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Man detained after legally bringing gun to school considers lawsuit, loses job offer (video)(MI)
mlive.com ^ | 2 March, 2012 | Heidi Fenton

Posted on 03/04/2012 6:38:52 AM PST by marktwain

GRAND RAPIDS — Nicholas Looman said he was not surprised the Kent County Prosecutor’s Office found he complied with state law while carrying a gun into an elementary school voting precinct this week.

He’s disheartened with what he sees as a lack of understanding with open-carry gun laws and has hired an attorney to “explore the possibility” of a lawsuit against local law enforcement authorities.

Looman questions whether being “detained” in an office at Aberdeen Elementary School on voting day violated his personal rights. He is upset with how the whole situation was handled.

"The prosecutor went out of his way to say I was being disingenuous or naive to be frustrated with police," Looman said of a statement released Friday afternoon. “The law is already on my side, all we have now is to make the public more aware of the laws."

In his written opinion, Prosecutor William Forsyth said Looman legally carried his pistol when he went to vote with the gun holstered in plain view at his waist. But he used “extremely poor judgement” in bringing the gun days after a school shooting in Ohio, Forsyth said.

“Did he really believe that by carrying a gun into an elementary school that no one would notice and that no one would react?”

Through a series of conflicting state laws and exceptions to laws, a person who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol can legally carry that weapon into a school, as long as it is visible.

Nicholas Looman Nicholas Looman Nicholas Looman comments about legally carrying a pistol. Watch video

The state’s “weapons-free school zone” law does not apply to a concealed weapons permit holder, but at the same time, a person with a permit may not carry a hidden weapon into a school, Forsyth said.

School officials are required by a state School Safety Response Guide to contact local law enforcement whenever a person with a gun enters a school building.

Grand Rapids Public Schools Spokesman John Helmholdt said he believes elementary staff acted correctly when contacting the Grand Rapids Police Department out of concern for students' safety. Forsyth said officers kept Looman in a school office only long enough to determine that he carried a valid concealed pistol license.

For Looman, this week has been an interesting one as he’s received feedback from near and far. He said several state lawmakers have contacted him to acknowledge their support and to say they were aware of the situation.

As Looman walked into a Grand Rapids hardware store this week, he says he heard a “Hey aren’t you that guy…?” as a man recognized him from news reports.

But he also lost a job he was to start soon at a West Michigan engineering firm. Looman signed an offer letter for the position before he went to vote Tuesday. The company reportedly retracted the offer Wednesday after hearing of the open-carry situation.

“Bad PR,” Looman said he was told.

Helmholdt said school leaders want the state Legislature to look at changing the state’s open-carry law, for both student safety and to clear up what appear to be inconsistencies in goals about guns in schools.

“We’re saying that right now, there is a lot of confusion across the state,” he said. “We want to respect the second amendment, but if we want anyplace to be weapons-free, it’s a school.”


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: Michigan
KEYWORDS: banglist; mi; michigan; opencarry; school
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"...if we want anyplace to be weapons-free, it’s a school.”

What possible reasons is there for that opinion, except to make sure that children are indoctrinated in the belief that carrying weapons is not socially acceptable?

The law banning weapons from schools are relatively recent.

1 posted on 03/04/2012 6:39:00 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

it must have just “ felt good “ arresting him dispite his RIGHT


2 posted on 03/04/2012 6:43:18 AM PST by SF_Redux (Sarah stands for accountablility and personal responsiblity, democrats can't live with that)
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To: marktwain

I live in Grand Rapids, and I APPLAUD this man. I also work in an engineering firm here, and would love to know which one did such a cowardly thing.

Another thing...I think we have seen how well those “gun-free schools” policy work.


3 posted on 03/04/2012 6:43:37 AM PST by kevslisababy
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To: marktwain

This goes to show the inherent bias that is being “Rahmed” down the throat of Americans.
It’s clear that the authorities knew that he was within the law as they waited until he had voted before accosting him. Had they prevented him from voting the 1983 civil rights action would have been delicious.
This is just more libtard window dressing that they are using to fire up their base. Watch for a ballot referendum that is aimed at “ending the voting loophole”.


4 posted on 03/04/2012 6:46:03 AM PST by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: marktwain
Through a series of conflicting state laws and exceptions to laws

That is the problem, not "poor judgement".

