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It all began with Noah
AZ Daily Sun ^ | 3/31/12 | ERIC BETZ

Posted on 03/31/2012 6:04:29 PM PDT by Borges

The Grand Canyon, and much of the rest of Earth's geological features, were formed in Noah's flood, and the underpinnings of modern science and textbooks are based on frauds that have been perpetrated in a war between secular culture and Christians. That was the message brought to Northern Arizona University's Cline Library Auditorium on Thursday night by Flagstaff resident Russ Miller, who travels around the country speaking at churches as part of his Creation, Evolution & Science Ministries. He also publishes books like "Noah's Ark and Dinosaurs," and he leads paid tours into the Grand Canyon teaching his beliefs.

"You need to understand that you're involved in the greatest world war in the history of the world, and at a foundational level this is a war of world views," Miller said. "It's not a war of bombs, bullets and airplanes, it's much more serious than that. This is a war that's already claimed the souls of billions of people." Miller believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible that he says confirms the Earth was formed over the course of six days several thousand years ago. He also believes that evolution is a religious belief.

"From the big bang ... to the big rock, to the rain on rock, to the spontaneous generation, to the first cells, to the first vertebrates; there is no evidence whatsoever. It's all a religious belief. And if you wanna believe that, it's fine; just admit it's a belief and stop teaching it in schools as fact," Miller said.

BIBLE AS 'TRUE HISTORY'

The talk was sponsored by the Victorious Life Christian Center in Flagstaff, which paid to rent the auditorium for Miller's talk. The audience was escorted to their seats by ushers in maroon sport coats with nametags and given fliers on the church. Most in attendance were church members, but there were a number of NAU science students and professors in attendance as well.

Miller was introduced by Tim Masters, a pastor at Victorious Life, who said the point of the talk was to present information, not to stir debate. "One thing about the Bible is it's not a science book, but it is the true history book of the universe," Miller said. "If billions of years of death existed before man, then the Bible is not true." Rather than attempt to prove that the Earth had formed in six days or present evidence for a global flood, Miller spent most of the talk attacking evolution. He presented a barrage of slides highlighting what he claimed were problems with everything from radio-carbon dating to humanity's hominid ancestors. Each point was met with alternating smatterings of laughter and 'Amen."

'ALL PRETTY RIDICULOUS'

His presentation flew in the face of modern findings in geology, biology, chemistry, physics and astronomy. "The problem is they have to not only carve the canyon with the flood but they have to lay down all the layers of sediment with the same flood," said Northern Arizona University Associate Astronomy Professor Dave Koerner, who attended the talk. "And so you have to lay down all these layers of sediment that are in the Grand Canyon, they have to solidify within a short amount of time, and then when the waters recede, you have to carve them out again. That's all pretty ridiculous and impossible, but it doesn't keep them from trying."

Koerner does research on planets forming around distant stars using NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope. He also teaches astrobiology -- the study of life in the universe -- among other courses at the university.

Koerner felt compelled to start a course call "Evolution vs. Creationism" in response to the controversy surrounding prior talks Miller gave on campus. The Daily Sun sat down with Koerner before Thursday's talk. "In general it's a free country and you can believe really nutty things if you want to. Why not?" Koerner said. "Where I have a problem is if you are trying to compel a lot of people or teach them things that contradict the scientific results in our culture. ... There's a lot of students and young people who could have promising careers in technical professions. As long as scientists are demonized to them and lied about it, it puts a roadblock in their way."

FROM CREATIONIST TO AGNOSTIC

Koerner was raised in a creationist household in southern California and taught Bible school himself for years. He says he loved science growing up, but was scared to learn science because it was cast as evil. He even believed a literal interpretation of the Bible up until he taught a course using the book of a well-known creationist named Henry Morris. The book, called "The Genesis Flood," actually helped turn him against a literal account of creation because it was so hard to believe, even with a limited understanding of science.

By the time he had finished an undergraduate degree in geology, he had erased any doubt in a scientific understanding of Earth's origins. And after getting his Ph.D. from the California Institute of Technology, he no longer believed in God at all. Koerner says he now considers himself agnostic.

