Skip to comments.North Korea Says Interception Of Its Satellite Is An Act Of War
Posted on 04/06/2012 8:59:05 AM PDT by Fennie
North Korean leader Kim Jong-un has ratcheted up his regime's militaristic rhetoric as Pyongyang threatened to retaliate against any country that intercepts a North Korean rocket booster or collects the rocket debris.
The North has vowed to launch a rocket sometime between April 12 and 16 to put an earth observation satellite into orbit, a move widely seen as a pretext to disguise a banned test of its ballistic missile technology.
The Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea in Pyongyang warned that interception of the satellite would be "an act of war" and would cause a tremendous catastrophe.
(Excerpt) Read more at koreatimes.co.kr ...
Their military is crumbling due to a lack of proper maintenance, their soldiers are starving almost as badly as the populace, abusive treatment just means abused soldiers—not tough soldiers, and if you think Saddam’s generals were afraid of him, then you can’t even imagine how scared Kim’s generals are of his royal fatness.
It would be messy, but I don’t think it’s as dire as you believe it would be.
Don’t forget to mention that it might be a nice gesture to send back the USS Pueblo, in the same condition it was in before they shot it up.
In regards to my original points—irrelevant.
Sure. We can use those weapons the Chinese built with the fake parts. That’ll get us far.
Let me testify for my father who survived the Hadong Massacre a week before his 18th birthday.
Them little buggars can fight, and they're all true believers.
We should never send another man on ground above the 38th parallel. We must tell China that if a war starts we will nuke North Korea with 250, 100+KT weapons in the first 15 minutes. And, we will follow with another 1,000 for anyone who intervenes.
Especially if you are bombing where the enemy isn't.
North Korea is the gift of Harry Truman. The man who ended WW II then fell to the wishes of the commies that controlled the FDR administration.
I've got family in Korea, some of them in South Korean military units likely to be among the first to take the brunt of an assault, and one of my relatives had been in a South Korean special forces unit whose mission, in the event of the invasion for which they regularly trained, included things which he knew full well would not be survivable. His mission basically was to make sure Korea still existed for his family, because everybody knew he'd never be coming back.
So yes, maybe my judgment is problematic. Many of yours would be too if we were talking about the ramp-up to World War II and you had relatives in Poland, Belgium or France (I don't add the Netherlands because the Dutch wrongly thought their neutrality would protect them, as it had in World War I, until Hitler actually invaded).
We can't be Neville Chamberlains, burying our heads in the sand about the North Korean threat, but we also can't act as if it would be a cakewalk. Please listen to Mariner. He's right... the North Korean military when his father was fighting in 1950 was far worse than its current condition, and they fought bitterly then with much less than they have today, and didn't have the “benefit” of six decades of Communist indoctrination to brainwash soldiers into obeying orders.
As Mariner said, “them little buggars can fight.” That's especially true if the North Korean sergeants and platoon leaders know that they'll suffer a far more painful death than an American bullet if they don't follow their orders to attack. We had lots of POWs and defectors from North Korea during the Korean War, caused largely by people who had lived under communism for only a few years — North Korean soldiers today have gone through three generations of communism and know nothing else.
Yes, I understand that a brutalized soldier does not mean a well-disciplined soldier, but what it does mean is that a soldier who is trained brutally will fight brutally — and the North Koreans have numbers of personnel and equipment unlike anything we've faced since Vietnam, and probably since the Korean War. Having American high tech weapons and a radio and GPS to call in American air strikes is great, but if you have a hundred half-crazed Norks running at you who (unlike most Iraqis) have been trained to aim their rifles well, what may count more than anything else is raw numbers.
I understand that the North Korean dictatorship is not Nazi Germany. I also understand, after listening to many things my father-in-law told me about fighting as a South Korean soldier in the Korean War, just how vicious the North Korean Communists were. The civilians in my family have told me what it was like to have Communists enter their village and do the things Communists do.
But let's drop all that. Let's say the North Koreans attack, we don't send one single American soldier over there, and the South Koreans handle it all themselves after President Obama turns tail and orders all our military out as fast as they can flee.
Imagine the economic crisis. Korea is not what it was in 1950. South Korea is one of the world's larger economies, and it's a huge supplier of electronics not just to the United States but to the rest of the world.
The nation is quite affluent by world standards, even those of Europe. According to the CIA World Factbook, South Korea ranked just behind Japan in per-capita GDP, not far behind Canada, France, the UK, Germany and most of the Scandinavian countries. It is somewhat ahead of Israel, Spain, and Italy, and considerably ahead of a number of Eastern European countries such as the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, and the Baltic countries. In raw economic size, South Korea is the world's 12th largest economy, behind the United States, China, India, Japan, Germany, Russia, Brazil, the UK, France, India, and Mexico, but ahead of Spain, Canada, Indonesia, and all the rest of Europe.