5 posted on 03/04/2012 6:47:25 AM PST by jiggyboy (Ten percent of poll respondents are either lying or insane)
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To: marktwain
But he also lost a job he was to start soon at a West Michigan engineering firm. Looman signed an offer letter for the position before he went to vote Tuesday. The company reportedly retracted the offer Wednesday after hearing of the open-carry situation.

There's a textbook, open and shut case. Of course, police immunity from incompetence re "conflicting laws" leaves him out of luck.

6 posted on 03/04/2012 6:49:10 AM PST by jiggyboy (Ten percent of poll respondents are either lying or insane)
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To: marktwain
Nicholas Looman Nicholas Looman Nicholas Looman comments about legally carrying a pistol.

What an unusual name!

7 posted on 03/04/2012 6:49:13 AM PST by Right Wing Assault (Dick Obama is more inexperienced now than he was before he was elected.)
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To: marktwain
Indiana has no carry in these places:
What places are off-limits when carrying a concealed weapon in Indiana?
1. In or On School Property.
2. On a school bus
3. In or on property that is being used by a school for a school function
4. Private School(IC 20*9.1*1*3) & (IC 35*41*1*24.7)
5. Head Start (IC 35*41*1*24.7)
6. Preschool (IC 35-41-1-24.7)
7. IC 35*47*9* 1 Allows the carry of firearms by persons permitted to possess and who are transporting a person to or from school or a school function.
8. On an aircraft
9. Controlled access areas of an airport
10. During annual State Fair 80 IAC 4-4-4 (Must lock in vehicle)
11. Shipping port 130 IAC 4-1-8 (Controlled by Indiana Port Commission)
12. A riverboat Casino
8 posted on 03/04/2012 6:51:26 AM PST by Bronzy (Send a NEWTron to Obama!)
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To: Springman; sergeantdave; cyclotic; netmilsmom; RatsDawg; PGalt; FreedomHammer; queenkathy; ...
Related to the first ping.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
9 posted on 03/04/2012 6:52:34 AM PST by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: marktwain
SUE THEIR BUTTS.

It will have great educational value for everyone involved and it is the only way that people are going to learn -- quit messing with gun owners!!!!!

The ability to KEEP and BEAR arms is a God-given right, protected by the US Constitution. Any law that infringes upon that right is ILLEGITIMATE!!!!!!!

Getting so sick of a) these namby-pamby people who are "afraid of guns..." and b) gun owners being bullied by people in power (police) who ought to know better!!!!

10 posted on 03/04/2012 6:57:36 AM PST by Jerrybob
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To: marktwain

“School officials are required by a state School Safety Response Guide to contact local law enforcement whenever a person with a gun enters a school building. “

He needs to sue the State School Safety board as well.

If it’s not illegal to open carry in a school, why would school officials be REQUIRED to report someone with a gun?


11 posted on 03/04/2012 7:00:49 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: Bigh4u2

I should have added:

This is ‘back door’ gun control.

And should be deemed illegal.


12 posted on 03/04/2012 7:02:42 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: marktwain

Why is there “intent” in nearly every facet of the law except with regards to guns. This has got to change.


13 posted on 03/04/2012 7:05:16 AM PST by Red in Blue PA (Read SCOTUS Castle Rock vs Gonzales before dialing 911!)
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To: SF_Redux

According to the article, he was not arrested, he was detained. Big difference.


14 posted on 03/04/2012 7:30:20 AM PST by Glennb51
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To: Bigh4u2

In most circumstances it is illegal to carry in a school. How is the school to know if a guy who shows up is legally carrying or not?


15 posted on 03/04/2012 7:43:03 AM PST by stormer
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To: marktwain

“...if we want anyplace to be weapons-free, it’s a school.”

“What possible reasons is there for that opinion, except to make sure that children are indoctrinated in the belief that carrying weapons is not socially acceptable?”

So the criminals have the best chance at shooting as many students and teaching faculty as possible before the cops can make it there. Why else?


16 posted on 03/04/2012 7:43:21 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Glennb51

Yes - and apparently only to determine if he was legally carrying or not. As far as the job offer, are people here saying that a company cannot hire whoever they want?


17 posted on 03/04/2012 7:45:38 AM PST by stormer
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To: Right Wing Assault
Nicholas Looman Nicholas Looman Nicholas Looman comments about legally carrying a pistol.

What an unusual name!

