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Iraq militia stone youths to death for "emo" style (Obama hands over Iraq to Iran)
reuters ^ | 3/10/2012 | Ahmed Rasheed and Mohammed Ameer

Posted on 03/11/2012 12:12:06 PM PDT by tobyhill

At least 14 youths have been stoned to death in Baghdad in the past three weeks in what appears to be a campaign by Shi'ite militants against youths wearing Western-style "emo" clothes and haircuts, security and hospital sources say.

Militants in Shi'ite neighborhoods where the stonings have taken place circulated lists on Saturday naming more youths targeted to be killed if they do not change the way they dress.

The killings have taken place since Iraq's interior ministry drew attention to the "emo" subculture last month, labeling it "Satanism" and ordering a community police force to stamp it out.

"Emo" is a form of punk music developed in the United States. Fans are known for their distinctive dress, often including tight jeans, T-shirts with logos and distinctive long or spiky haircuts.

At least 14 bodies of youths have been brought to three hospitals in eastern Baghdad bearing signs of having been beaten to death with rocks or bricks, security and hospital sources told Reuters under condition they not be identified because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: emo; iran; iraq; shiites

1 posted on 03/11/2012 12:12:09 PM PDT by tobyhill
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To: tobyhill

I just read from an English translate newspaper from Iraq that the number was 90+, that they have found 90 bodies so far.
1 or 1000 it is still disgusting.


2 posted on 03/11/2012 12:15:18 PM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: tobyhill
Iraqi teenagers stoned to death for "emo" haircuts (Ah, yes, more from the religion of peace!)
03/11/2012 12:39:07 AM PST · by jda · 15 replies
alakhbar English ^ | 09 March 2012
At least 90 Iraqi teenagers with "emo" appearances have been stoned to death by religious extremists in Baghdad in the past month after an inflammatory interior ministry statement dubbed it "devil worshiping", activists said. Iraq's Moral Police released a chilling statement on the interior ministry's website condemning the "emo phenomenon" among Iraqi youth, disturbingly declaring its intent to "eliminate" the trend. "The 'Emo phenomenon' or devil worshiping is being followed by the Moral Police who have the approval to eliminate [the phenomenon] as soon as possible since it's detrimentally affecting the society and becoming a danger," the statement read. {snip}...

Iraqi teenagers stoned to death for "emo" haircuts
03/10/2012 8:27:45 PM PST · by Free ThinkerNY · 14 replies
al-akhbar.com ^ | March 9, 2012
At least 90 Iraqi teenagers with "emo" appearances have been stoned to death by religious extremists in Baghdad in the past month after an inflammatory interior ministry statement dubbed it "devil worshiping", activists said. Iraq's Moral Police released a chilling statement on the interior ministry's website condemning the "emo phenomenon" among Iraqi youth, disturbingly declaring its intent to "eliminate" the trend. "The 'Emo phenomenon' or devil worshiping is being followed by the Moral Police who have the approval to eliminate [the phenomenon] as soon as possible since it's detrimentally affecting the society and becoming a danger," the statement read. "They...

Iraqi teenagers stoned to death for “emo” haircuts
03/10/2012 7:53:46 AM PST · by bayouranger · 27 replies
faithfreedom.org ^ | 10MAR12 | Ali Sina
At least 90 Iraqi teenagers with “emo” appearances have been stoned to death by religious extremists in Baghdad in the past month after an inflammatory interior ministry statement dubbed it “devil worshiping”, activists said. Iraq’s Moral Police released a chilling statement on the interior ministry’s website condemning the “emo phenomenon” among Iraqi youth, disturbingly declaring its intent to “eliminate” the trend. “The ‘Emo phenomenon’ or devil worshiping is being followed by the Moral Police who have the approval to eliminate [the phenomenon] as soon as possible since it’s detrimentally affecting the society and becoming a danger,” the statement read. “They...

Dozens of Iraqi teenagers stoned to death for ‘emo’ haircuts: activists
03/09/2012 5:38:10 PM PST · by Zhang Fei · 211 replies
Al Arabiya News ^ | Friday, 09 March 2012 | Al Arabiya
Iraqi activists sounded the bell over the killing of dozens of teenagers by religious police for having “emo” haircuts. Activists told the Cairo-based al-Akhbar daily that at least 90 Iraqi teenagers with “emo” appearances have been stoned to death by the Moral Police in the country in the past month. The violent crackdown against “emo” Iraqi teenagers came after the Iraqi interior ministry declared them as “devil worshippers.” “The ‘Emo phenomenon’ or devil worshiping is being probed by the Moral Police who have the approval to eliminate it as soon as possible since it’s detrimentally affecting the society and becoming...