"I was not actually able to go into the science, just psychologically, until I was well into my 30s," he said. "It took me that long to overcome all the indoctrination about young Earth and the idea that scientists are evil, anti-religious people, which is not true."

TWO RELIGIOUS BELIEFS

The talk on Thursday was closed out by Masters, who dismissed the crowd without taking questions.

"We're talking about two religious beliefs, creationism and evolution," Masters told the audience. "One has tremendous proof, one does not. There is an end to everything. ... The question we have to ask ourselves is, 'Where do we want to spend eternity?'"

He then finished with a prayer and asked people to come up and turn their lives to Christ if they saw fit. Many students walked out during the prayer. Miller was approached by several students after the talk who confronted him with scientific errors in his presentation, but the exchanges were mostly polite. That contrasted with previous talks at NAU during which discussions spun into yelling matches.

A small group of students stood outside in a protest, with one carrying a sign reading "Beware of Confirmation Bias."


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: creationism; genesis; grandcanyon; greatflood; noah; noahsflood; theology
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1 posted on 03/31/2012 6:04:35 PM PDT by Borges
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To: lightman

Ping.


2 posted on 03/31/2012 6:07:50 PM PDT by carriage_hill (I'll "vote for an orange juice can", over Barry 0bummer and another 4yrs of his Regime From Hell!)
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To: carriage_hill

God created the universe, life and everything. In His own manner and time that we are and have been trying to understand since He created us. The story in the Book of Genesis is, in my view, the story of that creation in the manner of how it could be comprehended thousands of years ago and is not “literally” true in the sense of 6 days, each 24 earth hours long. But He did create all of us.


3 posted on 03/31/2012 6:18:08 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: carriage_hill; Borges; zot

I also believe that there was a massive flood at sometime in the past, perhaps around 5,500 BC, that has come to us as the story of Noah’s flood, with the moral lessons embedded into it. Such lessons which make timeless sense. There are probably better sites than this one, http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_noah.htm , to describe the event I’ve mentioned, but it has the basic accounting of the scientific theory behind the flooding of the area we know as the Black Sea as the actual event we know as Noah’s flood.

Science grew during the Rennassiance and was fostered by the Church. To me, today’s separating Christian faith and science is a false separation. God gave us the ability to reason, we did not create it ourselves. God gave us that ability and the gift of free will to enable us to understand Him and His love for us. And He sent His only Son Jesus to remind us of that love and that He wants us to return to Him after our time on this small planet.


4 posted on 03/31/2012 6:34:39 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Borges

Noah
by Bill Cosby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATGrbTN63H4


5 posted on 03/31/2012 6:36:03 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: GreyFriar

Tis literally true. Even Jesus believed in Adam.


6 posted on 03/31/2012 6:39:37 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: Borges
The striated mud was caused by kinetic sorting of a high velocity horizontal mud/water flow. You can observe this directly when blasting a water hose sideways in deep tilled earth, or you can observe the data from Mt St Helens and the Spirit Valley, a mini Grand Canyon was formed there in the space of about 2 weeks, which is about the same amount of time that Immanuel Velokovski thinks the Grand Canyon was formed, when the Pacific Ocean lurched across the Continental Unites States, and then drained back over a big mud pad. Similar evidence of the flood may be found on Camelback Peak in Phoenix, AZ. As you hike near the summit the mud/sandstone lays right on top of the granitic bedrock, like a mantle of mud.
7 posted on 03/31/2012 6:47:52 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: GreyFriar
The real information about God's creation in the Book of Genesis is in the Hebrew letters themselves. If you want to glimpse some of that wonder you can visit Stan Tenen's Meru Foundation Website. There is a link to his book, "The Alphabet That Changed the World" "The Meru Project has discovered an extraordinary and unexpected geometric metaphor in the letter-sequence of the Hebrew text of Genesis that underlies and is held in common by the spiritual traditions of the ancient world. This metaphor models embryonic growth and self-organization. It applies to all whole systems, including those as seemingly diverse as meditational practices and the mathematics fundamental to physics and cosmology...Meru Project findings demonstrate that the relationship between physical theory and consciousness, expressed in explicit geometric metaphor, was understood and developed several thousand years ago."
8 posted on 03/31/2012 6:48:21 PM PDT by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: Borges
Rather than attempt to prove that the Earth had formed in six days or present evidence for a global flood, Miller spent most of the talk attacking evolution.

