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Rise in justifiable homicides linked to weak gun control laws
guardian.co.uk ^ | 5 April, 2012 | Harry J Enten, Gabriel Dance and Karen McVeigh

Posted on 04/05/2012 7:58:27 PM PDT by marktwain

Rising numbers of civilian justifiable homicides across the US are closely linked to states with both weak gun controls and stand-your-ground laws, according to a Guardian analysis of FBI and other data, which show a 25% increase in such killings since the controversial self-defence laws started being introduced around 2005.

Stand-your-ground (SYG) measures, which have attracted increasing scrutiny since the fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin by a neighbourhood watch volunteer in Florida, allow citizens to use deadly force when they believe their life is in danger, without requiring them to retreat or try to escape the threat first.

Florida was the first state to introduce an SYG law in 2005 and similar measures have now been adopted in some form by more than 20 states. Many were passed in 2006.

The Trayvon Martin case has led to calls for the SYG laws to be reviewed or repealed.

But the Guardian analysis shows that these measures alone cannot be statistically linked with the rise in justifiable homicides. However, in states with both SYG laws and the weakest gun controls – as defined by the Brady Campaign against gun violence – we found a statistical correlation with an increase in justifiable homicides.

Across the US, such killings have risen sharply over the last five years, according to the data provided by the FBI and the Florida department of law enforcement. Between 2001 and 2005, there were 1,225 homicides classed as justifable, compared to 1,528 in the period 2006-2010. By contrast, violent crime overall has been falling.

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; crime; selfdefense; trayvonmartin; us
Justifiable Homicides up, violent crime down, clearly this is a bad thing, according to the Guardian. /S
1 posted on 04/05/2012 7:58:34 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Hey guardian azzhats, thanks for making it abundantly clear that you are part of the predator class. See my tag...


2 posted on 04/05/2012 8:01:11 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: marktwain

So the opposite result is better?

Murders and lots of violent crime linked to strong gun laws?


3 posted on 04/05/2012 8:02:59 PM PDT by TSgt (The only reason I have one in the chamber at all times, is because it is impossible to have two in.)
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To: marktwain

It took 3 geniuses to write this?

You say it like it’s a bad thing.


4 posted on 04/05/2012 8:03:27 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: smokingfrog

The Guardian has to be excerpted. It is a far left English paper. The entire article makes it clear that the disapprove of ordinary people having access to guns.


5 posted on 04/05/2012 8:05:59 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Hey Guardian...go screw. One of your headlines about the gun free England just two months ago.

“Murder rate rose 5% last year”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/19/murder-rate-rose-5-percent

How many victims saved their lives in the US being armed over victims being killed being unarmed in the UK, you Commie Pinko losers?


6 posted on 04/05/2012 8:06:20 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: piytar
"Justified homicides by police are also up," said Kenney. "The police are shooting more people and citizens are shooting more people. We're evolving into an increasingly coarse society with no obligation to diffuse a situation and rapidly turn to force.

It's hard to diffuse a situation with people who only understand violence. I know this first hand. You simply aren't going to be able to talk your way out of getting your head slammed into the concrete. Ask Reginald Denny...
7 posted on 04/05/2012 8:06:37 PM PDT by TSgt (The only reason I have one in the chamber at all times, is because it is impossible to have two in.)
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To: marktwain

“the disapprove” should be “they disapprove”


8 posted on 04/05/2012 8:06:51 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

TRANSLATION: Eric Holder’s people consider violent crime to be a legitimate career path, and armed victims to be an OSHA violation.


9 posted on 04/05/2012 8:11:01 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Over half of U.S. murders are of black people, and 90% of them are committed by other black people.)
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To: marktwain

The Guardian is happy with the skyrocketing crime rate in England. They want to share with us.


10 posted on 04/05/2012 8:12:12 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: marktwain

“However, in states with both SYG laws and the weakest gun controls... we found ...an increase in justifiable homicides.”

Great news! It works!


11 posted on 04/05/2012 8:16:13 PM PDT by running_dog_lackey
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To: marktwain

I fail to see any problem.....


12 posted on 04/05/2012 8:16:13 PM PDT by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: marktwain

This editorial of theirs must have been terribly hard to write, because in just about any direction they could argue, self-defense is always reasonable.

It would be interesting to write an article about a future Britain where guns were legal, criminals had to serve long and harsh prison sentences, and heinous criminals would be executed. Such an article would be positive and optimistic, and show how the overall character of the British would improve.

Such an article would imagine ordinary people protecting and defending the elderly the young and the weak from violence by criminals, how the streets were again safe, and how disorderly and vicious people were put on the defensive out of fear of the good citizenry.


13 posted on 04/05/2012 8:20:45 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("It is already like a government job," he said, "but with goats." -- Iranian goat smuggler)
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To: marktwain

So if justifiable homicides go up but violent crime goes down, doesn’t that mean that less good guys are dying?