3 posted on 03/11/2012 12:16:17 PM PDT by Keith in Iowa (Willard Romney, purveyor of the world's finest bullmitt. | FR Class of 1998 |)
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To: tobyhill

We sure fixed Iraq real good.


4 posted on 03/11/2012 12:17:57 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: tobyhill

The “youths” need to fight back.


5 posted on 03/11/2012 12:19:41 PM PDT by Brilliant
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To: tobyhill

This was predictable from the beginning. Invading Iraq and deposing Saddam was a huge mistake. Thug that he was, Saddam was a counter to Iran. Bush and the people who thought they could turn Iraq into a model democracy are the ones at fault. It merely empowered a new set of thugs. The real tragedy is the lives that were lost in this futile endeavor. My heart grieves for the wounded and for the families of those who died. May God comfort them.

Even if Obama were not an incompetent boob, there is no way Iraq was going to turn out well for us. In the future, we need leaders who are not so cavalier about deploying our troops.


6 posted on 03/11/2012 12:21:43 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX ( The state is the great fiction by which everybody seeks to live at the expense of everybody else. ~)
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To: Travis McGee
Libya, Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, etc, all signs of the greatest “Arab Spring” ever. /sarc
7 posted on 03/11/2012 12:26:49 PM PDT by tobyhill (Fight Fire With Fire)
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To: Pining_4_TX

The fact we wen in as we did aside, the worst thing IMO we did once we deposed Saddam was “ALLOW” the koranimals to govern under islam. Had we done what we did to Japan/Germany, there would have been a ‘small’ chance they could have made something work.

In hindsight, it would likely never work, but what we did do (NOT our soldiers mind you, I mean the damn State dept lawyers and Bush/Obama) ensured a bad outcome.


8 posted on 03/11/2012 12:30:06 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: Pining_4_TX
Bush didn't just invade Iraq to depose of Saddam even though that was the pretext, it WAS to set up permanent bases there to counter any Iranian threats, even if the Shiites controlled Iraq. Iraq is the most logistical to counter any and all threats in the area the same way Germany was for Europe.
9 posted on 03/11/2012 12:32:10 PM PDT by tobyhill (Fight Fire With Fire)
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To: Pining_4_TX
It merely empowered a new set of thugs.

And the thugs have a religion behind them.

The Koran:

Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter of non-believers...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make them prisoners,"

Sura (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"

Sura (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end

From the Hadith:

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’”

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

The Koran and hadiths are replete with examples of Muhammad's barbaric behavior. Robert Spencer does a good job here explaining Islam - Blogging the Qur’an Start at the bottom.

10 posted on 03/11/2012 12:34:20 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: tobyhill

Obama hands over every ounce of American blood to the Muslim lunatics. In Iraq AND in Afghanistan.


11 posted on 03/11/2012 12:36:47 PM PDT by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to the tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: Norm Lenhart
Had we done what we did to Japan/Germany

I think we bombed the Japanese into submission? And didn't we hold some kind of dance at Dresden in Germany? I heard it was a real barn-burner. Let the good times roll.

12 posted on 03/11/2012 12:36:51 PM PDT by bigheadfred
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To: tobyhill

How exactly does “emo” stand out when 95% of the women are sporting full-length black burqas? It’d be like daring to wear an Abercombie and Fitch shirt at an American prep school.


13 posted on 03/11/2012 12:39:31 PM PDT by sthguard (The DNC theme song: "All You Need is Guv")
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To: Pining_4_TX
...not so cavalier about deploying our troops …

At least with no sense of mission.

14 posted on 03/11/2012 12:44:39 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: tobyhill

“emo” style? Dang, those kids know more about our culture than I do....


15 posted on 03/11/2012 12:48:56 PM PDT by Hatteras
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To: Norm Lenhart

It was a bargain for short-term peace. The military sought out the ‘sheikhs.’ That’s like turning neighborhood control over to the oldest guy in the area — likely a devout Muslim. It worked when we needed help against Saddam’s dead-enders an foreign jihadis. But now these local mafiosi see us as the problem.