The reason literal creationists spend so much time attacking evolution and science is because they have no evidence on their side.

"In general it's a free country and you can believe really nutty things if you want to. Why not?" Koerner said. "Where I have a problem is if you are trying to compel a lot of people or teach them things that contradict the scientific results in our culture. ... There's a lot of students and young people who could have promising careers in technical professions. As long as scientists are demonized to them and lied about it, it puts a roadblock in their way."

At a time when the quality of education in the US is plummeting and the US is in real danger of losing its scientific supremacy, the LAST thing we need are charlatans actively trying to turn kids against science and teaching that scientists are evil.

Koerner was raised in a creationist household in southern California and taught Bible school himself for years. He says he loved science growing up, but was scared to learn science because it was cast as evil. He even believed a literal interpretation of the Bible up until he taught a course using the book of a well-known creationist named Henry Morris. The book, called "The Genesis Flood," actually helped turn him against a literal account of creation because it was so hard to believe, even with a limited understanding of science.

By the time he had finished an undergraduate degree in geology, he had erased any doubt in a scientific understanding of Earth's origins. And after getting his Ph.D. from the California Institute of Technology, he no longer believed in God at all. Koerner says he now considers himself agnostic.

"I was not actually able to go into the science, just psychologically, until I was well into my 30s," he said. "It took me that long to overcome all the indoctrination about young Earth and the idea that scientists are evil, anti-religious people, which is not true."

This story highlights a danger of literal creationism that I hypothesized about a long time ago, but have never expressed. Kids can be indoctrinated into believing that the creation story of Genesis is a literal account, and that to believe otherwise is sinful. But some kids have a strong curiosity about the natural world. It really doesn't take much for the kid to notice that the real world simply does not fit the Biblical story. They might find fossil seashells on a hillside twenty miles away from the coast, for instance. They could pick up a book about dinosaurs whose tone is that of a descriptive book, and they perceive that it is different than fantasy books. They might visit a park, where educational signage explains rock strata and their long geological history. Etc. To a kid who's been taught that evolution vs. creation is an either/or proposition, what conclusion will they draw when it becomes clear that there really is evidence that only supports one side, and it isn't the Biblical side? The way I see it, adherence to a strict literal creationist view is extremely damaging to the effort to bring people back into the fold. Is this what we really want?

What if, instead of indoctrinating him into a literal creationist interpretation of the Bible, Koerner's parents had instead encouraged his youthful wonder? What if they had, instead, told him that the process of evolution is, in fact, a sign of God's glory, since only He could devise the physical laws that made such a process possible? Would he still have rejected his faith completely, or would he be a witness to the wonder of creation as it actually is?

"We're talking about two religious beliefs, creationism and evolution," Masters told the audience. "One has tremendous proof, one does not. There is an end to everything. ... The question we have to ask ourselves is, 'Where do we want to spend eternity?'"

Masters is only talking about one religious belief, and trying to convince people that they can only demonstrate that belief by closing their eyes to the real wonder of the world around them. No doubt, he makes money by doing so. Scientific theories are not, never have been, and never will be, religious beliefs. And where we spend eternity isn't predicated upon our closing our ears and eyes to the scientific evidence all around us.

9 posted on 03/31/2012 7:00:56 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: blackpacific

Why is there only one canyon? Why isn’t there one in Maine or North Carolina? The Grand Canyon is there because of a large pluton of molten granite that resides beneath the Colorado Plateau. It is lighter than the surrounding host rock so it slowly rises because of buoyancy. As it rises, the river cuts downward.


10 posted on 03/31/2012 7:03:29 PM PDT by crusty old prospector
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To: Borges

A very disturbing thing to me about the concept of such a flood is the great number of innocent babies who would’ve died horrified in their mothers arms as the water rose above their mouths.