14 posted on 04/05/2012 8:21:49 PM PDT by Rusty0604
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To: marktwain

Uh Guardian, a dead thug is a good thing.


15 posted on 04/05/2012 8:22:28 PM PDT by MNDude
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To: marktwain

It is pretty obvious to anyone with at least two functioning brain cells (which automatically disqualifies libtards) that Mr. Zimmerman could not retreat while the larger Mr. Martin was on top of him smashing his head into concrete repeatedly.

He was not “standing his ground”, he was pinned to it.


16 posted on 04/05/2012 8:25:38 PM PDT by 43north (BHO: 50% black, 50% white, 100% RED)
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To: marktwain

The guardian can kiss my red-white-and-blue ass. Fight for what you believe in, stand your ground, and live by the rules set forth by our founding fathers. That is the American way!


17 posted on 04/05/2012 8:27:27 PM PDT by factoryrat (We are the producers, the creators. Grow it, mine it, build it.)
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To: TSgt

Preaching to the choir here.

Thugs have TRIED to mug me twice.

TRIED.

Won’t go into details, let’s just say I’m culturally a Texan (now living in Cali).


18 posted on 04/05/2012 8:28:54 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

“Eric Holder’s people consider violent crime to be a legitimate career path, and armed victims to be an OSHA violation.”

Good one. Prepare to be plagiarized.


19 posted on 04/05/2012 8:28:57 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: running_dog_lackey

Great news! It works!
______________________________________________________

This is really the truth. So now instead of murders by burglars, rapist we have JUSTIFIED killing. Killing a bad guy keeps him from killing how many others, how many burglaries are prevented?

It is a shame that Martin had to die, but, it was justified. As far as I’m concerned bad guys don’t deserve to be in society. If Martin was just a burglar then he shouldn’t have had to die, but he was not just a burglar, he was a violent criminal out to kill Zimmerman and steal his gun. It was the gun he wanted. It started out just giving some pain to whitey but when he discovered the gun it was time for Travon to kill. Fortunately it was Travon Martin that got killed instead of the good law abiding citizen Zimmerman.

I am so tired of people saying Zimmerman disobeyed a police order to stop following Martin. That is not what happened, a police radio dispatcher, not a cop, more like a receptionist told Zimmerman that he didn’t have to keep following. Nobody told him not to. As it turns out Zimmerman probably protected his community from Martins life of crime.

Stand your ground laws simply protect you when you stand up to a criminal. There should be a reward given to a person who kills a criminal in the commission of a crime.


20 posted on 04/05/2012 8:29:52 PM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: marktwain

Justifiable. Hmm, is it just me, but doesn’t that word imply that the killing was, uh, justified?

And that’s why it’s not called “justifiable murder”?


21 posted on 04/05/2012 8:33:29 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
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To: marktwain
...in states with both SYG laws and the weakest gun controls...we found a statistical correlation with an increase in justifiable homicides.

Note, the emphasis above is mine. So, the reverse is true then? In states with "strong" gun control laws and/or no stand-your-ground provision there are fewer justifiable homicides? Are the people there just nicer? Or are people deserving of getting killed being allowed to live and harm/threaten/kill others?

I'm sorry Guardian, you just made our (us pro 2nd Amendment types) case. Justifiable homicides are, well justified by definition. As if there were any doubt:

By contrast, violent crime overall has been falling.

Let me guess, they didn't investigate any statistical linkage there, any causal relationship. Or if they did, they didn't like the results and therefore aren't reporting on it. Bad people being justifiably killed, and violent crimes are decreasing. Hmmm, that's a tough one... Ok, you got me. I fail to see a problem here, other than the potential for a rise in the demand-for, and cost-of ammunition.

22 posted on 04/05/2012 8:39:10 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obama now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: piytar

“According to the FBI’s crime reporting handbook, “Justifiable homicide, by definition, occurs in conjunction with other offenses”. It reminds reporting agencies to “take care to ensure they do not classify a killing as justifiable or excusable solely on the claim of self-defense or on the action of a coroner, prosecutor, grand jury or court”.”

On careful reading, the above is a null statement, in that the FBI warns against accepting a defendant’s claim of self-defense, and/or “the action of a coroner, prosecutor, grand jury or court”.

Stupid FBI Butt Monkey quoted in the above (from the article) has left no way to ascertain guilt.

I’m sorry, the nice FBI Butt Monkey wants Holde’s Hoodz to decide.

If J. Edgar were alive, he’d be collecting that Butt Monkey’s panties, after kicking said Monkey’s butt until its nose bled. The FBI has come down a long way, judging from the above.