16 posted on 03/11/2012 12:49:49 PM PDT by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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To: Travis McGee; tobyhill; ntnychik; dixiechick2000; nuconvert
http://oi41.tinypic.com/2ur860i.jpg

Bush's intent was to flank Iran from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Hussein is working toward the day when our presence will be as imperceptible as sand castles on the beach.

Hussein's Arab Spring is the systematic replacement of secular regimes with Islamist ones.

Hussein's agenda was obvious from his first appearance on the national scene.


17 posted on 03/11/2012 12:49:56 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hussein: Islamo-Commie from Kenya)
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To: tobyhill

They should just cut the Emos with knives, they’d probably enjoy that.


18 posted on 03/11/2012 12:49:56 PM PDT by dfwgator (Don't wake up in a roadside ditch. Get rid of Romney.)
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To: bigheadfred

Not just that, but force ‘hope and change’ on them after.

Japan and Germany were not allowed to just keep on keepin’ on. They did what we ‘let’ them do. If we did the same with one whole generation growing up under a fully even partially ‘westernized’ Iraq, those kids would have grown into adults wanting no part of Pighammed and Co. and would then have had a fighting chance to make something of it.

Instead, we killed Saddam, let them choose worse as a PC gesture, started the “Islamic Spring” and just don’t get why it all went to hell.

Brilliant....

To our man and women killed and maimed, along with their families...not that it matters much....but I’m sorry.


19 posted on 03/11/2012 12:53:14 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: FatherofFive
"And the thugs have a religion behind them."

And the thugs have a religion murderous political system behind them.

There, fixed it.

20 posted on 03/11/2012 12:58:07 PM PDT by carriage_hill (I'll "vote for an orange juice can", over Barry Obummer and another 4yrs, anyday!)
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To: autumnraine

They’re HIS PEOPLE.


21 posted on 03/11/2012 1:00:13 PM PDT by carriage_hill (I'll "vote for an orange juice can", over Barry Obummer and another 4yrs, anyday!)
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To: Norm Lenhart
not that it matters much....but I’m sorry.

Ah, but it does matter. Sure this is an "anonymous" forum. But I have a suspicion that what you say here is what you say to people in your real world daily life. And I would bet there are plenty of out there and people who read this forum who will say to themselves "Thank you Norm". Not that I am speaking for them. Just speaking for me.

22 posted on 03/11/2012 1:03:26 PM PDT by bigheadfred
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To: bigheadfred

My daughter served in Iraq. Willingly. Gate duty while in-country. Made it back whole. I wish they all had. I supported the war thinking it was going to be that. A war, and one that would be for a reason. Instead, it has become Vietnam 2 or worse.

I genuinely do regret that support more every day. Because our Cowards in office have no courage of conviction, no sense of right and wrong and no regard for the lives they wasted there. And I mistakenly supported that.

I AM sorry.


23 posted on 03/11/2012 1:18:41 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: tobyhill
Islam is a gutter religion and we should just nuke the major mooselimb countries and turn them into glass {start with afgans, iran, pakistan and if they object too much, do the saudis.

Give Jordan, Syria and Lebanon to the Jews as well as control of the Suez canal.

Don't nuke egypt, but use moabs and drones one them.

Ax iraq and turkey if they want glass instead of sand, and tell both china and russia to piss off.

Also, inform china that we are cancelling our debt, and if they object, start checking their coast line for our boomers {oh, they can't find them. too bad}.

I know I'm taking a very peace loving and maybe even pussy stance, but it is Sunday and I did Mass, so I'm feeling very mellow today.

24 posted on 03/11/2012 1:22:06 PM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorists savages.)
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To: Norm Lenhart
Japan and Germany were not allowed to just keep on keepin’ on. They did what we ‘let’ them do. If we did the same with one whole generation growing up under a fully even partially ‘westernized’ Iraq, those kids would have grown into adults wanting no part of Pighammed and Co. and would then have had a fighting chance to make something of it.