11 posted on 03/31/2012 7:10:08 PM PDT by bramps (Newt is the one)
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To: GreyFriar; Borges

Here are my favorite FReeper links for creation science gleaned over years and years of reading and lurking here...

101 Evidences for a Young Age of the Earth...And the Universe
http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth

Center for Scientific Creation - In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html

Dinosaur Shocker - 68 million year old T Rex w/ red blood cells
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/10021606.html#ixzz0VZChRzSL

New Chromosome Research Undermines Human-Chimp Similarity Claims
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2565348/posts

Science in the Bible
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

Testimonies of Scientists Who Believe the Bible
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2761001/posts


12 posted on 03/31/2012 7:12:15 PM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: bramps

Nonsense. All are born in sin.


13 posted on 03/31/2012 7:13:37 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1166 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: blackpacific

Yeah on Camelback it’s called a unconformity and happens when a newer layer of sediment deposits on an older rock formations, nothing to stop the whole mess from being thrust up into a mountain later on. And sandstone doesn’t need to come from seabed sand, desert sand is just the same.

And St. Helens is a volcano...it’s made of ash and pumice. I’m sure there are parts you can literally blast a water hose at it and make a small valley not to mention what a 400 mph pyroclastic flow can do. How the hell do you compare that to schist of the Grand Canyon?

And Velikovsky was a raving lunatic. The fact that he believed that the planets are changing their orbits all willy nilly was the least of his issues.


14 posted on 03/31/2012 7:14:51 PM PDT by Raymann
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To: GreyFriar

Thanks for the ping. I don’t take either side of this fight.


15 posted on 03/31/2012 7:17:55 PM PDT by zot
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To: null and void

I’m looking for something a little more substantial than that response. What sin has a one minute old baby committed? If God broke the story of creation down to six days so man could wrap his brain around it, why is it ‘nonsense’ for me to ask for a more tangible answer than ‘we’re all born into sin?’


16 posted on 03/31/2012 7:44:21 PM PDT by bramps (Newt is the one)
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To: Borges

Anyone in doubt about the errant thinking on any campus in the US of A ought to read the course catalogs and the student paper. The freak show we think of as higher education is already so fraught with nutcase ideas there is hardly any room to condemn the beliefs of millions of normal, moral and productive people.


17 posted on 03/31/2012 7:47:27 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (I'm for Churchill in 1940!)
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To: Raymann

Strawmen, ad hominem, begging the question, all the major food groups are represented in your response. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I have in my possession a Neospirifer Rockymontanus, found in a gravel pit in Ohio, buried alive, over a thousand miles from the oceans.

The data is there for anyone who has eyes to see. Just because academia has been blinding themselves for the last 100 years doesn’t mean that we have to believe what they say.

Camelback most definitely has desert sand caked upon it by the violent over flow of water and sealife, which is found all over the continent. The limestone deposits of the Midwest contain massive amounts of shellfish, all obviously buried alive, and preserved for all generations to see.


18 posted on 03/31/2012 8:00:18 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: blackpacific

I spend a few minutes searching for Spirit Valley that you mention. I can only find a Spirit Valley in Duluth Minnisota. I have read of a recent canyon carved out by a flood that resembles Grand Canyon in the carving through the layers of earth and rock.I would like to find out more.


19 posted on 03/31/2012 8:04:12 PM PDT by rightly_dividing
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The Jewish opinion (I sensed everyone was dying to know ;-) is that it is all literally true, literally 6 days. Regarding science and Torah (Bible,) we know that “G-d looked into the Torah and created the world.” So since the Torah is the blueprint for all creation, there can be, in essence, no conflict between science and Torah. To resolve the seeming contradictions, check our: http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Over-Matter-Lubavitcher-Technology/dp/B000M1I68U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333249316&sr=8-1


20 posted on 03/31/2012 8:10:14 PM PDT by Phinneous
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To: Borges
The Grand Canyon, and much of the rest of Earth's geological features, were formed in Noah's flood

There is a lot of evidence of Noah's flood lying around, but the canyon isn't part of it. The canyon is basically an electrical scar.