23 posted on 04/05/2012 8:43:18 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: ThunderSleeps

OK, hate to do this, but I have to disagree with you. There is a more serious problem involved. You said, “ I fail to see a problem here, other than the potential for a rise in the demand-for, and cost-of ammunition.”

Good handguns are getting more expensive, too.


24 posted on 04/05/2012 8:46:05 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: TSgt

apparently- that’s how liberals think unfortunately- if it’s bad, it must be good- if it’s good, there msut be a law to prevent any more good from happening- so as not to discriminate agaINST ANYONE APPARENTLY

To mostl iberals, morality is a subjective suggestion, to God however, morality is a decree of the highest order- Tha’s evidently why the left hates it so much- it restricts their own sense of justification and is too narrow for their liking- They want God- but they want God to be made in their image-


25 posted on 04/05/2012 8:47:07 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: marktwain

justifiable homicides == self defense

I’d rather have more dead bad guys then more dead victims

then again, I’m a stupid conservative type that believes in smaller govt and tougher crime laws (whose sentences are actually carried out completely)


26 posted on 04/05/2012 9:04:33 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: piytar

Notice the Guardian’s use of a young Trayvon photo and a current one of Zimmerman. Oldest communist trick in the world. Used in Vietnam by Hanoi a lot.

But then again, the Guardian is a marxist rag and always has been. The old US marxist Guardian was a far better paper. At least it told its readers it was marxist.


27 posted on 04/05/2012 9:08:23 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: piytar
Ah, you're absolutely right. Thanks for catching my oversight!

Good shotguns are still fairly reasonable. They also provide a nice audible deterrent. Nothing quite says "get out of my house" like the sound of a 12 gauge pump jacking one into the chamber. Of course, concealed carry can be a bit problematic.

28 posted on 04/05/2012 9:08:28 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obama now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: marktwain

I wonder if they bothered to check to see that gun crime in the UK is higher than the per capita gun crime in the US. And in a country with one of the highest restrictive gun laws. No more knives with sharp points either, only rounded ones are now for sale. Then too, a country where if you hurt or injure someone breaking into your house you’re the one who is going to be arrested.


29 posted on 04/05/2012 9:10:08 PM PDT by SkyDancer (Talent Without Ambition Is Sad - Ambition Without Talent Is Worse)
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To: JAKraig
It was the gun he wanted. It started out just giving some pain to whitey but when he discovered the gun it was time for Travon to kill. Fortunately it was Travon Martin that got killed instead of the good law abiding citizen Zimmerman.

Thanks, I was beginning to feel lonely. The first reports mentioned Zimmerman's gun (semiautomatic) as recovered by the police, having a full magazine and an empty shell case in the chamber. The only way I could see that happening is Martin grabbing the gun with his left hand over the slide while he tried to wrestle the gun from Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had his finger in the trigger guard and Martin yanked the gun back towards his chest, it is probable that he in fact shot himself in the chest. The gun fired while he was holding the slide in place which prevented the empty from being ejected and a live round from being loaded into the chamber.

It would be very interesting to see if Martin had nitrate residue on his left palm and forearm.

Regards,
GtG

30 posted on 04/05/2012 9:14:18 PM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: ThunderSleeps

Yes, that noise will open some eyes.. I suspect readying a 9mm would get their attention as well. But a 12 gauge is something everyone knows the sound of.

at least you can hide a 9mm on your body.


31 posted on 04/05/2012 9:19:32 PM PDT by cableguymn (Good thing I am a conservative. Otherwise I would have to support Mittens like Republicans do.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

That’s my suspicion as well. Not that such a technical fact will matter to obastard, Sharpton, Jesse, Holder, and Holder’s “my people.” Or the rest of the leftscum...


32 posted on 04/05/2012 9:22:19 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: marktwain

People exercising self-defense is not a bad thing. Only for the criminals.

Put the shootings in context, how many were deemed to be non-justified? Come on liberal media!

It’s not like permit holders go hunting for trouble. Trouble finds them, like bashing in their doors, trying to rob them, carjack them. Freaking idiots.

All of them wishing they had a gun when their daughter is raped in front of them and the thugs decide to murder the lot of them.


33 posted on 04/05/2012 9:36:23 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: ThunderSleeps

Great point! Going to buy a Mossy 12 gauge this weekend! /no joke


34 posted on 04/05/2012 9:52:50 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: marktwain

[Rise in justifiable homicides linked to weak gun control laws
]

I’m not seeing the problem.


35 posted on 04/05/2012 9:56:13 PM PDT by DaxtonBrown (http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php)
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To: marktwain

The more thugs we shoot the less thugs there will be. I don’t see a problem!