The reason they knuckled under was because we killed millions of their fighting men and millions of their civilians. Weirdly enough, our victory over the Taliban was too quick - too antiseptic. Most of the Pashtuns' fighting age males are still alive. The lesson of the Afghan campaign is that you haven't defeated the enemy until you have cowed them into submission - by killing a significant percentage of their fighters. For a country the size of Afghanistan that number is at least 500K. We've done less than 100K. What Bush needed to hammer home, in the initial euphoria of the Taliban's initial defeats, was that guerrilla war is the type of war where casualties are relatively light, but they go on for a long time, because this type of war helps preserve the enemy's fighting strength. The reason the Germans and the Japanese did not have the option of a guerrilla war was because their manpower was exhausted, and their civilians had been pushed to the brink in terms of family members and friends killed in combat and were on the brink of starvation. Japan and Germany lost 5% and 10% of their populations in WW2. The equivalent Afghan casualty count would be 1.5m or 3m dead.

25 posted on 03/11/2012 1:22:20 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Pining_4_TX
deposing Saddam was a huge mistake

You better believe it was.

The two biggest counterweights to radical Islam were the Shah of Iran and Saddam Hussein.

Carter got rid of the Shah, Bush II got rid of Saddam. Idiotic.

26 posted on 03/11/2012 1:25:55 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I carrying this lantern? you ask. I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: USS Alaska

A little believin’ and you go all soft on us.....damn.... ;)


27 posted on 03/11/2012 1:26:01 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: Zhang Fei

I guess it goes back to the pussification of the American male. Those elected, even many who served prior, forgot what war really is and how to fight it. Instead, they bought into PC ‘clean’ warfare. How the hell do you fight a war when enemy casualties are a greater concern than your own? As in being worried about killing too many people?

Pussified idiots. Add every one of our war dead to the 9/11 count of the people PC has killed.


28 posted on 03/11/2012 1:30:54 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: Norm Lenhart
Stop it.

I can accept this I genuinely do regret

I reserve I AM sorry for those truly sorry sons of beeotches in the White Hut, and other places...

And thank your daughter for her service, from me.

I think most people would agree that there is an inherent feeling in people to place a trust in their leaders to protect and defend their best interests. It isn't those people who fail(ed) when those leaders prove otherwise.

29 posted on 03/11/2012 1:53:20 PM PDT by bigheadfred
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To: Norm Lenhart

And just so you know, Sgt. Evan Vela is my nephew. If you have any interest you can search FR with the keyword “vela”.


30 posted on 03/11/2012 1:56:00 PM PDT by bigheadfred
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To: bigheadfred

I will, and I’ll relay your message.

Thank you.


31 posted on 03/11/2012 2:08:37 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: tobyhill

Trying to civilize Muslims is like trying to teach a cat not to kill birds. What can you do about a society that kills its own youth?


32 posted on 03/11/2012 2:55:19 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2
Trying to civilize Muslims is like trying to teach a cat not to kill birds.
I think it's more like trying to teach flies not to eat sh*t.
33 posted on 03/11/2012 2:57:01 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: tobyhill

I for one would be interested in what the Koran says about men wearing their pants down around their thighs.


34 posted on 03/11/2012 5:01:36 PM PDT by HIDEK6
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To: samtheman

Agreed


35 posted on 03/11/2012 6:19:26 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Norm Lenhart

I was feeling so mellow I thought I was a liberal, had a couple of Johnny Walkers and a nap and now I’m back to my old mean self. Just go with my tag line, no mercy.


36 posted on 03/11/2012 9:00:39 PM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorists savages.)
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To: USS Alaska

Thank god...must be a hell of a preacher you got there. Keep him away from any Repub candidates until the 2nd week of Nov. ;)


37 posted on 03/11/2012 9:38:37 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks tobyhill.
Militants in Shi'ite neighborhoods where the stonings have taken place circulated lists on Saturday naming more youths targeted to be killed if they do not change the way they dress.

38 posted on 03/18/2012 10:57:17 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him)
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To: tobyhill; Pining_4_TX
"Bush didn't just invade Iraq to depose of Saddam even though that was the pretext, it WAS to set up permanent bases there to counter any Iranian threats, even if the Shiites controlled Iraq.

Why counter Iranian threats, when the mullahs' regime could've been and still can be completely removed ? Isn't & wasn't that a better & more logical way?

I don't recall Iran being a threat to any country, at least not for 50 yrs before the mullahs (Khomeinist) regime came to power in 1979.

39 posted on 03/18/2012 3:20:40 PM PDT by odds
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To: Norm Lenhart
Instead, we killed Saddam, let them choose worse as a PC gesture, started the “Islamic Spring” and just don’t get why it all went to hell.