Just a little more unusual than Mary Hartman Mary Hartman.

Maybe he'll get his own tv show.

18 posted on 03/04/2012 7:49:48 AM PST by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: stormer
In most circumstances it is illegal to carry in a school. How is the school to know if a guy who shows up is legally carrying or not?

Hello....

The school didn't just suddenly appear overnight, transported from some town in some other state. The school, like any other business, needs to make itself aware of any laws that affect it.

19 posted on 03/04/2012 7:55:24 AM PST by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: mountn man

That doesn’t answer my question...


20 posted on 03/04/2012 7:57:35 AM PST by stormer
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To: marktwain
“Did he really believe that by carrying a gun into an elementary school that no one would notice and that no one would react?”

Well, the state expects US to know all laws and comply with them even if they DON'T make sense, so even if the prosecutor feels that way about this law, why should this man NOT have had that expectation?

21 posted on 03/04/2012 8:05:22 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: stormer
Yes - and apparently only to determine if he was legally carrying or not. As far as the job offer, are people here saying that a company cannot hire whoever they want?

The gentleman carrying the gun has every right to exercise his right, in whatever way legally allowed.

Likewise, the owner of the company has every right not to hire him, if he doesn't like the manner in which he exercises his right.

A person has the right of freedom of speech. If a person doesn't like what he said or the manner in which he said it, he's not obligated to hire him.

2 or more people, with similar qualifications, apply for the same job, I'll hire who I feel more comfortable with. That comfort might include clothing style, grooming, language or dialect, hobbies or interests (rapport). Any number of things that are directly or indirectly related to the job.

If there is 1 job opening, but 2-3 or more candidates, only one is going to be hired, the other(s) will be "discriminated" against.

22 posted on 03/04/2012 8:09:34 AM PST by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: Bigh4u2

“If it’s not illegal to open carry in a school, why would school officials be REQUIRED to report someone with a gun?”

To ensure that there is an interaction with law enforcement, thereby making it cumbersome to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights. I would also sue for wrongful termination, since the employer stated that incident to be the reason why.

Built in conflict = deprivation or diminution of rights.


23 posted on 03/04/2012 8:30:04 AM PST by Bshaw (A nefarious deceit is upon us all!)
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To: stormer

“In most circumstances it is illegal to carry in a school”

But not in this circumstance.

The school should know this and it’s not necessary for them to know if it’s ‘legal’. That’s not their decision to make.


24 posted on 03/04/2012 8:31:11 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: Bigh4u2

So anyone with a gun strapped to their hip should be able to wander around a school? And it wasn’t the school’s decision; that’s why they called the police.


25 posted on 03/04/2012 8:39:08 AM PST by stormer
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To: marktwain
Through a series of conflicting state laws and exceptions to laws,
a person who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol
can legally carry that weapon into a school, as long as it is visible.

HUH???????

26 posted on 03/04/2012 8:40:27 AM PST by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: marktwain
Everyone was just doing their job, but Mr Looman lost his job offer which could be worth $$$,$$$ or more.

It appears Mr Looman has suffered a financial loss. The word damages comes to mind.

During a recession/depression will he be able to find a job that has pay equal to the job offer with a week or two? If not someone has a problem.

If we see lawyers lining up to take his case for 1/3 of any damages recovered we will have some answers very quickly as to who has harmed this citizen.

27 posted on 03/04/2012 8:42:03 AM PST by TYVets (Pure-Gas.org ..... ethanol free gasoline by state and city)
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To: stormer

Upon further review...

You are correct.

Though the RIGHT to bear arms is a right. To conceal or open carry requires a permit. The school had no idea if this person was permited to carry, and so had the right to question or restrict said person. Likewise, police also had the right to detain for verifying purposes. The same as stopping a driver of a car and checking if they have a valid drivers license.

28 posted on 03/04/2012 8:47:49 AM PST by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: Bshaw; Bigh4u2
Its not ILLEGAL to open carry in the school.

But according to the article

A person must have a permit to conceal carry, but in a school the gun must be visible.

Though the man was legal and following the law, the law dictates that one must have a permit to carry. The school had no idea if that man had a permit or not, so had no idea if he was or was not legally carrying, and thus had every right to call police.

On the other hand, if no permits were required to carry a firearm, and the man was not violating any laws. Then there would be a violation of ones freedom of exercise of rights.