21 posted on 03/31/2012 8:14:34 PM PDT by varmintman
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To: beefree

ltr


22 posted on 03/31/2012 8:17:08 PM PDT by beefree
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To: Phinneous

bump


23 posted on 03/31/2012 9:13:43 PM PDT by KingNo155
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To: Borges

The Black Sea perhaps. The Grand Canyon to base level, no. And I am a believer in Genesis.


24 posted on 03/31/2012 9:28:25 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Borges; GreyFriar; blackpacific; JSDude1; crusty old prospector
At least the article tells it as it really is in its fourth sub-head - "TWO RELIGIOUS BELIEFS."

One religion comes from ancient writings (over two thousand plus years old) from many who interacted directly and indirectly with obvious diety. The other religion has no god, (supporting writings less than 160 years old) proposes matter sprang from nothingness, and all life in its near-infinite variety sprang from the same nothingness - taking millions or billion of years.

I've studied both 'religions' for over 65 years - one stands above the other through observable evidence.

We did battle at the Grand Canyon over 25 years ago. They had a sign near the bottom of the canyon - pointing to a dark layer they claimed was the 'Silurian' layer - where only ferns were present on earth.

We (Bible Science Association) got permission from national government to take a small sample of that layer. It was taken with great care, the process extensively documented by film, both still and live video. Pine pollen was found in the sample. The other side went nuts, claiming we allowed the sample to be polluted. We challenged them to take their own sample, and allow us to observe. They agreed... we watched, they found pine pollen as well. They took the sign down, and never gave further full attention to their claims of how the various layers of the Grand Canyon came about.

A world of honest science can be found on the internet. A good place to start is at THIS LINK were links to the Bible Science Association, the Institute for Creation Research, and many associated links can be found and followed.

25 posted on 03/31/2012 9:29:17 PM PDT by Ron C.
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To: GreyFriar
Science grew during the Rennassiance and was fostered by the Church. To me, today’s separating Christian faith and science is a false separation. God gave us the ability to reason, we did not create it ourselves.
It's worth noting that the man who could be considered the Father of Modern Science, and one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, Isaac Newton, spent more time studying the bible than he did inventing calculus and describing the laws of physics.
26 posted on 03/31/2012 9:32:20 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: bramps

Never made sense to me either. But it is what “they” say the Bible says.

Born in sin and will go to Hell unless they accept Jesus as their personal savior, something they can’t do until the age of reason.

The logical extension is the only way to guarantee that one commits no sin and therefore goes to Heaven is to die in the womb...


27 posted on 03/31/2012 9:34:21 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1166 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: blackpacific

I’ll grant the ad hominem against you (not against that quack you mentioned) but the rest you’ll have to prove. I directed every response to a statement you made so I’m not even sure where you’re pulling the strawman from.

Now I’ll admit I’m about as well versed in creation theory as the flat earth theory but I have to accept that you know a bit about what most other people know in the fields paleontology and plate tectonics.

So why even bother telling me you have a fossil (buried alive???) from Ohio...big freakin deal, virtually every single part of the planet was under water at one point or another, outside of a mountain range you’ll be hard pressed to find bedrock that doesn’t contain fossilized sea creatures in some amount.

As for Camelback are you changing your story there? What is this caked desert sand cause I’m pretty sure we’re talking about sandstone which is something entirely different then just sand.

But for the hell of it say you’re right? Explain to me then how desert sand, deposited on a mountain, turns into sandstone without being compressed by overhead deposits...where does the pressure come from to do such a thing?


28 posted on 03/31/2012 9:42:36 PM PDT by Raymann
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To: Borges

The real problem with evolution and the 6 days controversy is NOT in Genesis.

The real problem is later in Exodus when God makes it very clear: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. Ex 20:10

And then of course: Romans 3:4 Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

To me, that 6 days means just what it says: 6 24 hour rotations of the Earth, Days!


29 posted on 03/31/2012 9:56:47 PM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: null and void

Nonsense on the babies go to hell.