I think you make excellent points. Would add that this "Islamic Spring" didn't start in 2010-2011. It started in 1979 with Khomeini and Iran. Carter and Brzezinski were in charge.

40 posted on 03/19/2012 7:01:09 PM PDT by odds
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To: Zhang Fei
Weirdly enough, our victory over the Taliban was too quick - too antiseptic. Most of the Pashtuns' fighting age males are still alive. The lesson of the Afghan campaign is that you haven't defeated the enemy until you have cowed them into submission - by killing a significant percentage of their fighters….

I agree with the 2nd part of your above comment – we haven’t defeated the Taliban, at all. We simply managed to overthrow their ‘official’ rule, they dispersed, and largely moved to Pakistan only to re-group.

The Taliban (Islamic) ideology was conceived in Pakistan during the Soviet invasion in the 1980s. It was taught to them in mosques and madrassas in Pakistan at the time. They were trained & equipped with guns by us (remember Brzezinski and his doctrine of Islamic Green Belt around communist/socialist USSR). Moreover, they were funded by the Saudis (our allies), and further aided by Pakistan’s ISI (another one of our allies). What we have witnessed since 2001 has been, largely, our own doing. Since 2001, we’ve been fighting, ineffectively, a monster that we created some 25 yrs earlier!

I can’t see a valid comparison with Germany or Japan of WWII. Neither culturally, nor ideologically, nor militarily. The Nazis and the Japs never fought a guerilla type war. For one thing, the Taliban doesn’t wear a uniform. Secondly, the ideology it espouses (Islam) is much more potent, more tenacious , more resilient & more deadly than Nazism, Communism, Socialism combined. It fights a guerrilla type war because that’s the only way it can exist & possibly win over a long period of time versus our military might. We in the West don’t fight a guerrilla type war. That is not our strength.

I firmly believe that if we want to effectively fight the Taliban, we must fight or at least not feed the ideology i.e. ISLAM itself. Killing them or fighting them military is not enough. Not only referring to the Taliban, but also when it comes to the average Ali, Mohammad, etc… in Afghanistan - that’s something we haven’t done. In fact, we have helped grow… not only in the moslem world, but also in the West!!

41 posted on 03/19/2012 7:02:32 PM PDT by odds
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To: odds

True that fighting ‘their’ style of warfare isn’t what we are best at. But then again, (if one assumed a WW2 style military leadership) we don’t have to be. Our might could level the place without nuclear weapons. The problem is that for a long time now, we have lacked the will to employ that might to the best of it’s capability.

An unfettered Patton in charge of today’s military would end all but the faintest remnants of terrorism in a matter od months. The only terrorists remaining would be so marginalized, and hunted, that there effectiveness would be about zero. Granted, one could always get lucky, but the fear as one poster on FR said of ‘fire from the sky’ and white skinned demons’ would be so great that only the most fanatical would attempt it...and they are usually the stupidest of the lot, adding the odds in our favor.

But we are stuck with cowards; and those who aren’t are hamstrung by those who are. And the public expect war in which no one is hurt or killed thanks to decades of liberal propaganda. How one gets to a mindset where hundreds of thousands of soldiers shoot, bombs explode and so forth without actual death entering the picture, eludes me, but that seems to be the way modern America thinks.


42 posted on 03/19/2012 7:25:22 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: Norm Lenhart
Our might could level the place without nuclear weapons.

Yes, that's another way to cleanse the system.

Personally, I would not have any problems w/ that approach when it comes to those "Taliban-like" grps, regime & individuals who are plenty in places like Iran as well.

But, I still think that we have to uproot Islamic ideology completely, even if gradually.

As for the media and liberals, well, we just have to manage them as well as (if not better) than they have managed a lot of ordinary folks around the globe so far..

43 posted on 03/19/2012 7:59:52 PM PDT by odds
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To: odds

I totally agree. Islam as an ideology must be erased for any permanent success to happen. We did it in Japan and we did it in Germany. The number of Nazis or ‘Imperialists’ is so small as to be almost non-existant. In another 50 years, they will both ‘history’.

With muslims, it will be MUCH harder going. You would have to raise a number of generations westernized and instil in them a lifetime of the evils of Islam - then install them in power. As for the general muslim population, you’d have to outlaw it under penalty of death - then carry it out, while simultaneously giving them an in-place ‘westernizing’.

Which of course is impossible as long as liberals exist. So that leaves few options indeed.


