon” artists. Art can move people and uplift them, as can music and great works of literature. Riding a horse might be nice as well, but you are equating completely different pleasures or pursuits.

I love the outdoors, but I love going to museums. I love to travel and the fact that I know something of history (not just this country’s) and the arts and culture enriches my life.

I don’t know you, obviously, but I can’t imagine you would mesh well in a variety of circles. And the very fact that you can’t see a difference in having a Black Belt and understanding Sophocles (or even Shakespeare) is absurd.

I’ll just leave you with one thought. I am a reader. I happen to like William Styron, who wrote “Sophie’s Choice.” At some point in his life, Styron became terribly depressed and suicidal, but he was listening to a particularly beautiful piece of music one evening (and I don’t recall the composer). He made the decision that as long as that kind of beauty existed in the world, he would choose to live and so he got help. I hardly think that watching the Kentucky Derby (or even riding a horse), much less doing karate would have impacted him that way.


45 posted on 02/29/2012 9:17:27 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: SeekAndFind

I could not agree more. I learned about that college via a young lady who I now call a dear friend. She is a product of that school and there is not a finer person around.


46 posted on 02/29/2012 9:21:22 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: Lou L

LOL! Oh, Lou, you are so right. I went to college as a mature adult who had worked in the corporate world for 30 years. Had started and stopped college a couple of times but finally finished at age 53.

I HATED it when I had to work in groups. I have a strong work ethic, but found that I would be doing 75 percent or more of the work. Not to mention that I had to “babysit” the little brats and constantly email them to make sure they were doing THEIR part.

I had one kid - and she was actually a really good kid assigned a few tasks. I ended up doing something that was part of her job. When I brought it in, she said, “I thought I was supposed to do that,” and I told her I was sorry but because she hadn’t done it, I assumed she was NOT going to do it. I wasn’t going to wait for her to do it the last minute. She sheepishly admitted she was a terrible procrastinator.

And the quality...sheesh...I won’t even go there. I heard the following constantly: “Well, it’s good enough.” Umm, not it isn’t.


47 posted on 02/29/2012 9:25:39 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: Paved Paradise
"I love the outdoors, but I love going to museums. I love to travel and the fact that I know something of history (not just this country’s) and the arts and culture enriches my life.

I don’t know you, obviously, but I can’t imagine you would mesh well in a variety of circles. And the very fact that you can’t see a difference in having a Black Belt and understanding Sophocles (or even Shakespeare) is absurd."

Ummm...if you get thrilled by looking at 'art', have a nut. It does NOT make you a well-rounded person, any more than my knowledge of ballistics makes me a well-rounded person.

Between Sophocles & a horse, I'd choose a horse. A horse can teach you lessons applicable to raising kids or dealing with co-workers. Training a horse can teach a person more about leadership than reading books of psychology.

"At some point in his life, Styron became terribly depressed and suicidal, but he was listening to a particularly beautiful piece of music one evening (and I don’t recall the composer). He made the decision that as long as that kind of beauty existed in the world, he would choose to live and so he got help. I hardly think that watching the Kentucky Derby (or even riding a horse), much less doing karate would have impacted him that way."

My guess is that if Styron spent time riding horses or practicing the martial arts, he wouldn't have been as likely to turn suicidal to begin with. Doing either with a minimum of competence requires a combination of self-awareness AND an awareness and understanding of those around you. Music can uplift, but also depress. Music & books can allow a person to spiral down into a pit of self-centered pity.

Try that with a horse, or in karate, and the physical pain of getting tossed by the horse or kicked by your opponent will refocus your mind on those outside of you.

Also, regular physical exercise can do wonders for clearing the mind and reducing stress. As a group, I'd bet joggers are less suicidal than writers or philosophers...

Reading a story of a man who kills his Dad and marries his Mom doesn't do a whole lot for most people. Nor can I imagine anyone wanting to spend a few hours discussing it at a dinner table. OTOH, knowing that 1000 lbs of muscle will kick your butt tomorrow if you can't figure out how to get inside his mind CAN be a very serious topic of discussion.

I have no desire to 'mesh' with some weirdo freaks who want to spend the evening discussing men who marry their mothers. I also suspect I can 'mesh' with a wide variety of people in large part because I DO have interests like shooting, riding, or martial arts.

BTW - at 53, I am taking a college class. PreCalculus. Spent a few hours last night working on logarithmic equations. If one wants to go to college, I suggest classes where BS doesn't cut the mustard. And 35 years after my last math class, I say, "Thank goodness for graphing calculators!" I remember doing it in high school with slide rules...

General Patton - a vastly better rider than I will ever be:


48 posted on 02/29/2012 9:55:02 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers

You really like to assume. Have fun with your logarithms. I bet you could get a lot of people over for a party to talk about them or view some interesting ones.

As for the physical exercise, of course, that is very good. Not sure why you are so negative and down on art and music. Do you grasp the concept of well rounded? It means that you can converse intelligently on a wide variety of topics.

I’m starting to think maybe you fell off your horse one time too many (or took a few too many karate chops to the head). [kidding]

P.S. You’ll find that even math classes are not without their own claptrap. Have even had math professors get on their soapbox with a political rant.


49 posted on 02/29/2012 10:36:33 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: SeekAndFind

Jonah Goldberg, in Liberal Fascism, included a quote by Woodrow Wilson on education that he stated in address that he made as president of Princeton. Wilson said that their goal as educators was to make the students as least like their fathers as possible.


50 posted on 02/29/2012 10:47:04 AM PST by Eva
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