Job 3 and 16 and 17: “Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth”. Job said, “Let the day perish on which I was to be born and the night which said a boy is conceived! May that day be darkness.”

“Why was I not hidden like a stillborn child, like infants who never saw light?” Why didn’t I die in my mother’s womb? “There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest.”

Notice that key word: REST. What’s he saying? He’s saying, “I’d be better off if I miscarried. I would be better off if I were stillborn, so I wouldn’t have to face a troubling life—that I would enter immediately into,” what? “Rest.” “Rest.” Job understood that dying as an infant would bring one to rest and one would escape the pain of suffering. He certainly didn’t believe that infants that die go to hell and some eternal torment, but rather had the confidence that they enter into rest.

Job is the oldest book in the Bible and what most people had FOR a Bible before Moses wrote what we call the first 5 books.

But we can go on: In Ecclesiastes 6:3-5, Solomon laments. He laments that a stillborn child is better off than a person who lives a thousand years twice and doesn’t enjoy the right things. He says, “What’s the point of living two thousand years if you don’t ever enjoy true goodness? You’d be better off a stillborn child.”

What about sin? Total depravity? Are all babies born sinners? Yes!

Do all sinners go to hell?

NO!

John MacArther said it thusly:

How were you saved? By what? Grace! You say, “Well, if God just takes all the babies to heaven, that’s just grace!” Right! But how were you saved? By law? What do you want? Law for babies and grace for you? You had no more to do with your salvation than a helpless infant. That’s why the truest and purest theology is that theology which understands that salvation is by grace, and maybe that’s what Jesus had in mind in part when He said, “You who go to heaven, go to heaven as little children.” Is there a better illustration of a salvation by grace than the salvation of a helpless infant? Any true understanding of Scripture yields the reality that all salvation is by sovereign choice by God through grace based on nothing that the sinner merits, and is there a better illustration of that than saving lost infants? Does that magnify sovereignty? Does it magnify grace? Of course it does.

God chooses whom He will save. And God calls ALL. Some listen, some do not. The choice to go to hell belongs to you. Babies get full unconditional grace. No contradiction.


30 posted on 03/31/2012 10:13:14 PM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: null and void

I do believe you were deceived by my initial post. I’m not here to play games with anyone. I’m a Christian. A few years back I was probably living more in your shoes, but I had the pleasure of meeting some true Christians who are tremendous witnesses to Christ. I didn’t see it coming but one day I was just compelled to ask Christ into my life. I’m often conflicted and have many questions. But I have zero regrets. I post on a thread such as this seeking knowledge from those more informed than me, not to intentionally play the devil’s advocate.


31 posted on 03/31/2012 10:43:56 PM PDT by bramps (Newt is the one)
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To: Waywardson

That, sir, is the best answer I’ve ever gotten for that issue/question.

It does not dovetail perfectly with what else I’ve been told, but it is substantial food for thought.

Thanks!


32 posted on 03/31/2012 11:00:25 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1166 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: bramps

Deceived? No. You were forthright, I was presumptuous.

I also seek. Sometimes by asking, sometimes by poking, and sometimes by confronting.


33 posted on 03/31/2012 11:06:42 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1166 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: GreyFriar

Amen to that, GF.


34 posted on 04/01/2012 2:50:31 AM PDT by carriage_hill (I'll "vote for an orange juice can", over Barry 0bummer and another 4yrs of his Regime From Hell!)
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To: GreyFriar

Amen bigtime to that also, GF.


35 posted on 04/01/2012 2:54:16 AM PDT by carriage_hill (I'll "vote for an orange juice can", over Barry 0bummer and another 4yrs of his Regime From Hell!)
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To: Borges

Biblical literalists make themselves and other Christians look bad by trying to use the Bible for something it was never intended for. It gets liberals laughing like crazy, who turn around and use it to make atheists out of college students. It’s time to let go of the quaint 19th century American heresy of Biblical literalism; Christians got along fine without it for many centuries before someone declared out of nowhere that the Bible was relative to its interpreter while somehow it was sacred at the same time. When it comes to Creation, it should be enough to believe that God is real, that He is the ultimate cause behind the universe and its creatures, and that He takes a personal interest in what goes on here.


