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Citizen Dave: Idea of the Week ... Start a Civil War
freelibertywriters.com ^ | 16 March, 2012 | Bruce Krafft

Posted on 03/18/2012 6:33:08 AM PDT by marktwain

Dave Cieslewicz is sick and tired of gun violence. So to put an end to the violence he proposes to set off a civil war. Oh, no doubt he doesn't think of it that way, but that is because he is projecting his spinelessness and lack of principles onto gun owners.

He starts out by bringing up the three school shootings in the past month, provides the obligatory Columbine bloody shirt wave before dancing in the blood of the Gabriel Giffords shooting and finishes with the father who shot his daughter's laptop. He then drags out firearm murder comparisons (not rates mind you, just the raw numbers) but declines to address the disparity in non-firearm homicide rates. He also completely ignores the 1.4 million or so defensive gun uses each year; indeed given his statements further on it is doubtful that he even believes there are any much less that over 25,000 lives are saved annually in DGUs.

Of course he blames the Ee-vil Gun Lobby® and spineless politicians for this whole state of affairs, bemoaning the lack of even the smallest and most responsible of gun control measures. His plan of action?

"The answer is not more silence and even more modest proposals. The answer is not to make nice with the radicals in the NRA. The answer, for those of us who want to end the gun carnage, is to make bold proposals that pull the debate back in our direction.

My bold proposal is to simply ban the manufacture, sale and possession of all handguns and automatic weapons everywhere in America. There is just no reason for the existence of these weapons of mass destruction. Their only real purpose is to kill people, and target practice is hardly a good enough reason to have all of this destructive deadly force around. They should be banned."

I guess Dave is unaware of the fact that under the current (mis)interpretation of the (illegally passed) law, manufacture and sale to 'civilians' of new full auto weapons are effectively banned. He also doesn't address police officers with their pistols and "patrol rifles", but none of that is particularly important. What is important is that he seems to be operating under the misapprehension that all gunnies are as weak and cowardly as he is; the mistaken idea that when ordered to we will peacefully climb into the cattle cars that is march into the gas chambers I mean, turn in our guns. No, Dave, when called to turn in our handguns many of us will, instead, break out our rifles.

I suppose a little number crunching is in order. According to a Gallup poll released in October of 2011, 34% of Americans own a gun and according to Google, in July of 2011 the U.S. population stood at 311,591,900. This means that there are 105,941,246 people who personally own guns (as opposed to just having guns in the household). So Dave, let's say that 3% of those people are the cold dead hands types. After all, 3% is the number of colonists who fought against the British in the Revolution (it's also the number who fought for the British). So 3% of 105+ million is 3,178,237. So call it 3 million "gun nuts".

3 million people who are willing to die for their principles; which also means 3 million people who are willing to kill for their principles.

3 million people who own guns and know how to shoot them.

3 million people, many of whom already own camouflage clothing and can drop a deer at 500 yards.

3 million people who are black, white, Asian and Hispanic. 3 million men and women, white collar professionals and blue collar grunts.

3 million people spread out across virtually every geographic and demographic boundary.

3 million people who look like everyone else.

Now, according to GunPolicy.org, the U.S. has 897,400 law enforcement firearms and according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Police and detectives held about 883,600 jobs in 2008. About 79 percent were employed by local governments. State police agencies employed about 11 percent. Various Federal agencies employ police and detectives.

So 885,000 is probably a good round number that's pretty close to reality. Almost 700,000 of those work for local departments, 97,000 are state troopers of some color or stripe and the remaining 88,000 or so work for the FedGov.

Now lemme ask you something Dave; do any of your children work in Law Enforcement? How about the children of all of your liberal friends? No? Well how about the kids of your gun-toting conservative friends? See where I'm going with this?

So, when the politicians tell the cops on the streets to go door to door and take peoples' guns, how many do you think will obey? How many street cops are going to be willing to go to Uncle Frank's house and order him to turn over his pistols?