44 posted on 03/19/2012 8:17:28 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: odds

When Carter cowered in the face of the hostage crisis, it definitely was a green light for the rest. Granted, there were other incidents prior, but that one was indeed the beginning.

If Reagan would have had a crystal ball, I think he would have made a number of different choices. But he didn’t. Carter on the other hand, would have done even more to get the ball rolling.


45 posted on 03/19/2012 8:32:50 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: odds

Just a side note to my Japan statement. While I don’t doubt the spirit of the Samurai lives on there, it’s well controlled by the people themselves. I’m no expert of course, but when I look at the pre and post WW2 culture, it does not even seem like the same people. They adopted and enjoy many aspects of that era’s American culture - for better and worse - that NEVER could have existed before. To this day the infamous ‘schoolgirl uniform’ based on American sailor uniforms is still a part of their culture. They celebrate Christmas in a primarily Buddhist/Shinto country with no problem. They embrace many aspects of today’s American culture and adopt it with a twist. They were forced into a different way, took it, made it their own and have been going gangbusters every since.

Muslims on the other hand seem to lack any desire to do anything but pray to a moon god and a dead pedophile. No matter how many times they get pounded by whatever culture, they spring right back - to the 7th century and go no further.


46 posted on 03/19/2012 8:43:28 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: odds

You wrote:


I can’t see a valid comparison with Germany or Japan of WWII. Neither culturally, nor ideologically, nor militarily. The Nazis and the Japs never fought a guerilla type war. For one thing, the Taliban doesn’t wear a uniform. Secondly, the ideology it espouses (Islam) is much more potent, more tenacious , more resilient & more deadly than Nazism, Communism, Socialism combined. It fights a guerrilla type war because that’s the only way it can exist & possibly win over a long period of time versus our military might. We in the West don’t fight a guerrilla type war. That is not our strength.

I firmly believe that if we want to effectively fight the Taliban, we must fight or at least not feed the ideology i.e. ISLAM itself. Killing them or fighting them military is not enough. Not only referring to the Taliban, but also when it comes to the average Ali, Mohammad, etc… in Afghanistan - that’s something we haven’t done. In fact, we have helped grow… not only in the moslem world, but also in the West!!


We fought a several hundred year guerrilla war with a large assortment of Indian tribes. We fought it to the finish because it was fought over who would own the land.

Muslim warriors aren’t particularly tenacious. Iran quit the war with Iraq after less than a million dead. Iran’s population is 80m. Germany lost 8m out of the same population base, quitting only foreign troops were in a position to annihilate the German people to the last man, woman and child. The Japanese, while less stoic than the Germans, lost about 4m out of 70m before crying uncle. The reason they did not resort to guerrilla war was because they were out of cannon fodder - the 18-28 age bracket of young ‘uns who think they will live forever was severely depleted.

No way the Muslim world can take more punishment. Like I said, Muslims aren’t tougher - we’re just too squeamish to inflict the kinds of punishments for post-surrender hostilities that we dealt out during the conflict in the Philippines-American War - heck during the Civil War. Heard of the burning of Atlanta? Here’s a passage describing what went on in the Philippine Islands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War#Guerrilla_war_phase


For most of 1899, the revolutionary leadership had viewed guerrilla warfare strategically only as a tactical option of final recourse, not as a means of operation which better suited their disadvantaged situation. On November 13, 1900, Emilio Aguinaldo decreed that guerrilla war would henceforth be the strategy.[62] This made American occupation of the Philippine archipelago all the more difficult over the next few years. In fact, during just the first four months of the guerrilla war, the Americans had nearly 500 casualties.[63] The Philippine Army began staging bloody ambushes and raids, such as the guerrilla victories at Paye, Catubig, Makahambus, Pulang Lupa, Balangiga and Mabitac. At first, it even seemed as if the Filipinos would fight the Americans to a stalemate and force them to withdraw. This was even considered by President McKinley at the beginning of the phase.

