Skip to comments.Top USAF general explains EXACTLY how to kill an F-22
Posted on 03/02/2012 11:28:44 AM PST by EnjoyingLife
Hopefully, you will never find yourself in air-to-air combat with a Lockheed Martin F-22, particularly if you happen to be flying any other fighter besides an F-22. The Raptor still boasts a 30:1 kill ratio in mock dogfights (the only kind of dogfight, alas, the F-22 has ever known).
Notice, however, the ":1" part of the ratio expression. That's the proof: The F-22 can be shot down.
(Excerpt) Read more at flightglobal.com ...
I am sure he knows about the plane but he plays so much golf he might have forgotten to do this.
Yeah, just try and get in position to do that.
Well in the training dogfight where an EA-18G Growler got a kill on an F-22 it was due to good old target fixation. The F-22 pilot got so busy trying to lock up one fast maneuvering FA-18 that he forgot to check his six. The Growler flying ECM was able to get on his tail and take him out with a gun kill. All the stealth in the world doesn’t help when you are tracked by the MK-I human eyeball.
The Budget Cut is the most powerful weapon known to mankind. So far it is undefeated.
Remember gentlemen, ‘loose lips sink ships’ I’m so tired of every US weapons system gets ruined by the New York Times. Shut your mouths!
One F-22 might have a pretty good chance of shooting down another F-22?
Simple. Attack them in a ratio of 31:1. Sometimes, quantity has a quality all its own.
In other words, chances are slim and none! LOL! Slim does happen occasionally.
“Simple. Attack them in a ratio of 31:1. Sometimes, quantity has a quality all its own.”
That is assuming the quality of the aircrew is that of US standards. I doubt the Iranians or North Koreans would have such a “good” ratio of 30:1.
A General is saying this?
Is he going to give out the launch codes next?
* Put a woman in the pilot seat
He has already given them all of NASA and our latest drone technology and God only knows what other secrets he has given his brethren.
And the media continues to pretend they do not know why Israel does not want anything to do with him. Everyone knows exactly why. He has shown us directly multiple times that he is a friend to the Muslims first and foremost.
A quote in a book purportedly written by him, has him saying, "If things turn ugly, I stand with the Muslims." This is the President of the United States saying this. How much more clear can he be?
Can you imagine the firestorm if a President or even a candidate ever said something along the lines of, "If things turn ugly, I will stand with the Pope."?
He’s stopped production.
Maybe the new Avenger but smaller?
What a stupid and wicked thing to say. The #1 argument for having weapons like this is their deterrent effect. Our fighter fighter pilots are well-trained and expert at what they have to do, but I doubt there are many who look forward with pleasure to the prospect of aerial combat.
To defeat the F-22, cruise missile strike all airfields repeatedly.
**To defeat the F-22,**
Yep. The F-22's purpose is to create air supremacy by shooting down all the enemy fighters, so that our ground-attack planes can get through.
But there are only so many F-22s, and they each only carry a finite number of air-to-air missiles. So you send out SO MANY cheap drones that the F-22s use up their missiles trying to shoot them down, and with each missile launch they give away their position to an extent.
Purchase 35 times as many F-15 type aircraft, train the pilots decently and flail away? I think that would do it.
BS on the article and a lot of the comments in this thread.
Here is the facts on this scenario from someone who actually does this stuff:
Quoting Dozer— “The Hornet “snap” shot - good story. Happened here at Langley. It was a stock, combat configured F-22 flying a BFM (dogfighting) sortie against an airshow configured, i.e. squeeky clean, not combat configured or loaded, Super Hornet (not at all representative of how it performs with 8 pylons, an EA pod and 4-6 or missiles hanging off the rails and probably a fuel tank or two or their out of gas real quick...). It started from a 9000 foot line abreast 300 knot setup (which AF pilots never fly) where they turned into each other at the “fights on” call. It’s not a scenario we fly because we never find ourselves in those parameters, we try to set up realistic parameters we expect to see in combat - otherwise the lessons learned aren’t applicable and while it might be fun it’s not a good use of scarce training time. The Hornet pilot gave up everything he had to point at the Raptor and take a snap shot - it was NOT a tracking shot. The AF pilot honored the training rules we’re all supposed to abide by, they’ve been written in blood because pilots have been killed in these scenarios so our training rules look to prevent those scenarios by causing guys to quit manuevering for the shot to prevent a mid-air collision. With greater than a 135 aspect angle and inside of 9000 feet we’re supposed to avoid pure or lead pursuit to avoid that head on collision, inside that range at our tactical speeds there’s not enough time to react to prevent a collision once you realize it’s going to happen. The Navy pilot completely blew off that rule, the AF pilot honored it, the Navy pilot pulled lead pursuit all the way into the high aspect (greater than the 135 degree gun shot rule) snap shot, the AF pilot lagged off to prevent the mid-air collision potential, the Navy pilot was still on the trigger inside the 1000 foot rule (we’re supposed to avoid getting inside of 1000 feet from each other to also help prevent mid-air collisions), attempting to get the snap shot, he’s inside the 1000 foot range with the trigger on, flies within about 200 feet of the Raptor (remember who’s backed off to honor the training rules), and dang near kills himself and the Raptor pilot and causing what would have been one of the worst fighter to fighter disasters in recorded history. I’ve had that happen twice to me when I was flying the Eagle as a weapons officer (close enough to hear very loud engine noise and I figured I was dead both times, but God wasn’t ready to take me yet), and both times I knocked off the fight, made the guy fly home, busted him on the ride and he had to explain to me and the boss why he was being stupid. That is the ONLY gun shot video I have ever heard of or seen from ANY Hornet engagement, ever. And it was a hugely B.S. and completely boneheaded act as you can see from the actual circumstances.””