But even supposing that 100% of LEOs are willing to go along (and given the demographics of police departments plus the fact that this is one of the ten orders Oath Keepers will not follow, you ain't gonna get 100%); even with 100% participation your confiscators will be outnumbered 3.5 to 1. See what I mean about a bloody civil war? Because it is entirely possible that people will turn over (some of) their pistols one day, and the next night be out in a field with their ghillie suit and deer rifle waiting for the officer who visited them to get off shift.

Or be in an empty warehouse with a couple of friends waiting for the police to respond to a 9-1-1 call across the street.

Or, remembering Bill Clinton's 1999 Rules of Engagement in Serbia[1], outside a newspaper or TV station office.

Or outside the local office of their anti-gun Congress-critter.

Or outside the mayor's gala fundraiser.

As Mike Vanderboegh asks:

"They will fight to the last ATF agent or to the last oath-breaking soldier. Will they fight to the first senior bureaucrat, the second Congressman, the third newspaper editor, the fourth Senator, the fifth White House aide? Can they stand Bill Clinton’s rules of engagement?"

Well "Citizen Dave", you're willing to put other peoples' lives on the line for your gun-banning desires, are you willing to stake you own life?

[1] Stating that the political leaders, bureaucrats, and media support structure of the enemy's war effort were legitimate targets of war..


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: ban; banglist; cieslewicz; citizendave; gun; madison
This article is in response to Madison Wisconsin Mayor Dave Cieslewicz' article. The link should be below.
1 posted on 03/18/2012 6:33:15 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Here is the link to Citizen Dave’s article:

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=36189

Here is the link to the freerepublic discussion of the article:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2858869/posts


2 posted on 03/18/2012 6:35:54 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

The chair is against the wall.


3 posted on 03/18/2012 6:42:17 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy ("And the public gets what the public wants" -- The Jam)
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To: marktwain

Violence is violence. Its the tool you use to do violence. Taking away the gun will not stop the violence. Will you ban knives, baseball bats, hammers and car antennas next? The Columbine killers tried to make use of a twenty pound propane bottle as a bomb. Will you ban propane bottles? DUH!!!!!!


4 posted on 03/18/2012 6:45:08 AM PDT by South Dakota (shut up and drill)
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To: marktwain
Obama pal, Father 'Flakey' wants toy guns banned. Fr. Michael Pfleger protests toy guns in Easter baskets.

(WGN-TV)

Chicago WGN TV

Report: Walgreens pulls Easter baskets with toy guns from stores

2:01 PM CDT, March 16, 2012

The effort to get toy guns out of Easter baskets has paid off for Fr. Michael Pfleger of St. Sabina’s Catholic Church.

The Chicago Sun-Times reports many Chicago area Walgreens stores have pulled the baskets with plastic water guns or Nerf dart shooters off their shelves.

Pfleger also sent a letter to Kmart asking stores to stop selling the baskets. The retailer says the baskets will not be removed this year, but toy guns will be excluded in the future.

Pfleger says toy guns are no longer appropriate for a generation plagued by rampant gun violence.

5 posted on 03/18/2012 6:55:12 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: South Dakota

So true.

When I was in Australia, I was amazed at how many people were beaten to death with cricket bats, golf clubs and chairs — Australia has pretty strict gun control, so it’s less common to hear about people getting shot. But the violence does not seem to be diminished.


6 posted on 03/18/2012 6:56:00 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy ("And the public gets what the public wants" -- The Jam)
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To: ClearCase_guy

I’d bet a good portion of Australia’s violence like here may just be alcohol related??


7 posted on 03/18/2012 7:22:33 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO) Hey Mitt, F-you too pal)
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To: ClearCase_guy; Mrs. B.S. Roberts

There are dozens of varied statistics published each and every year regarding gun violence. Holdups, home invasions, drive by shootings, drunken rages, betrayed spouses, gang retaliation and so on.
Each year I note there is a SINGLE statistic never, ever mentioned.
How many crimes and/or murders were committed by trained, legal, licensed law abiding GUN OWNERS?


8 posted on 03/18/2012 7:33:48 AM PDT by CaptainAmiigaf ( NY Times: We print the news as it fits our views.)
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To: marktwain
"The answer is not more silence and even more modest proposals. The answer is not to make nice with the radicals in the NRA.

Oh, I see... His um reasoned (?) response to the "radicals" in the NRA is his own radical proposal? Hypocrisy expressed entirely in one statement. Nice, don't even have to read two sentences by him to see him for what he is. But it gets better.

The answer, for those of us who want to end the gun carnage, is to make bold proposals that pull the debate back in our direction.

Perhaps the most honest thing he wrote. Not completely honest, but the most honest thing. He, and fascists like him, don't give a rat's backside about the "carnage" they perceive (or want you to perceive) is happening. That's the lie part of this statement. However, they do very desperately want to control the terms and bounds of the debate. That was a rare bit of honesty seeping through. However, we cannot let the fascists control the debate. We have to keep truth and perspective out there.

My bold proposal is to simply ban the manufacture, sale and possession of all handguns and automatic weapons everywhere in America. There is just no reason for the existence of these weapons of mass destruction.

Bold? Well, that's one word for it. I might go with a phrase like "laughably stupid" or maybe "anti-freedom fascist" or "pipe dream"... Here he uses still more wild hyperbole with "weapons of mass destruction." Does he know the difference between say a chemical warhead filled with a persistent nerve agent and a Glock with a 15 round magazine? Even if he does, I know he doesn't care - all he wants is to invoke an emotional, fearful response - don't let little things like truth, facts, nor accuracy get in the way.

Their only real purpose is to kill people, and target practice is hardly a good enough reason to have all of this destructive deadly force around. They should be banned."

The fallacy of these statements is breathtakingly complete. If he sees their only purpose as to kill people, he is a remarkably uninformed, unimaginative, and fearful person. If he thinks we, anyone, needs to justify any of our freedoms and liberties with a "good enough reason" then he is embarrassingly ignorant to the principles upon which America was founded. If he thinks his thin, ill-considered justifications for his fascist desire for control over his fellow man will fly, he is sadly mistaken.

If we ever needed a reason to keep and bear arms (and we don't need a reason for an inalienable right) it is right here on the page - to protect ourselves, our freedoms, and our liberties from the likes of this fascist.

9 posted on 03/18/2012 7:46:19 AM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obama now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: marktwain
According to DOJ crime statistics, guns are used 2.5-million times per year to prevent robberies, rapes, murders, carjackings, home-invasions, etc., 99% of the time without a shot being fired.

GunFacts.info

My guess is that Dave is one of Eric Holder's people, who believe that crime is a legitimate career path, and armed victims are an OSHA violation.


10 posted on 03/18/2012 7:58:59 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: marktwain

Democrats don’t have any problem with guns as long as they get to decide who the guns are pointed at.


11 posted on 03/18/2012 8:14:58 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: ClearCase_guy

John has a long mustache.


12 posted on 03/18/2012 8:51:01 AM PDT by Noumenon ("I tell you, gentlemen, we have a problem on our hands." Col. Nicholson-The Bridge on the River Qwai)
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To: marktwain
3 million people, many of whom already own camouflage clothing and can drop a deer at 500 yards.

An Appleseeder Rifleman can take heads at 500 yards. Over iron sights. There are more of us every day.

13 posted on 03/18/2012 8:53:45 AM PDT by Noumenon ("I tell you, gentlemen, we have a problem on our hands." Col. Nicholson-The Bridge on the River Qwai)
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To: Noumenon
At 65 years old, I can still drop your butt in the dirt, iron sights, with my match conditioned M1 Garand. Getting whacked with a 168-grain Sierra Match King is a life changing experience.
14 posted on 03/18/2012 9:15:48 AM PDT by MasterGunner01 (11)
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To: MasterGunner01

Yes, I’m 61 and have a great deal of confidence in my skills with my own NM Garand. Appleseed events keep those skills up.

Bought a substantial amount of Lake City match grade and black tip 30.06 many years ago. Been saving it for that now inevitable rainy day.


15 posted on 03/18/2012 9:24:00 AM PDT by Noumenon ("I tell you, gentlemen, we have a problem on our hands." Col. Nicholson-The Bridge on the River Qwai)
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To: marktwain
Of course he blames the Ee-vil Gun Lobby® and spineless politicians for this whole state of affairs, bemoaning the lack of even the smallest and most responsible of gun control measures. His plan of action?

What "lack" would that be?? IIRC there were at last count something like 20,000 laws regulating firearm manufacture, sale, and use in the US. If the "Ee-vil Gun Lobby®" and evil gunowners are working to block anti-rights legislation, they must not be very good at it, or else where did those 20,000 laws come from?

16 posted on 03/18/2012 9:33:08 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: MasterGunner01; Noumenon
I love my Garand. I got a NM trigger job, and had a fancy new walnut stock fitted. She's got a Danish VAR barrel that was unfired after rebuild and is a very sweet shooter.

battlerifles
17 posted on 03/18/2012 11:11:23 AM PDT by Tailback
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To: Noumenon

The chair is against the wall...


18 posted on 03/18/2012 11:16:46 AM PDT by Cacique500
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To: Tailback
One of my proudest possessions is a replica M1941 Sniper's that was built-up from a parts kit for a Springfield M1903A1 (that's the one with the full pistol grip stock).

I found a Unertl 12X target scope (original 8X scopes weren't available) and we mounted it on the M1903A1 that was getting the NM treatment. (M1941 rifles were built from NM rifles by Marine armorers at their Philadelphia Depot in WW2.) My gunsmith did the NM accurizing to the M1903A1, modified the handguard like the original, and made the mounting blocks. A local machine shop used electrostatic machining (EDM) to drill and tap the holes in the receiver ring for the rear mounting block due to the receiver's hardness.)

How does it shoot? The M1903A1 with iron sights is positively deadly. The 12X Unertl is fitted with the compensating spring that returns it to firing position after each shot and the scope is also dead-on target. The bottom line is that this replica M1941 Sniper's can hold its own with modern, purpose-built precision rifles.

Trivia: During WW2, Marine scout-snipers did not have sniper quality ammo. Instead, they used accuracy-selected lots of M2 armor-piercing (AP) ammunition. On Saipan, two scout-snipers were sent to rescue a Marine company pinned down by a bunch of machine gun nests on a ridge. The scout-snipers maneuvered to a position on a ridge about 1,100 yards away from the Japanese positions and where they could be easily identified. The machine guns were methodically chopping the pinned down Marines to ribbons.

The range was far longer than the sniper had ever shot with this M1941 and so he cranked-in his best guess as far as elevation went. The observer called the shot at 10 feet below the first bunker and four feet off to the side. The sniper adjusted and began walking his shots so that he started hitting by the fifth round. He wiped out the first machine gun nest and then moved to the next. Same thing. Then the next. Then the next. Soon the pinned down Marines began to understand that their tormentors were being killed by this scout-sniper team's deadly shooting. In the end, the living Japanese pulled out and the pinned down Marines cheered their saviors like specators whose team just won the Super Bowl.

19 posted on 03/18/2012 1:26:16 PM PDT by MasterGunner01 (11)
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To: marktwain
So 3% of 105+ million is 3,178,237. So call it 3 million "gun nuts".

3% of American gun owners constitutes a force almost 3X as large as the largest standing army in the world. China's PLA. 3% of us. This is why all the hand wringing about the FedMob disarming the American people is ridiculous. Sure, we should vigorously oppose gun control measures whenever they pop up. But disarming us all isn't going to happen.

