Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Loose cable blamed for speedy neutrinos
Science News ^ | 2/23/2012 | Devin Powell

Posted on 03/06/2012 1:16:25 AM PST by U-238

Faulty wiring has been proposed as the glitch that caused a European physics experiment to clock particles flying faster than light.

Scientists at Italy’s OPERA experiment reported in September that nearly weightless particles called neutrinos were apparently traveling from the CERN laboratory on the Swiss-French border to an underground detector in Italy, 730 kilometers away, faster than the speed of light. The apparent violation of Einstein’s theory of special relativity immediately produced a chorus of theorists offering reasons why neutrinos simply could not be going that fast (SN: 11/5/11, p. 10).

“It was always clear to me that the results could not have been true,” says Nobel Prize-winner Sheldon Glashow, a physicist at Boston University and an early critic of the finding.

Yet during a second run of the experiment in November, neutrinos again appeared to arrive in Italy 60 nanoseconds earlier than light covering the same distance in a vacuum would have (SN: 10/22/11, p. 18).

On February 23 the OPERA team announced what might be causing the surprising observations: A bad connection with a cable that relays satellite GPS signals to keep the experiment’s clocks in sync could have made each particle’s trip seem to take less time than it actually did.

(Excerpt) Read more at sciencenews.org ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: astrophysics; cern; neutrinos; opera; physics; speedoflight; stringtheory; xplanets

1 posted on 03/06/2012 1:16:32 AM PST by U-238
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: KevinDavis; SunkenCiv

Ping


2 posted on 03/06/2012 1:18:42 AM PST by U-238
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: U-238

“It was always clear to me that the results could not have been true,”

And why is that?


3 posted on 03/06/2012 1:47:54 AM PST by MestaMachine (obama kills)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: U-238
“It was always clear to me that the results could not have been true,” says Nobel Prize-winner Sheldon Glashow, a physicist at Boston University and an early critic of the finding.

I was also an early critic.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

^^

4 posted on 03/06/2012 2:01:40 AM PST by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MestaMachine
because modern physics and its equations prohibit the idea if going faster than the speed of light,,,, it would have required a change of our fundamental understanding if how things work
5 posted on 03/06/2012 2:08:46 AM PST by Nifster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SIDENET

shhhh don’t let the LENR folks know.....


6 posted on 03/06/2012 2:10:38 AM PST by Nifster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Nifster

Oh...and they have never had to ‘rethink’ their assumptions and/or theories? Only almost always. WHAT moves ‘light’?


7 posted on 03/06/2012 2:14:14 AM PST by MestaMachine (obama kills)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: U-238

Bummer.

I loved the idea of a faster than light, zero mass, infinitely large neutrino bubble digging itself through the heart of southern Europe.

Guess I’ll just have to wait for the real excitement when CERN generates an accidental Black Hole.


8 posted on 03/06/2012 2:14:37 AM PST by zeestephen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MestaMachine

your question makes no sense....light has no mass, It is a wave that is produced after the relaxation of a quantized state


9 posted on 03/06/2012 2:17:54 AM PST by Nifster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: U-238

Been there...Done that...


10 posted on 03/06/2012 2:18:05 AM PST by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MestaMachine

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around E=MC2 .
If nothing can go faster than C how does that work?

Signed Confused.


11 posted on 03/06/2012 2:19:12 AM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Nifster

Can you block it so that it ceases moving?


12 posted on 03/06/2012 2:24:00 AM PST by MestaMachine (obama kills)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Nifster
Re: “Light Has No Mass”

Don't tell that to Mr. Photon.

Ever shine a flashlight into vacuum jar and start an aluminum vane spinning around?

13 posted on 03/06/2012 2:40:21 AM PST by zeestephen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: U-238

It’s been proven time and time again that matter CAN go faster than light, the latest example being how the networks covered Rush calling that woman a slut almost before he said it. It’s also been proven that time can come to a standstill, such as when a liberal calls someone a sut and it never gets reported for infinity.