The shift to guerrilla warfare drove the US Army to a “total-war” doctrine. Civilians were given identification and forced into concentration camps with a publicly announced deadline after which all persons found outside of camps without identification would be shot on sight. Thousands of civilians died in these camps due to poor conditions. [64]

Atrocities were committed on both sides.[86] United States attacks into the countryside often included scorched earth campaigns[71] in which entire villages were burned and destroyed, the use of torture (water cure[87]) and the concentration of civilians into “protected zones”.[88] In November 1901, the Manila correspondent of the Philadelphia Ledger reported:”The present war is no bloodless, opera bouffe engagement; our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of ten up, the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog....”[89]
[edit] American soldiers’ letters and response

Throughout the entire war American soldiers would write home about the horrors and atrocities which the United States committed in the Philippines. In these letters they would criticize General Otis and the U.S. military; when these letters reached anti-imperialist editors they became national news and forced the War Department to look into their truthfulness. Two of the letters went as follows:

A New York-born soldier: “The town of Titatia [sic] was surrendered to us a few days ago, and two companies occupy the same. Last night one of our boys was found shot and his stomach cut open. Immediately orders were received from General Wheaton to burn the town and kill every native in sight; which was done to a finish. About 1,000 men, women and children were reported killed. I am probably growing hard-hearted, for I am in my glory when I can sight my gun on some dark skin and pull the trigger (Benevolent Assimilation, p. 88).”[90]
Corporal Sam Gillis: “We make everyone get into his house by seven p.m., and we only tell a man once. If he refuses we shoot him. We killed over 300 natives the first night. They tried to set the town on fire. If they fire a shot from the house we burn the house down and every house near it, and shoot the natives, so they are pretty quiet in town now.”[90]

However, General Otis’s investigation of the content of these letters consisted of sending a copy of them to the author’s superior and having him force the soldier/author to write a retraction. Then, when a soldier refused to do so, as Private Charles Brenner of the Kansas regiment did, he was, remarkably, court-martialed. In the case of Private Brenner, the charge was “for writing and conniving at the publication of an article which…contains willful [sic] falsehoods concerning himself and a false charge against Captain Bishop.”[49] This is not to say that all American soldiers’ letters home explained the atrocities committed by the U.S. so as to bring about the American public’s and General Otis’s displeasure. Many portrayed U.S. actions as the result of Filipino “insurgent” provocation and thus entirely justified. One such letter home was written by Private Hermann Dittner and was titled “the trouble with the nigs”. It went as follows:

“It then became apparent that a fight was imminent. So on February 3 we posted our sentry at the same old place. The insurgents kicked but without avail. Our colonel was down there and an insurgent called him a s – n – -b – h. Of course this made Stotsenburg mad and he gave orders to arrest the lieutenant as soon as they could catch him.”[91]



47 posted on 03/19/2012 8:52:06 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Norm Lenhart
With muslims, it will be MUCH harder going. You would have to raise a number of generations westernized and instil in them a lifetime of the evils of Islam - then install them in power......

Not necessarily harder, but depends on which moslems in which country. In Iran for example, they've had 1st hand experience with Islam for the past 33 yrs. Most hate their experience, especially the younger generations. The ones 45+ yrs, I'm told are mostly depressed along with many younger ones.

You know, when Iran was invaded by Arab-moslems centuries ago, they took a cruel approach with Zoroastrian Iranians (and other religious communities in Iran). In addition to killing a lot of them, they converted, and indoctrinated them as well, often through various forms of pressure.

The moslem-arabs destroyed books about a variety of subjects. Only the koran was acceptable to read. They cut off tongues of those people who spoke their native Persian language, they burned the Zoroastrian priests in particular, often in pyre of books, and so forth...

The point is that they re-programed the people in Iran to accept Islam (as as the mullahs' regime has tried to do in the past 3 decades, and the Soviet 'revolutionaries' did to the white Russians after the Bolshevik revolution)... not suggesting that we could or should do or be as brutal, but you understand my point that the moslem-arabs achieved their goal of changing the culture or trying to. In fact, I think the reason they weren't and still their descendants, in the form of the Mullahs et al in Iran, have not been totally successful is because you can't simply win with cruelty or brutality. Re-education is part of the equation, which brings me to your other point below.

Which of course is impossible as long as liberals exist. So that leaves few options indeed.

An Iranian during the latter parts of the Shah's era told my father something akin to: "if you want a good capitalist, send them to the Soviet Union, not the US. Because in the USSR they would experience communism and its rotten fruits firsthand, but in the US they (liberals) simply can not appreciate the values of freedom, capitalism, democracy, and so on... they are living the good life and it is simply a theory that they have to work against and dispute out of ideology, not out of firsthand experience..

I think a lot of problems in the US stem from the education system and its ideological inclinations. It is very idealistic & theoretical, rather than realistic and practical, I mean that in every sense of the words.