36 posted on 04/05/2012 10:16:22 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: marktwain
If accurate and honest, would simply say:

Rise in Justifiable Defense linked to Weak Criminal Control laws!
37 posted on 04/05/2012 10:40:10 PM PDT by Torquay
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To: marktwain

To paraphrase John Lott: “More Guns; Less Criminals”


38 posted on 04/05/2012 10:53:40 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: marktwain
The Brits should mind their own business. It's not looking too nice in their neck of the woods with the rampaging muzzies and socialist slackers. Will there be more riots as the weather warms up?
39 posted on 04/05/2012 11:00:19 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: smokingfrog
It took 3 geniuses to write this?

Harry is trying hard to get laid with either Gabriel or Karen.

40 posted on 04/05/2012 11:35:46 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The meek shall not inherit the Earth)
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To: smokingfrog
It took 3 geniuses to write this?

Harry is trying hard to get laid with either Gabriel or Karen. Leftists have the same proclivities as Bonobo Chimps.

41 posted on 04/05/2012 11:37:16 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The meek shall not inherit the Earth)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
The more thugs we shoot the less thugs there will be. I don’t see a problem!

You don't see anything wrong with not being able to shoot the apologists?

42 posted on 04/05/2012 11:44:01 PM PDT by papertyger (The Unwritten Beatitude: Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be broken.)
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To: marktwain
So, the idiots at the Guardian would prefer that the criminals do the killing, instead of normal Americans defending themselves and their families.

That's a bizarre and wrongheaded argument to make on the Guardian's part.

To me, the only tragedy is that so many normal citizens have had to defend themselves and their families from feral criminals who do not fear breaking into a man's home or mugging citizens on the streets.

It is evident that the idiots at the Guardian would rather see Americans burdened with the same tragic situation as in Britain, where home invasions and street robberies are common, and the criminals rarely punished.

If these criminals would stop being violent predators, they would stop dying.

43 posted on 04/06/2012 2:39:11 AM PDT by snowsislander (Gingrich 2012.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

Thanks, I was beginning to feel lonely. The first reports mentioned Zimmerman’s gun (semiautomatic) as recovered by the police, having a full magazine and an empty shell case in the chamber. The only way I could see that happening is Martin grabbing the gun with his left hand over the slide while he tried to wrestle the gun from Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had his finger in the trigger guard and Martin yanked the gun back towards his chest, it is probable that he in fact shot himself in the chest. The gun fired while he was holding the slide in place which prevented the empty from being ejected and a live round from being loaded into the chamber.

It would be very interesting to see if Martin had nitrate residue on his left palm and forearm. . . .
________________________________________________________

While I wonder about the powder residue and agree with your probable assessment, the powder residue does not prove anything accept that what Zimmeran said COULD have happened. Martin could have just as well been trying to keep Zimmerman from shooting him and the evidence results would be the same.


44 posted on 04/06/2012 6:13:54 AM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: marktwain

And WE bailed THIS DUMBASS Inbred “Country”s’ ASS out twice in the 20th Century/ We should have let the Kaiser and/or the Nazis have this POS “Country” then NUKED ALL OF THEM!


45 posted on 04/06/2012 7:16:17 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: marktwain

IOW before laws were corrected, innocent people were being charged. This is why stand your ground laws have prohibitions against an arrest.

The artible fails to mention how this has neutered the tort lawyers who sued on these. Remember this has also helped with our home liability insurances.


46 posted on 04/06/2012 7:19:42 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: marktwain

Sheesh...you’d think the Feds would have enough common sense to not want their tax paying citizens slaughtered and the parasites living on the dole in jail?!!!!!

Or is it that the Dems see potential voters dying?


47 posted on 04/06/2012 7:32:44 AM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
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To: JAKraig
Martin could have just as well been trying to keep Zimmerman from shooting him and the evidence results would be the same.

Perhaps, however I would think that if Martin was trying to block the pistol he would have pushed it sideways to deflect the point of aim. Of course then the gun would have cycled and the spent shell casing ejected. He would have done better to push back on the slide, taking it out of battery, as that would keep the gun from firing. In which case the shell in the chamber would still be live as no shot occurred. Odds are that he had his hand gripping the slide (which kept it from cycling properly) and was trying to pull it out of Zimmerman's hand. Bad idea! Given that either man could have fired the gun we will never know for certain, even Zimmerman can't know for sure.

I like the irony of him shooting himself, it makes a strong point about gang bangers (being relatively low wattage...).

Regards,
GtG

48 posted on 04/06/2012 9:23:21 AM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: marktwain

Debunking the stand your ground myth
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2867480/posts

good thing the “Guardian” isn’t guarding our Constitution.


49 posted on 04/06/2012 10:31:20 AM PDT by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: marktwain

I know we talked about this - but took me a while to get what the words were saying. OK we have states where you can get firearms easily and crime is down - and they say that is a bad thing - what a screwed mess.


50 posted on 04/08/2012 3:57:58 PM PDT by Tubac414 (Just want to ride my Motorcycle)
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