14 posted on 03/06/2012 3:25:13 AM PST by GrandJediMasterYoda (How ironic that Ann Coulter should write a book called Treason.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen

Please explain?


15 posted on 03/06/2012 3:25:51 AM PST by MrDaddyLongLegs (You dont need any qualifications to be a Politician)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: U-238

in attempting to create a black hole. the euro scientists assured us the results of their experiments would be contained

Just what have european electricians wrought?

Remembering that humorous graphic of the earth swallowing itself....


16 posted on 03/06/2012 3:50:11 AM PST by silverleaf (Funny how all the people who are for abortion are already born)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tet68

Try:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence#First_derivation_.281905.29

It’s about as simple as it gets. You could try

http://www.amazon.com/Special-Relativity-M-I-T-Introductory-Physics/dp/0393097935

The book only requires a good grasp of high school physics and math. Good luck.


17 posted on 03/06/2012 4:01:59 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Ceterum autem censeo, Obama delenda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen

Those toy radiometers have nothing whatsoever to do with radiation pressure, are not in a vacuum and spin counter to the direction of radiation pressure.

The vanes have one side white and the other dark. If the mechanism were radiation pressure, the light recoiling off the white side would exert twice the radiation pressure experienced by the dark side absorbing them. The mechanism is heat, they are tiny heat engines, the dark side is warmed more by the light than the white side and the heated air molecules carry off more momentum on the dark side than the light.

Radiation pressure is also expected from Maxwell’s equations and is consistent with E= mc2. See the wiki link in my post above for Einstein’s correct derivation.


18 posted on 03/06/2012 4:12:54 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Ceterum autem censeo, Obama delenda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: silverleaf
I found a black hole using Google Earth... 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue!

LLS

19 posted on 03/06/2012 4:26:55 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (WOLVERINES!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: MestaMachine

His name is Sheldon...... how could he be wrong?


20 posted on 03/06/2012 4:29:57 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 ..... Crucifixion is coming)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: bert

I remember that as a kid!

LLS


21 posted on 03/06/2012 4:30:43 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (WOLVERINES!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: U-238
Obviously, physicists are not as smart as climate scientists; no matter what happens, it’s always proof for climate change!
22 posted on 03/06/2012 4:54:25 AM PST by cartan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: U-238

But they were so CERNtain. Oh well...time for another Brain Depuckerization Treatment.


23 posted on 03/06/2012 5:05:55 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen

It always bugged me when physicists use the figure of speech that photons have no mass. They have energy, and any 9th grade algebra student can prove then that a photon’s mass = E/c^2. Maybe in theory if a photon could be brought to rest it would have no mass, but then it would still have relativistic mass since it is at rest only relative to something else. And while we’re at it, I wish ‘they’ would make up their minds and let us know if gravity is really a force or just an effect of curved space. ‘They’ seem to try to have it both ways on that one all the time too.


24 posted on 03/06/2012 5:15:07 AM PST by JTHomes (Free markets now!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Nifster

—...it would have required a change of our fundamental understanding if how things work...—

Which often is the beginning of new discoveries. :-)


25 posted on 03/06/2012 5:36:06 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: U-238
A 'loose wire'? I read over week ago on a Physics website that the error was due to a calibration problem with the equipment.

The oddest thing was that the link to it was on the web page from an article on Slate, I thought Slate went kaput
(yes I debugged by computer and killed all the cooties)

26 posted on 03/06/2012 5:41:03 AM PST by Condor51 (Yo Hoffa, so you want to 'take out conservatives'. Well okay Jr - I'm your Huckleberry)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen
Guess I’ll just have to wait for the real excitement when CERN generates an accidental Black Hole.

LHC webcams

27 posted on 03/06/2012 6:07:58 AM PST by justlurking (The only remedy for a bad guy with a gun is a good WOMAN (Sgt. Kimberly Munley) with a gun)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: U-238

“It was always clear to me that the results could not have been true,”

No doubt, he was expecting them to have to slow down when they turned over the edge of the earth and started across the other side.