36 posted on 04/01/2012 3:53:17 AM PDT by Mmmike
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To: Borges
Biblical literalists make themselves and other Christians look bad by trying to use the Bible for something it was never intended for. It gets liberals laughing like crazy, who turn around and use it to make atheists out of college students. It's time to let go of the quaint 19th century American heresy of Biblical literalism; Christians got along fine without it for many centuries before someone declared out of nowhere that the Bible was relative to its interpreter while somehow it was sacred at the same time. Then there ensued a "race to the bottom" as the logic of interpretive relativism played itself out. In reaction, there arouse the equal and opposite absurdity of Biblical literalism which looks like a way to stand athwart history yelling "Stop!" -- but only if you're committed to smothering the sacred with your own little subjective self in the first place. That's the common thread that unites Creationism and Evolutionism: too much human ambition with respect to things that are fundamentally mysterious.

When it comes to Creation, it should be enough to believe that God is real, that He is the ultimate cause behind the universe and its creatures, and that He takes a personal interest in what goes on here.

37 posted on 04/01/2012 4:03:30 AM PDT by Mmmike
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To: null and void

Good post to wake up to. My best wishes in your search.


38 posted on 04/01/2012 5:45:04 AM PDT by bramps (Newt is the one)
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To: Mmmike

Let them laugh all they want - it only shows someone so closed-minded they have not considered some very simple truths and how well these self-evident truths have dovetailed with creation science. Although I’ve heard your argument many times before I simply can not agree -

2 main points:

Genesis is foundational to my true faith. It explains creation and the fall in enough details to explain not only the what, why, and when of our history, yet it also explains our present imperfect state and all the the ways we need to strive to be better.

All of scripture is God-breathed so if there are any outright falsehoods then God and His Holy Word are completely untrustorthy on all His promises. My faith will not allow me to believe God a liar - everyman yes but God no!


39 posted on 04/01/2012 6:34:32 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: Waywardson

Awesome post Waywardson! I often listen to MacArthur too - at oneplace.com


40 posted on 04/01/2012 6:41:53 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: All

To all those laughing closed-minded individuals, please see my links at post #12 in this thread if you want to see some truly awesome facts found in creation science. Think about this ~ Seashell fossils are found on the tops of all mountain ranges worldwide.

Here’s another cool link showing how pervasive the Noah’s Ark legend is with many varied cultures worldwide. Like you should expect for an event Biblically purported to have occurred some 4,500 years ago.

http://shipsonstamps.org/Topics/html/arche.htm


41 posted on 04/01/2012 6:51:33 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: Waywardson
OK. I've had a bit of time to mull that over.

Please indulge me while I paraphrase back what I think you said and my thoughts:

According to Job, a baby's afterlife is a place of rest. This is not what we think of as Heaven.

What we think of as Heaven is simply too intense an environment for someone of the intellectual and spiritual level of an infant.

A baby would no more be comfortable in that Heaven than they would in the middle of a rock concert! Innocents get an age/developmentally appropriate afterlife, a place of warmth, love and comfort.

By contrast, one can look at any number of medieval paintings and see people being "driven into" Hell. A closer look reveals they are escaping into Hell! The terrible light and glory of God and Heaven is overwhelmingly fearful to most.

The highest complement one could give used to be to describe someone as "God fearing". The Bible is rife with examples of prophets and shepherds being terrified by the presence of the divine.

Given a choice most of us would be in a comfort zone with respect to the old God Himself, not so close that we would be overwhelmed and consumed, not so far that we would freeze alone in desolation.

The modern god is a good ol' boy, neutered and harmless, everybody's bud. The modern heaven is sort of a quiet party central, with no sense of purpose, but lots of lotus blossoms to eat.

From my understanding, Heaven -the old Heaven- will ultimately be populated by God, a host of Angels and a select few (144,000?) tough enough and spiritually prepared ex-humans who will have the wherewithal to defeat the Dragon. The rest of us don't make the cut, but will presumably be there for the following peace on earth.