If I remember correctly - there was an Operation Red Flag execise in the 1970’s, simulating combat between T-38 trainers and F-16 fighters.
The T-38s were the Aggressor Squadron [simulating Russian MIGs] - and were allowed to modifiy their jets with Common Off The Shelf [COTS] equipment.
The Aggressor Squadron DEFEATED the F-16s [decisively]. Their secret - Automobile Radar Detectors tuned to the correct frequency AND the human eyeball ...
Did anyone notice the photo. The horizon (clouds) are angled. The 22 climbs at 70 degrees. Only true 90 degree vertical climb I’ve personally seen is F-15.
Raptor 189 left the nest yesterday!! Damn I’m going to miss them!!
The F-22 climbs at 90 and a whole lot faster. I’ve seen it bunches of times!
In the late 1970’s we took Phantoms from GAFB to Nellis and were able to accomplish kills v F-15’s. Of course they were developing tactics and learning to use the weapon system. With a little more experience these guys should be almost unbeatable, till a more advanced platform emerges.
Well of course it isn’t the most efficient way to gain altitude but it is the most impressive way to do it. The F-22 doesn’t just go vertical “briefly” it climbs almost out of sight. Very very impressive!!
That's an opinion not fact and the "kill" mentioned hasn't been the only one. In addition, Michael "Dozer" Shower is by no means an objective commentator.
Think of the collateral damage, man! A mere glance in its direction would be overkill.
I heard that the boogeyman sleeps with a nightlight on in case Chuck Norris is in his closet.
Back in the day, how long it took an interceptor to climb to the altitude of incoming enemy aircraft was a critical performance metric. I would think even in todays world world, altitude has great value.
Nobody wants to fight uphill, and everyone wants to fight going downhill.
I am no expert, but if you are taking off from point X to intercept incoming, if you climb at 70 degrees towards the incoming, you are cutting down the distance the incoming has to travel to reach you. If your calculation tells you that you are only going to be at 10K (with the incoming at 25K) by the time one of you is in weapons range, someone is going to be at a disadvantage.
Now, if you have a missile with 100 mile range, maybe the altitude difference doesn’t matter as much if you are still climbing when the incoming enters that 100 mile radius.
It is true, every dogfight has a dog in the fight...
Engaging a penetrating bomber as in the intercept you describe involves different tactics than engaging another fighter in close quarters. You are correct, altitude is an advantage in a dog fight scenario. Trading airspeed for altitude may be an appropriate tactic in some fights depending on the capabilities of the adversary.
I admit I am stuck in WWII era tactics, but I do have a copy of “Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering” by Robert Shaw written in 1985, so I imagine they still teach energy management.
That said, I humbly defer to those who have more recent, actual involvement in these things...:)
The F-18 was already “killed” pre-merge and acknowledge it was dead. . .and instead of departing the area for re-set, he pressed for a camera shot of opportunity.
The F-22 that was fighting a fight with other jets still “alive” and ignored the dead one.
And the pre-merge kill can’t be ignored.
I heard that Chuck Norris sleeps with a nightlight on 'cause the dark is scared of him.
Sorry AA, but if you analyze the photos that went with that “kill” and know the details of what that HUD displays you can see that it was nothing but an opportune snap shot of a passing F-22 after the fight was over. Airspeed, AOA and other parameters are such that the Hornet is out of airspeed, energy, HCA. and AOA to be pulling any lead on his shot.
I can give you lots of pipper kills for passing bogies like this one. One can get lots of easy kills after the Knock It Off call. The Air Force guys aren’t going to risk a quarter-billion dollar airframe for an ego trip.
Urban legend - never happened.
Even the Phantom could do a vertical climb. Light on fuel, not combat equipped. Saw it done at Pax River.
This was before the first F-14 was delivered.