48 posted on 03/19/2012 8:57:47 PM PDT by odds
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To: Zhang Fei

We fought a several hundred year guerrilla war with a large assortment of Indian tribes. We fought it to the finish because it was fought over who would own the land.

The 1800s, and fighting to 'own the land' aside, can you give me examples of the US during and post-WW2 fighting a major & prolonged guerrilla warfare and winning? In modern times, on foreign soil, guerrilla warfare is not a US strength. That was my point. Maybe am wrong...

Iran quit the war with Iraq after less than a million dead. Iran’s population is 80m.

I know people, Iranians who were in Iran and some who fought during Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s, a few are still alive and are not moslems, but are Iranians. The population of Iran in 1980 was 35 million, not 80 million.

Saddam initiated the attack on Iran in September 1980 when he attacked Khuzestan province of Iran, which borders Iraq. Saddam offered truce in 1982. Khomeini refused and prolonged the war by 6 yrs. That is despite the fact that almost ALL Arab countries were supporting Iraq, at least morally & politically, and were on Iraq's side. And that Iraq had significant military support and weapons from certain western countries, including the US.

The US also sold weapons to Iran, as did Israel. Of course, it was during the same Iran-Iraq war that Israel bombed Osirak nuclear site in Iraq. Thereby, if not directly intended, indirectly helping the mullahs regime in Iran.

Now, Khomeini simply prolonged the war with Iraq to help consolidate his revolution in Iran. You know, a foreign enemy comes in handy. At the end, Saddam withdrew his troops from Iranian territories. The war ended not as Iraqi victory, but as a draw. -- Iran-Iraq war -- I know it is wikipedia, but the article there is well referenced to other sources.

Muslim warriors aren’t particularly tenacious.

Not saying that moslems are particularly tenacious, even if they've successfully fought wars for the last 1400 yrs (Gates of Vienna and push back from there and eventually Spain aside), conquered all of the ME, North Africa, and spread all the way to even parts of Southeast Asia, such as Malaysia, Indonesia, parts of India and even certain Eastern European countries such as Albania, etc.. and in the last 4 decades made inroads into Western countries.

Whether moslems are tougher or not was not my point. My point was that Islam is a more potent, tenacious and resilient ideology than Nazism, Communism & Socialism combined. The other point was that the Taliban (Islamics) employ guerrilla warfare because it has much more of a chance of winning against the US military might. If as you say the reason is because the US is too squeamish, then the end-result is still the same, i.e. what we've seen in Afghanistan so far.

49 posted on 03/19/2012 9:47:59 PM PDT by odds
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To: Norm Lenhart

Just read this post of yours. Yes, absolutely, you’re on the mark and very astute observation/analysis.

A Japanese who has been a friend for some 20 yrs, originally from Osaka, often says the same about Japan. I visited her family with her in Japan several yrs ago. In my assessment, the Japanese do cleverly mix aspects of American culture with their own traditions. More so among younger generations.

A reason is that the US dominated the war & won, very clearly. The Japs were subdued & in a way humiliated. But, similar to moslems they admire strength (power) and those who have it and can prove it. The Japs in turn, mostly, saw the results of their aggression and accepted their mistakes. Since then most of them have moved on. They even have a tradition of annually apologizing for the war they started. Furthermore, since WW2 and their defeat they’ve had significant direct help from America to rebuild and to ‘westernize’ their society and even economically. Frankly, Iran under the Shah was like Japan today and could’ve been even more so had he been allowed to continue his reign.

The same history, rebuilding, series of events, and, more importantly, Stability (politically, socially, economically) over the decades, do not apply to most moslem countries.

Also, I haven’t heard of many or in fact any Shinto/Buddhist ‘priests’ preaching against Westernization or Americanization. I guess, they don’t have the so-called catalysts who would incite anti-American or anti-Western sentiments. Nor have they had an Shinto/Buddhist gov’t, say, unlike Iran since 1979.

Islamic ideology is very tenacious, resilient & active, not passive (unlike Buddhism). It has a very long history of being bloodthirsty, right up to present day. Additionally, as I said in previous posts, I believe, unlike the case with Japan, over the decades, the West, especially the US has not discouraged Islam itself, but in fact has fed & encouraged it, in the moslem world as well in the West.


50 posted on 03/20/2012 12:24:43 AM PDT by odds
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