Or not.

42 posted on 04/01/2012 7:37:30 AM PDT by null and void (Day 1167 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: null and void

OK, first, yes, REST is what Jesus said was Heaven too.

There are over 200 verses to this one and in no way can I do that justice in one post.

However, the strongest and most direct cases are Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4. (excerpt) Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

In Heaven there will be MANY roles: Not every one in Heaven is equal. Not everyone in Heaven is even “Saved”. This gets very complicated, so I will only brush across it and leave the detailed searching of matters to whomever so chooses to explore further.

There are at least 4 different “ranks” in Heaven. What we call the old testament saints, the new testament saints, the tribulation saints and the angels. There is doctrine for more, but these are enough for the proof of concept.

These are in Heaven by 4 different means: Justified by Faith, Justified by Grace, Justified by Martyrdom, and created beings who did not side with Satan in rebellion.

Read all of Romans Chapter 9: (Excerpt) Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

And 2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.

So let me place this into a context of babies and “others”. The mentally feeble and last minute sinners.

In Heaven, you will be whatever is left of Christ, that is tried by fire, the old you will be burned away. Some verses also say cleaved or cut away. Many examples. The gist is, if you are 90% selfish sinner and 10% saved, you will be a small thing in heaven. Forever. Unable to grow, change, eternal as is. Perhaps a wooden spoon in the kitchen, while someone else is a gold flower vase in the dining room? Follow that analogy?

So, a baby, did not make many or any choices, they get to go to heaven, they will not be cast out into eternal darkness and shame, but they also will be must more than a baby either.

Same for the guy who repents on death row. He might actually go to heaven, but he may be a chamber pot under a bed. Better than HELL, but surely NOT the eternal glory he could have chosen.

As for the population of hell and that 144,000 number, most outside of the Jehovah’s witnesses, believe that to be Jews “saved” during the tribulation. If they get counted as tribulation saints, or old testament saints, or one of the “other” classifications is simply unknowable. 144,000 do get “saved” in the generic sense, but what of them eternally beyond that? It does not say directly.

As for the “saved” or “church” that will be millions. And the tribulation saints, billions. But only the Church is the bride of Christ in role.

Hope that gives you so fun and interesting thoughts to seek out.

Be blessed.


43 posted on 04/01/2012 9:43:10 AM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: Waywardson

Hmmm. Not every American ever sees the president...


44 posted on 04/01/2012 9:47:36 AM PDT by null and void (Day 1167 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: Borges
Ask a Darwin worshiper how homosexuality fits into his religion.
It's fun to listen to.
45 posted on 04/01/2012 10:01:15 AM PDT by right way right (What's it gonna take?)
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To: All
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46 posted on 04/01/2012 10:08:45 AM PDT by EveningStar
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To: samtheman

Yea, Verily. And also ignored or denied by those who say science and Christian faith have never been related.


47 posted on 04/01/2012 10:23:44 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Waywardson
Once God is brought in, all is simple. ....Shut Him out, and man is lost in the efforts of his own imagination....Without faith we would be limited to the very narrow world comprehended by the senses.....The creation story is not in conflict with science; ...it is in conflict with any worldview in which God is absent.

By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things Not seen......Heb 11

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host. ......For He spoke, and it was done;.. He commanded, and it stood fast..........Psl 33:6/Psl 33:9

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being... John1:3

Why "through faith"?...... Because "the things that are seen were not made of things which do appear.".... For this is Faith......

"True faith drops its letter in the post-office box, and lets it go. Distrust holds on to a corner of it, and wonders that the answer never comes". ..A.B. Simpson

48 posted on 04/01/2012 11:32:42 AM PDT by caww
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To: BrandtMichaels
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49 posted on 04/01/2012 1:13:29 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: GreyFriar

Modern science and the scientific method grew DIRECTLY out of Western Christianity and there is no analog to the process elsewhere on Earth, or in history.


50 posted on 04/01/2012 1:25:05 PM PDT by samtheman
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