29 posted on 03/04/2012 9:00:02 AM PST by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: Glennb51

I just don’t see any difference

ar·rest (-rst)
v. ar·rest·ed, ar·rest·ing, ar·rests
v.tr.
1. To stop; check: a brake that automatically arrests motion; arrested the growth of the tumor.
2. To seize and hold under the authority of law.
3. To capture and hold briefly (the attention, for example); engage.
v.intr.
To undergo cardiac arrest: The patient arrested en route to the hospital.
n.
1.
a. The act of detaining in legal custody: the arrest of a criminal suspect.
b. The state of being so detained: a criminal under arrest.
2. A device for stopping motion, especially of a moving part.
3. The act of stopping or the condition of being stopped.


30 posted on 03/04/2012 9:01:50 AM PST by SF_Redux (Sarah stands for accountablility and personal responsiblity, democrats can't live with that)
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To: kevslisababy

My nephew works for a large construction company here in S.E. Michigan. This past summer the president of the company offered to pay for the classes and license fees necessary to obtain CCW permits for all his job estimators and sales staff.........I thought that was pretty cool


31 posted on 03/04/2012 9:04:05 AM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: stormer

In a word.. yes.

And he wasn’t ‘wandering around the school’. He went there for a specific purpose.

So it’s ok to give up ‘some’ rights just because you wouldn’t feel ‘safe’ because someone is carrying a gun?

How many more rights are you willing to give up because of ‘PC’ garbage?

“And it wasn’t the school’s decision; that’s why they called the police.”

It absolutely WAS the schools decision to call the police and there was no reason to.

They only called the police because they feared the ‘big bad gun’ he had on his hip.


32 posted on 03/04/2012 9:06:37 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: TYVets
This could be tricky.

First. Was there an actual offer by the company TO Mr. Looman?

Or was he just a candidate for the job?

Next, did Mr. Looman accept the offer? Basically making a contract between him and the company.

If no offer was made, then I would think the company is free to pursue any other candidate that they choose.

If an offer WAS made, then it could be a legal issue of semantics.

33 posted on 03/04/2012 9:07:17 AM PST by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: marktwain

Wasn’t this the guy who went wandering through the school hallways and when detained said that he was proving a point how easy it was to bring a weapon into a “gunfree zone”?


34 posted on 03/04/2012 9:09:07 AM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: SF_Redux

From a legal perspective there is a big defference. For example, if you’ve ever been pulled over for a traffic stop, you’ve been detained. It is only for the purpose of conducting an investigation and is generally accepted to be limited in time. If during that traffic stop the police determine that you are intoxicated, then you will be arrested and taken into custody where you will be processed for the purpose of further legal proceedings.


35 posted on 03/04/2012 9:16:47 AM PST by stormer
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To: mountn man
a person who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol can legally carry that weapon into a school, as long as it is visible.

It sounds like they are addressing the "CCW permit holder" only since Michigan is an "Open Carry" state.

For what it's worth tho, I have a CCW permit and consider myself fairly knowledgable about state firearms laws and all that I've been taught and all that I've read has said that all schools are "gun free zones" meaning no guns at all.........

I learn something every day here......

With that being said, this should also bring up the issue of whether or not a school can prevent a teacher from carrying an open firearm without them being punished for it......

36 posted on 03/04/2012 9:17:57 AM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: mountn man
To conceal or open carry requires a permit.

No one needs a permit to openly carry a firearm in Michigan.......

37 posted on 03/04/2012 9:20:05 AM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: mountn man

“A person must have a permit to conceal carry, but in a school the gun must be visible.”

Then it’s not ‘concealed carry’ at that point and the ‘visible’ gun rule should be considered normal ‘procedure’ under the law.

If that were not the case, then why have an ‘open carry’ rule to begin with?

By that reasoning, even the person with a ‘concealed carry’ in public would have the police called on them if even an inch of the holster was visible by accident.

Concealed carry laws are ridiculous on their face to begin with.

The Second Amendment has no such limitations on ‘bearing arms’.

“On the other hand, if no permits were required to carry a firearm, and the man was not violating any laws. Then there would be a violation of ones freedom of exercise of rights.”

Exactly so.


38 posted on 03/04/2012 9:25:30 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: Bigh4u2
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2012/02/man_who_brought_to_gun_to_scho.html: "Looman came into the school through an entry designated for voters, then after voting, walked into the main portion of the school with a weapon clearly visible." I.e., wandering around.