Hope the guy realizes that dogma can be like a pit bull.


28 posted on 03/06/2012 6:41:18 AM PST by rod1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: U-238

Graduates from East Anglia sckool of siense.


29 posted on 03/06/2012 7:31:59 AM PST by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: U-238
Duh.

Winning.

30 posted on 03/06/2012 7:37:38 AM PST by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibLieSlayer
I found a black hole using Google Earth... 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue!

If you were referring to Michelle, you are correct.

If you were referring to Barack, it is only a half black hole.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

31 posted on 03/06/2012 7:44:18 AM PST by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen

And that effect is cause by the heating of the vane not anything else....Lord you know so little fundamental science


32 posted on 03/06/2012 8:23:48 AM PST by Nifster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: MestaMachine

Are you asking me if there is such a thing as a gem block or beam dump? Or is your notion of ‘moving’ merely referring to light’s vibrational frequencies....your choice of words indicate a confusion about science


33 posted on 03/06/2012 8:25:47 AM PST by Nifster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: cuban leaf

No doubt but when one hers hoof steps it is important to look for horses before zebras unless you are on the savannas of Africa or at the zoo.


34 posted on 03/06/2012 8:27:26 AM PST by Nifster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: LonePalm

Yes... I stand corrected.

LLS


35 posted on 03/06/2012 9:14:48 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (WOLVERINES!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Nifster

“Lord you know so little fundamental science.”

Well, you're at least half right.

I haven't thought about radiometers in 50 years, so, guilty, your honor, I thought they were vacuum sealed, and I thought the motion was caused by photons agitating the electrons in the vane.

As to fundamental science, hmmm, I think I could still crack the top 10 percentile on a standardized test.

I know that photons have no mass, but I always assumed that was a theoretical convenience that allowed them to have properties of both waves and particles.

And, as I recall, it is theoretically impossible for a photon to have zero mass inside a super conductor.

But I'm sure you'll set me straight if I'm mistaken.

36 posted on 03/06/2012 2:12:17 PM PST by zeestephen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: silverleaf

It was a success. The “mini” black hole was contained.


37 posted on 03/06/2012 3:31:05 PM PST by U-238
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: cartan

We should be discussing modern physics.The term modern physics refers to the post-Newtonian conception of physics. The term implies that classical descriptions of phenomena are lacking, and that an accurate, “modern”, description of reality requires theories to incorporate elements of quantum mechanics or Einsteinian relativity, or both. In general, the term is used to refer to any branch of physics either developed in the early 20th century and onwards, or branches greatly influenced by early 20th century physics. This is what the scientists at CERN are using.


38 posted on 03/06/2012 3:54:52 PM PST by U-238
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: cartan

http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/252/

Remember, modern physics is all theoretical.


39 posted on 03/06/2012 3:58:18 PM PST by U-238
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: KevinDavis; annie laurie; Knitting A Conundrum; Viking2002; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Mmogamer; ...
Thanks U-238.
 
X-Planets
· join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post new topic · subscribe ·
Google news searches: exoplanet · exosolar · extrasolar ·

40 posted on 03/06/2012 9:28:31 PM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: U-238; AdmSmith; bvw; callisto; ckilmer; dandelion; ganeshpuri89; gobucks; KevinDavis; ...
Thanks U-238.

· String Theory Ping List ·
Bitch Slap, nope, Newton, Third Law
· Join · Bookmark · Topics · Google ·
· View or Post in 'blog · post a topic · subscribe ·


41 posted on 03/06/2012 9:28:35 PM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: zeestephen

The finer point is that a photon is a fundamental quantum particle....it has no mass at rest. The radiometer works because the vanes you mentioned are both dark and light ( usually black and white) and the heating of them is differential which causes the spinning.

Photons have been observed to behave as both particles and waves which is why the duality of light is such a difficult concept to teach to beginning physics students. Theoretical constructs can be useful but this was derived by scientific testing


42 posted on 03/06/2012 10:10:54 PM PST by Nifster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson