Skip to comments.Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores across the nation
Posted on 03/25/2012 5:58:33 AM PDT by Scoutmaster
Suspicious test scores in roughly 200 school districts resemble those that entangled Atlanta in the biggest cheating scandal in American history, an investigation by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution shows.
The newspaper analyzed test results for 69,000 public schools and found high concentrations of suspect math or reading scores in school systems from coast to coast. The findings represent an unprecedented examination of the integrity of school testing.
The analysis doesnt prove cheating. But it reveals that test scores in hundreds of cities followed a pattern that, in Atlanta, indicated cheating in multiple schools.
A tainted and largely unpoliced universe of untrustworthy test results underlies bold changes in education policy, the findings show. The tougher teacher evaluations many states are rolling out, for instance, place more weight than ever on tests.
Perhaps more important, the analysis suggests a broad betrayal of schoolchildren across the nation. As Atlanta learned after cheating was uncovered in half its elementary and middle schools last year, falsified test results deny struggling students access to extra help to which they are entitled, and erode confidence in a vital public institution.
These findings are concerning, U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan said in an emailed statement after being briefed on the AJCs analysis.
(Excerpt) Read more at ajc.com ...
You should first note that the articles were not exculpatory for either Atlanta or Georgia. As the AJC noted, "[a]mong the nations largest school districts, [Georgia's] level of sustained questionable scores was unmatched."
Before reading the articles, you should perhaps first read the AJC's explanation of its methodology: Cheating our children: The AJCs methodology behind suspicious school test score. Remember that the using a minimum probability that a positive change in testing scores could have happened by chance only 1 out of 20 times is a minimum. In the case of the Atlanta schools, some schools had a large percentage of classrooms experiencing wrong-to-right erasures at up to 50 standard deviations from the norm, when seven standard deviations were likely to occur randomly fewer than one out of 350 billion times. Flagging an event at likely to occur randomly no more likely than one out of 20 times tells us where the line was drawn; it doesn't tell us how far over the probability line the event actually went.
Other stories from the investigation:
That's not all of the articles, but it's enough to get you started and the rest are linked from most of those articles. I'm just beginning to digest it myself, but wanted to share it now.
It appears that a substantial number of public school teachers and administrators nationwide were willing to change test scores under the pressure of threatened funding cuts.
The public school is BY FAR, the largest, most expensive, most subversive, and most destructive entitlement program in the country.
The public school is better understood as the government school collective.
It is silly to imagine that you can fix the public schools, because the very concept itself is communist.
Any child that comes out of the government school collective with their moral compass and common sense intact does so in spite of the government school indoctrination, not because of it.
If you want to win the culture war, have lots of children (see my tagline) and homeschool them or form your own school cooperative with your church or synagogue and like-minded friends and relatives.
Nobody loves your children more than you do.
Nobody can teach your children like you can.
Your children would love nothing better than to be taught by you, if you start doing so before they are corrupted by the government school collective.
It is hypocritical for you to submit your children to an authority with whom you fundamentally disagree. And your children will know it.
If you have children, make whatever sacrifices you must to get them out of the public schools.
DO NOT FEED THE BEAST!
Especially not with your own children.
What else would anyone expect when contempt for truth becomes a cultural foundation? The fundamental evil that is the Left—the embodiment of decadence—is mendacity. It has pervaded our nation, our world, our civilization. Its corrupting effects are devastating.
I haven't draw any conclusion about them. You'll find them across the U.S.
Obama claims he wants hope and change. My hope is that someday minorities will come to understand what hypocritical liberals are doing to them. For three generations they herd them into dysfunctional urban public schools keeping them ignorant, docile and easily manipulated. They are denied vouchers and choice which would of course empower them. Meanwhile the hypocritical liberals like Obama and Rahm Emmanuel “choose” to send their kids to good private schools. The liberals fund planned parenthood clinics in minority neighborhoods and actually kill them to keep their numbers down. They hire frontmen like Sharpton and Jackson to keep them in line. If 20 to 30% finally realize what the hypocritical liberals are doing , then there will be real change.
If you can not or do not homeschool, you can still educate your children. In some ways, with parental coaching if they survive the public school corrosion intact and clear-thinking, they will be resilient to fighting the liberal societal scum throughout their lives.
Great article. I notice many districts and states have their heads in the sand and try and explain away impossible results or ignore them.
There needs to be mass firings,removal of benefits. Everything on the table. This is after all theft. They are not doing their job but being paid for it. Stealing from the tax payers.
Iffen you don’t like the temperature, you just change the thermometer.
It started on a national level with clinton—remember the redifinition of the word “spin”?
We’ve gone downhhill as a nation from there.
WAAAAY DOWN. Faster, too.
The writers of the article aren’t upset at the cheating, they’re mad that students are tested.
There was a study a few years back. Kids from involved, Evangelical, church-going families who went to public or private school stopped practicing their faith in college at a rate of something over 85%.
Homeschooled kids from the same families? Kept their faith, something like 95% of them.
Maybe those other kids will come back after college. I know some do. But those odds are just terrible. Even if I didn’t think I could educate my daughter better than some ed school grads, or that the government schools are a cesspool, or that I love her quirky little three-year-old personality and the idea of her going and being conformed to everyone else around her didn’t sicken me, those odds mean she’ll enter an institutional school over my dead body. My husband’s dead body. The dead bodies of both our sets of parents and a very large number of aunts and uncles.
Make the sacrifices. It’s worth it. My parents did and I’m more appreciative every day.
> If you can not or do not homeschool
Then get them into a private school, church school, synagogue school, an existing school coop, or start a school coop of your own with like-minded relatives, friends and neighbors.
> There was a study a few years back. Kids from involved,
> Evangelical, church-going families who went to public or
> private school stopped practicing their faith in college at
> a rate of something over 85%.
> Homeschooled kids from the same families? Kept their faith,
> something like 95% of them.
If this is true, then alternative schools other than homeschooling don’t have much to offer to the Faithful.
If this is the case, only homeschooling will do.
Nobody can love your children like you.
Nobody knows your children better than you.
Nobody can reach your children like you.
Nobody can teach your children better than you.
But first and foremost, get your children *OUT* of the government school collective!
The “Lake Wobegon” phenomenon: all the children are above average.
It will not be surprising if standardized-test cheating is extremely widespread. The Federal regime requires the schools to show improving results, and yet they are unable to actually produce improved student performance. “What choice do they have” but to cheat?
A substantial proportion of the students simply can’t read and do arithmetic, and once they get past about 4th grade, it’s never fixed. Why can’t they read and do arithmetic? One can offer a lot of sociological theses, but a major reason is that they are simply not taught. But don’t “bash” the teachers: they’re heroes for spending all day with the children the parents would rather die than be around.
It’s like Lake Wobegon Greater School District, where all the children are above average.
The amount of **afterschooling** done by the parents is **never** measured in any government school in this nation! Therefore...ALL testing to determine the effectiveness of the school is BOGUS!!
Conclusion: ALL testing to determine the effectiveness of any government school is completely INVALID without measuring how much learning is due to the school and how much is entirely acquired **IN THE HOME** due to the hard work of the parents and child, and private tutoring!
I've been hammered here on Free Republic for using the word, “all”, so if any poster can prove me wrong, I would welcome the correction. Please provide links.
I conclude, after working with the youth of our church for 30 years, that if an institutionally schooled child can read and do basic arithmetic it is because the parents are doing **tons** of **afterschooling***!!! The parents and child are working just as hard IN THE HOME as my kids did homeschooling. I have never met an exception.
Yes. There are certainly bad teachers out there, but I put most of the blame on the students and their families. The Buffalo teachers' union [I'm no fan] is fighting the state now to exclude chronically truant students from teacher evaluations. It only seems right, but the state won't have any of it.
The teachers are being made to take the fall for the bureaucracy's unwillingness to confront the social issues of race and chaotic families.
Everyone has an opinion. However, it is a fact, not an opinion, that a large percentage of schools do not teach phonics and do not teach and require mastery of arithmetic skills. This results in myriads of students who can't read or do basic, much less advanced, math.
Classroom teachers really can't be blamed for this - the curriculum comes from a much higher level (and this is part of the problem, of course), where people like Bill Ayers are "educational theorists."
Please read my post #15.
It could be that government schools teach very little. It could be that 99% of what a child can and will learn is due to the **afterschooling** done by the parents. Sadly, this "afterschooling" has never been measured. It could be that we are spending up to a quarter of million dollars for a child to go to 13 or more years of government schooling and the **real** learning is due to the work done by the parents and child **in the home***!!!
But dont bash the teachers: theyre heroes for spending all day with the children the parents would rather die than be around.
In medicine would it be appropriate to bash well-meaning and hard working quacks? Yes, I think it would.
Teachers are supposed to be "professionals" yet no even one of them can prove that what they do in the classroom is effective. The reason for this is that **afterschooling** and its major contribution to a child's learning has **never** been measured! Yes, these teacher may be working very hard and may be very well-meaning and sincere, but their "treatment" might be completely ineffective and utterly bogus.
Unless afterschoooling and the hard work done by parents and the child **in the home** is measured and taken into account it is impossible to know if any government school is effective at teaching anything at all.
Classroom teachers really can’t be blamed for this -
Well....Teachers claim to be professionals, then they should act like professionals.
For example, if a hospital demanded that anesthesiologists use defective equipment pr techniques that was known to injure or kill patients, the anesthesiologists would flat out refuse to administer anesthesia and all surgery would come to complete halt.
If teachers know ( or should know) that certain math and reading programs hurt or injure children, if they were professionals, they would flat out **refuse** to use those methods.
That, in and of itself, is a scandal.
The Buffalo teachers’ union [I’m no fan] is fighting the state now to exclude chronically truant students from teacher evaluations. It only seems right, but the state won’t have any of it.
Maybe, just maybe, if these truant kids were forced to attend that the overall scores of the entire class would drop dramatically. Why?
Answer: Because the disruption caused by the children who are resentful for being imprisoned against their will in their government school classroom would be so great that the child who wanted to learn would be unable to learn.
I am a high school teacher in an urban school district. Da Fuhrer Mayor Bloomberg, along with his libtard buddy Gov. Cuomo, have brought about a teacher evaluation “deform” which is very heavily based on student test scores. What if, as I am, you are working with a bunch of kids with a reading level score of 1-2 (out of a scale of 4) with a strong anti-academic culture? Smart kids are in fear of being beat up, so they feel they have to act tough and not show their brains in class.
The students come to me with these abysmal reading levels as upperclassmen in high school. They cannot read much of the material assigned or only haltingly. I don’t have a textbook, none was supplied. Many kids come to class daily without a notebook or pencil to their name and have to ask for a handout from one of their classmates. It takes them a good 10-15 minutes AFTER the late bell to finally settle down in their seats and take out their notebooks (if they have one). There is never 5 minutes that goes by that I don’t have to stop and tell someone to stop talking, put away their cell phone or a newspaper, get off the person next to them (they embrace in class, I’m surprised a baby hasn’t been conceived by these so-much-more-than-hugs right in the middle of the classroom).
Get the picture?
Despite trying to call parents (75% of the time, you get a disconnected number) and working with the overworked guidance counselor, it’s hard to effect a positive change in behavior to try and improve their grades.
But I am evaluated as though these were white blue-eyed kids from upper middle class homes, as Bloomberg and Cuomo came from. Where such behaviors were not even in their imaginations, let alone carried out. My evaluation will be up to 40% based on the TEST SCORES of these students.
If you want to continue having your job, it’s very obvious what you are FORCED to do. Swallow your integrity and give falsely inflated grades.
So I can understand why these teachers across the nation are being forced to falsify grades. Test scores are NOT the sum total of what a child learns. They are merely a snapshot view of what the kid knows at THAT moment, on THAT day. What if they had a fight with their mom the night before? What if they found out their boyfriend was stepping out on them the day before the test? What if they are hungry because their parents use their money for drugs? What if their sibling is in the hospital? Do you think they will test optimally with these situations?
And what about the little progresses you see, but which will never be recorded as a test score? Laquita heard you when you told her about self-respect and now she dresses more modestly. Dequint will now read aloud in class because he knows no one will laugh at his halting reading. Jose is now doing his homework, which he never did before. Thomas is asking good questions in class now. These are results of a caring teacher, but that will never be recorded, you will never get credit for a titanic effort which results in these little steps.
It appears that Utah is the only state that does not have schools with suspicious scores. Hm? Could it be to the overall values of the teachers, principals, and families of the overwhelmingly Mormon state?
Only state? I'm curious as to which map you're looking at. On the AJC map, there aren't any school districts at the red level in Utah, but there aren't any in Wyoming, Nevada, or Nebraska, either. So Utah's not the only state with no school districts at the red level.
If you consider the yellow level an issue (which means classroom at the 5-10% rate, which I consider a issue), Wyoming and Nebraska are the only states that don't have school districts with suspicious scores. Utah and Nevada do.
So true . . . and yet I checked the page where you could type in a school district to see if it had unusual results, and 'Lake Wobegon' isn't among those districts that showed unusual results (smirk).
It will not be surprising if standardized-test cheating is extremely widespread. The Federal regime requires the schools to show improving results, and yet they are unable to actually produce improved student performance.
Both of us have posted earlier on this topic. Today's report suggests that the amount of cheating on the standardized tests used for determining Annual Yearly Progress (AYP) under the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 is a national shame. To me, there are two separate topics and arguing one doesn't affect the other.
There is no justification for the cheating. I understand that school districts could have faced federal remedial steps (if the failure to meet AYP had occurred two or more years in a row), that administrators put pressure on their sycophants, those sycophants put pressure on principals, and principals put pressure on teachers. It doesn't justify changing answers on test forms, telling students the correct answers, or the other forms of cheating. I'm simply not a believe in situational ethics at that level.
On the other hand, conservatives didn't like John Boehner's/George W. Bush's No Child Left Behind back in 2001. It's possible for a conservative now to say parts of that bill were bad law then and still are bad law without excusing the probably criminal acts of these teachers and administrators.
Take the fifth-grade AYP under No Child Left Behind, for example. Each year, a school's fifth graders must do better than the previous year's group of fifth graders on the standardized test, or else the school faces the possibility of remedial steps. Let me repeat: each year they must score better than the previous year.
If you're on a diet, it's like saying "great, you lost four pounds this month; that mean you must lose at least five pounds next month or else you'll face federal government sanctions." If you lose five pounds next month, then you have to lose at least six the following month, or else you failed and may face federal sanctions.
At some point, isn't the performance good enough that you shouldn't have to beat it the next year?
“At some point, isn’t the performance good enough that you shouldn’t have to beat it the next year?”
Nope. In education, its called the “growth model”. It’s been the focus of nearly all standardized testing since the 1990s. It assumes that improvement can be made until 100% is reached- and then because you can’t get more than that, your school becomes a failure. Let alone the fact that a small portion make it to 100%, many get stuck around 80%, and there are still some struggling to make 50%.
BTW, NCLB was bad law. The Federal government has no business interfering in education.
Agreed. I think the merits of NCLB can be discussed separately from the cheating scandal and that you can criticize NCLB without giving the teachers and administrators who cheated a free pass, which is what some people appear to think you're doing if you dare to criticize the law.
In education, its called the growth model. Its been the focus of nearly all standardized testing since the 1990s.
And somebody received a Ed.D for coming up with the idea, followed by many other Ed.D's awarded for commenting on and tweaking the idea, which, outside of the Ed.D world people would have understood wasn't sustainable from the beginning. They probably find you a delight in faculty meetings, don't they, when you try to bring rational thought to the table?
Teachers or administrators who falsify results in my state are actually breaking the state’s law if they do, and get what they deserve accordingly.
“They probably find you a delight in faculty meetings, don’t they, when you try to bring rational thought to the table?”
Actually, its a common complaint among teachers that if something is logical, then it won’t be done that way. The faculty at my school has no voice in a lot of things, the testing regimens come from the state and the Federal turds, and we get assaulted by whatever new fads come up that are supposed to fix everything and never does. A common thought would be “Just leave me alone and I’ll teach.” I am at least fortunate in that I teach in a conservative school in a rural area, so I am not subject to the persecution that I might be elsewhere.
I'm not naive. Mrs. Scoutmaster is a public schoolteacher in a metropolitan school district. The only Scoutmasterling left in elementary/secondary education attends a private religious school because (a) we understand the problems of which you speak and (b) we've been able to afford it in lieu of homeschooling, which was the alternative.
So I can understand why these teachers across the nation are being forced to falsify grades.
Forced? I understand the pressure, but they weren't forced to do anything. Did they give into economic coercion? Yes, but they had free will. People have lost their jobs in other occupations, or lost their lives or homes in extreme situations, because they were unwilling to falsify records or to lie. No, a teacher could have made a stand and been fired or forced out. Several could have made a stand and been fired or forced out. Fifty teachers could have have made a stand - "And friends they may think it's a movement,' as Arlo Guthrie would have said in his leftie way.
I know people who've personally taken moral stands that cost them their jobs or significant income. No, these teachers weren't 'forced' to do anything. Man has free will. These teachers exercised free will and bad judgment.
“So I can understand why these teachers across the nation are being forced to falsify grades. Test scores are NOT the sum total of what a child learns. They are merely a snapshot view of what the kid knows at THAT moment, on THAT day. What if they had a fight with their mom the night before? What if they found out their boyfriend was stepping out on them the day before the test? What if they are hungry because their parents use their money for drugs? What if their sibling is in the hospital? Do you think they will test optimally with these situations?”
I won’t deny that pressure exists. But one of the things as teachers we are supposed to do is model good behavior, and that includes integrity. I wouldn’t condone what these people did. You are right in the rest of what you say though, and in a few years I’ll be facing that same issue- test scores will be a part of how I am evaluated. Having taught in my district for a decade and a half, I fully expect to be canned at some point for low test scores when that happens. But I’m not going to change tests and lie about it to keep my job- because its wrong.
By the way, you have my deepest sympathy. I cannot do what you are doing because I cannot relate to inner city kids at all. God bless.
Teachers are "professionals" only in the sense that they are paid to do a job, rather than amateurs, doing it for free. Without a free market in education services, it would be difficult to determine which of them are skilled and effective instructors and which are space-fillers or worse.
... it is impossible to know if any government school is effective at teaching anything at all.
Without a well-designed study, there is only anecdotal evidence. I got a Merit Scholar education from public schools, not from my father, who was at sea most of my childhood, nor my mother, who is quite knowledgeable in business-related subjects, but certainly didn't teach me Spanish.
If we had fully private education - private tuition or private charity - so many "problems" would completely vanish!
And...Yes, my observations are completely anecdotal, but I haven't found even one exception. The amount of time that academically successful homeschoolers are spending in academic study in the home matches that of those who are academically successful but attend institutional ( Prussian-model) schools.
Honestly, before spending up to a quarter of million of dollars or more per child in government schooling, maybe we should find out **exactly** how and **where** academically successful children are acquiring their knowledge. No studies have every been done to determine this.
I was looking at “Map of suspicious scores..”
You are correct about Nevada, Wyoming, and Nebraska. The dot that I thought belonged in Nevada was actually for Lake Tahoe, California.
But...I am confused about the yellow dot. When I checked that box it seems that most of the yellow dots are concentrated in the north and northeast of the nation. I must not be doing it right.
If we had fully private education - private tuition or private charity - so many “problems” would completely vanish!
I absolutely agree!
There would be far more variety and options open to children and their parents, and the chances for a “good fit” for the child would be so much greater.
They're liberals - of course they cheat. Why not? They're soooooooo superior to the rest of us.. they deserve the right to be liars and cheats. Just ask them.
I agree. There's a perfectly obvious explanation, but that's not a justification or excuse. If teachers took a stand, inadequacies in the system would be revealed which might (she says, as a formal acknowledgment of the possibility) result in measures being taken actually to educate the students.
As EinNYC said, failure starts in the earliest grades, when so many of the children do not learn basic skills. By the time they reach high school, districts are throwing piles of money at them, trying to get them to some standard of competency, but it's too late. You can't teach science or social studies or even home ec to students who can't read. And you can rarely teach anything to school-inmates whose culture punishes them for showing any effort or accomplishment in academics.
As little as possible ;-).
How much reading did you do that was not directly related to your school courses but gave you a sounder educational foundation?
Every waking minute, including in the bathtub (leading to library fines) and in class at school, under agreement with teachers that I would respond if called-upon. Schools will cut a lot of slack for the students who are pulling the test scores up and winning the awards!
we should find out **exactly** how and **where** academically successful children are acquiring their knowledge
I agree with that 100%, as well as with your and EinNYC's comments about failure starting in the earliest grades. It's hard to teach a fifth grader any subject when the fifth grader can't read or do math at even a second-grade level. Except in very unusual cases, abandon hope when that fifth grader has become an eighth or tenth grader who can't read, spell, or do simple math.
One of my friends in the homeschooling group here - Tom’s debate coach, until Tom discovered cuter girls in science competition - moved his family into the area of the best high school in Charlotte-Mecklenburg, because he planned to send his children to public high school.
However, by the time his oldest child reached 9th grade, the district had eliminated most of the academically advanced high school programs and cut back on staff for what remained, because their priority is to try to teach the lowest-performing students *something*.
Maybe they could have, with a massive push on phonics and math-facts drill in the first and second grade, but there’s nothing to be done by the time they’re 14. Well-off and motivated parents can homeschool or send their children to private school or pay for tutors. The biggest loss is to the brightest and hardest-working students from lower-income families, who no longer have challenging courses available to them, and have to spend their high school years with “students” who don’t want to be there and are disrupting the environment for those who do want to learn.
No; you CHOOSE to do it.
You have NO backbone.
Get OUT of 'teaching'; 'cause you AIN'T!
So why allow it?
Ya still have FEET!
How can I learn to get paid by the word? ;^)
Sure, Elsie. I guess you’re gonna give me a job that pays the same, has the same benefits, the same pension, etc. that I’ve labored toward for nearly 20 years. That’s really nice of you, I must say.
If you don’t have a comparable job for me that I also love, then SHUT THE HELL UP, CRONE.
ALL the teachers around here are scared stiff for their jobs. The Little Dictator Bloombutt is closing schools left and right, instructing principals to harass over-50 teachers so that they will quit and they won’t have to pay their higher salaries, and pushing toward teacher evaluations that NO ONE could fulfill unless you’re in one of the few very elite schools. So if I have no backbone (which is a genuine LAFF), then neither do the thousands of other teachers caught in this Sophies Choice situation.
Fundamentally, when people willingly choose to play with government collectivist schools ( which are the very definition of a socialist-entitlement snakes) they shouldn't be surprised that they get bitten.
In far too many government schools far too many teachers are faced with a “Sophie's Choice”: be dishonest or be fired. In other words, sell one’s soul to the socialist snake or get bitten.
At first Obamacare won't be that bad due to the professionalism and culture of honesty of those trained in the old system. In time, though, health care workers will be forced to make “Sophie's Choices” but the consequences won't be fake grades or cheating on standardized exams. The choices will literally mean life and death for those forced into the socialist snake's health care system.
I sure as heck did not vote for the current Socialist politicians who are responsible for this nightmare. That was the product of the liberal idiots who take the leftist media at their word uncritically. But I am suffering under their policies, as are thousands of other teachers. In my own classroom, I still stand up for moral behavior (e.g., I pull grappling boys and girls apart, I advocate modest dressing and march up and down aisles during test to forestall copying).
If I am to SURVIVE to fight another day—vote out these amoral liberal filth—I have to continue to support myself and my family. I hate having to pass kids who don’t deserve it, especially knowing that they KNOW you have to pass them and therefore they don’t have to do much in the way of work.
It’s SICK, it’s anxiety causing, and it’s directly a result of liberal politicians deciding in their ego mania that THEY know best, even about subjects about which they are ignorant. Education run as a business, never mind the kids. Kids are NOT widgets!
You're admitting that you have let this cancer eat away at our Country for twenty years, and then you want to get the same BENEFITS that you do now??
Just cruise on in to your retirement and forget the consequences.
The common cry at Nuremburg:
"WE were just following orders."
Just who DID you 'vote' for?
"WHen they came for the Gypsie's, I didn't speak up for I wasn't a Gypsy."
The wolf is at the door; and he is VERY hungry!
The following applies to all government schools and is a **general*** comment about the entire institution of government school teaching:
Did you read anything beyond my first sentence? Here is is again:
Government schools are **collectivism**. They are the very definition of a compulsory funded, compulsory-use, single-payer SOCIALISM! They have **always** been this way! They are build on a rotten foundation of socialism.
So?....When teachers play with a socialist snake they should not be surprised that the snake bites them. In this case, ( there are many examples) it is lie, hand out false grades, cheat on tests, or get fired.
ALL government teachers, whether they chose to play with the government school socialist snake 50 years ago or yesterday, **knowingly** chose to play with that snake!
At first Obama care won't be that bad due to the values of those trained in the old system, but in a generation or two that is when we will see the true horror of socialized medicine. And...Every argument used to defend government schooling or reform it will be trotted out for Obamacare. Bet on it! Unfortunately, it will then be a life and death matter, not a question of a fake grade.
It is the inevitable result of all socialist-entitlement programs. Socialism always results in people being treated like widgets.
And...All the problems we see in the government schools will happen in Obamacare but the consequences will not be a fake grade or cheating on a test. It will mean life or death for the "widget".
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