20 posted on 03/18/2012 3:12:22 PM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: marktwain
"There is just no reason for the existence of these weapons of mass destruction. Their only real purpose is to kill people"

Amazing how much this petty tyrant sounds like the Republican "frontrunner."

Romney signs off on permanent assault weapons ban

"Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts," Romney said..."These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people."

21 posted on 03/18/2012 3:45:27 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (Without virtue, happiness cannot be. -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: TigersEye
But disarming us all isn't going to happen.

That is why disarming us has been a multigeneration effort by the left.

While England was not nearly as well armed as us, the left succeeded in effectively disarming the citizenry over a period of 80 years.

22 posted on 03/18/2012 6:13:23 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: MasterGunner01
I'm 65, and if we are going to do this better do it soon while I still can squeeze a trigger and still remember why I am squeezing nit.
23 posted on 03/18/2012 6:24:57 PM PDT by Big Mack (I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat VEGETABLES!)
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To: marktwain

True. But in the last twenty years the percentage of the population who own guns has risen, the percentage who support the 2nd Amendment has risen, loads of shall-issue CCL laws and Castle Doctrine laws have been passed and last but far from least the number of firearms in private hands has soared phenomenally. By all objective measures they are losing the war. Spectacularly!


24 posted on 03/18/2012 6:59:34 PM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: TigersEye
By all objective measures they are losing the war. Spectacularly!

You are correct. I believe that we started winning when enough new media came into existence to make a difference. The inflection point was likely when the Reagan administration did away with the "fairness" doctrine.

25 posted on 03/18/2012 7:39:18 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Billy "Bubba" Clinton should pat himself on the back too for putting so much energy into 2nd A. supporters. First by bungling Waco then the big one the AWB.

I had been to a couple of small gun shows before but the first big one was the last one before the AWB went into effect. It was in Albuquerque at the Lujan building on the State Fair grounds. It is a very big event center type building. My buddy and I got there about a half hour after the doors opened. The building was already full and the line stretched about a half city block at least four abreast.

He had been to gun shows there before and he was shocked. He figured it would be packed given the onset of the AWB but still... The line moved pretty quickly and we got to the door in about twenty minutes. The line behind us was now even longer than the one we found when we got there.

Inside the place was shoulder-to-shoulder throughout. Every description of person was there, from the gangbanger type to the stockbroker type, and they were buying. Fathers and sons with several rifles slung over their shoulders wheeling dollies stacked with ammunition to their cars. (I wish I had had a dolly for my case of 7.62X39) We were probably there for at least two hours and there was a steady stream coming in and a steady stream going out and they weren't going out empty handed.

What a truly inspiring day that was for both of us. To see hundreds upon hundreds of ordinary Americans essentially saying "FUBC, come and take them!" gave us the same kind of feeling that touring an aircraft carrier or seeing a Blue Angels show does. But 0baMao has totally eclipsed Slick Willy as American Gun Salesman of all time. Adding to that warm feeling is the fact that guns last a very long time.

26 posted on 03/18/2012 9:07:42 PM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: EternalVigilance

Romney is not pro 2A.

Frankly, I think he’s Soros’ guy this time around.


27 posted on 03/18/2012 9:15:57 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: combat_boots

Soros had all bets covered in ‘08. McCain is one of his most subservient lap dogs and I’m sure he has Hillary’s full cooperation too. It’s hard to lose when you own every horse in the race.


28 posted on 03/18/2012 9:27:01 PM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: marktwain
who is funding this guy? I guess if you get enough t-shirt wearing women and yell load enough you will get attention. But when they come to gather up the weapons of mass destruction I own they better come with a tank because I don't plan to just roll over and hand them in.
29 posted on 03/19/2012 2:36:46 AM PDT by Tubac414 (Just want to ride my Motorcycle)
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To: Tubac414

I believe he is mayor of Madison, Wisconsin.


30 posted on 03/19/2012 4:41:05 AM PDT by marktwain
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