And I hope I don't need to point out that in a neighboring state and a day before this incident a young man with a "big bad gun" killed three kids in a school. By your logic, if rather than concealing his weapon if he'd simply worn it in a holster, right up to the point where he pulled the weapon, no one should have been able to challenge him as to his intentions.

39 posted on 03/04/2012 9:29:06 AM PST by stormer
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To: Bigh4u2

“It absolutely WAS the schools decision to call the police and there was no reason to.”

No. http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2012/03/nicholas_looman_not_surprised.html “School officials are required by a state School Safety Response Guide to contact local law enforcement whenever a person with a gun enters a school building.”


40 posted on 03/04/2012 9:34:37 AM PST by stormer
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To: stormer

““School officials are required by a state School Safety Response Guide to contact local law enforcement whenever a person with a gun enters a school building.”

Did you even bother to read my first post??


41 posted on 03/04/2012 9:37:02 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: mountn man

The article states Looman signed the offer letter before going to vote;if I were the jury ,he would be awarded damages for wrongful termination unless his actions were specifically and legally prohobited by the employment contract.


42 posted on 03/04/2012 9:44:39 AM PST by hoosierham (Freedom isn't free)
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To: Bigh4u2
If the person with the weapon does not have a concealed weapons permit it IS illegal for them to carry on school premises. By their own guidelines, which are no doubt the product of both the state legislature and the superintendent of public instruction, the school is obliged to contact law enforcement and allow them to determine if the person with the gun is in compliance.
43 posted on 03/04/2012 9:45:01 AM PST by stormer
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To: Hot Tabasco

“No one needs a permit to openly carry a firearm in Michigan.......”

Unless you are in a school.


44 posted on 03/04/2012 9:46:15 AM PST by stormer
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To: marktwain

The guy was certainly legally correct to wear his gun into the school but he was just plain dumb or stubborn. Leave your pistol in the car while you vote or at home if leaving it in the car isn’t legal. If he had reason to think entering the school was dangerous, contact the authorities and voice your concerns.

I’m solidly for CCW but some common sense should be exercised when entering a school for the few minutes it takes to vote. This smacks of the guy being a publicity seeker.

OTOH, you never know when the criminal or nut will start something, but still, common sense should have prevailed in this case I believe.


45 posted on 03/04/2012 9:47:16 AM PST by citizen (The Dims will all unite for Zero. We must soon unite behind our challenger and back him to victory!)
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To: stormer
"Looman came into the school through an entry designated for voters, then after voting, walked into the main portion of the school with a weapon clearly visible." I.e., wandering around. "

How else to you get into a school but through the "Main portion" or entrance of the school?

Sorry, but you defining it as 'wandering around' doesn't cut it, and is not supported in the article.

"In his written opinion, Prosecutor William Forsyth said Looman legally carried his pistol when he went to vote with the gun holstered in plain view at his waist. "

As has been pointed out in another post, Michigan has no 'open carry' law requiring a permit so the argument of the necessity to 'report' him for having a gun is moot.

"neighboring state "

Seriously?

So a crime is committed in a different state and you think it applies to Michigan?

Your argument is nothing but a strawman to try to bolster your point.

All it is doing is proving how much of a reactionary you are.
46 posted on 03/04/2012 9:47:41 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: stormer
Unless you are in a school.

You're right, I was wrong. To openly carry in a school a CPL is required. What I also found was that that's a Federal law and that the state has no such restrictions.....

47 posted on 03/04/2012 9:59:27 AM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: stormer

Show me the ‘law’, because it doesn’t exist.

“PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act (BAR).”

http://miopencarry.weebly.com/

‘Schools’ are not listed as ‘off limits’.

“Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute. “

Of which ‘schools’ are not one of the ‘prohibited’ places.


48 posted on 03/04/2012 10:01:49 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: Hot Tabasco

No, he’s not right..

See my post below.

Schools are not on the ‘prohibited places’ list.


49 posted on 03/04/2012 10:02:46 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: citizen

Ah yes... What a stupid man for thinking he could actually *use* a right he has according to your constitution.

Clearly he should have just given up his right. It’s not as if doing so will water it down and utlimately ensure that right is lost. /s


50 posted on 03/04/2012 10:10:20 AM PST by LastNorwegian
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