So even in the best of situations with an entirely South Korean response that quickly knocks out North Korea in a few weeks or months, we're going to have one of the world's major industrialized economies basically eliminated as a consumer of American goods and as a producer of civilian goods for the rest of the world. North Korea will be far more difficult to reintegrate into a capitalist system than East Germany ever was, and there will be massive destruction of factories and cities on both sides of the border, with hundreds of thousands dead, millions displaced, and utter chaos for years.
Yes, the North Koreans are literally starving. Their equipment is falling apart. It's no match for top-scale American technology or South Korean technology, and many more of their soldiers will die.
But the battle will still be devastating to the civilian economy. Look what knocking out only two buildings of the World Trade Center and adjacent structures did to New York City's economy, and then imagine the consequences of hundreds of 1960s-era artillery shells landing on Seoul.
Economically, it doesn't make much difference if the North Korean military is wiped off the map if Seoul and Inchon are in flames from a major artillery barrage, with missiles hitting points farther south such as Taegu and maybe the industrial heartland of Pusan, with ten million people or more internally displaced. And that's all assuming none of the North Korean longer-range missiles manage to hit Tokyo or somewhere else in Japan.
Mutually assured destruction presumes that both parties are sane and rational, and don't want to see themselves destroyed. I'm not convinced we're dealing with rational people in North Korea, and they are militarily capable of doing tremendous damage.
I have no doubt that we will win a second Korean War if the Chinese don't intervene — although we would have won the first Korean War without the Chinese, too. More important, I have very little doubt that the South Koreans can take care of themselves if the United States government won't act.
But what will that do to the world economy? We have not had a full-scale war in an industrialized nation since the end of World War II, and having exported much of our manufacturing capacity to China, Korea, Japan, and Indonesia, I'm not naive about the damage that the loss of even South Korea manufacturing capacity and markets will do to our economy — and that's assuming China doesn't decide to do something to shut down our manufacturing plants in China or wreck the American economy through some other tactic.
Bottom line: North Korea is a serious threat. Yes, we'll win, but at what cost?
This saves a lot of disappointment on the Nork's part, and of course with every sixth satellite you get free eggroll...
> .... Zero certainly isnt going to nuke anybody.
I think Zero would happily nuke North Korea or the right Muslim terror state given the right circumstances. He’d be a hero to middle America for his strong stand. The media would back him. His popularity would soar....
The man is a friend of Marxism, but he’s no friend of some other tyrant’s Marxist state. He’d be happy to dump on some unpopular, small, weak, thuggish nation if it’d serve his domestic political interests.
A very bad time to have BO as POTUS!
They would attack South Korea anyways, regardless. DPRK would Scud missile US bases in South Korea. And then they would almost simultaneously Scud or Nodong US bases in Japan as well. Probably with chems and bios. By that factor alone both S Korea and Japan would become immediate war parties. Whereupon China would also enter. It would not be that easily delinkeable as you suggest. In fact oddly enough it would mean an automatic abrogation of the 1953 Armistace agreement and would defecto be a resumption of hostilities of the DPRK and PRC vs The United Nations. Plus S. Korea and Japan though they were not original 1953 signatories. We are still technically at war with North Korea. This would just suspend the ceasefire.
Has anyone ever told you that you ramble too much?
Your position is that of the typical liberal coward.
North Korea has to be spanked.
This means one thing, and one thing only:
NK realizes if they launch, they may be intercepted.
No more than that.
Standard, Pegasus, or a rail gun could be equally effective.
Paging USS Ticonderoga, USS Ticonderoga, please.
Now, now, Tiger. How would that look on our Nobel laureate's resume? Although it would get him, within about 48 hours, a third of the way closer to his goal of being the first "nuclear-free" President of this century. (The last one was Herbert Hoover, or arguably FDR -- it would be a judgment call.)
And we wouldn't have to worry about Chinese hackers and Chinese dumping any more.
We cancelled it after they announced the launch.
North Korea doesn’t have a blue water Navy. All our Navy has to do is stay out of their operating range.
Our range will be great enough to deal with the problem, if needed. And the Norks will be too far away to do anything. Well, anything to us... excepting our USFK forces.
China is the puppet master in everything that North Korea does. China uses North Korea to gain negotiating leverage against U.S. allies, while preserving a degree of deniability. The U.S. should eliminate this deniability. U.S. policy should be to treat any North Korean action as an action of China, as China's responsibility. For example, if North Korea uses chemical weapons against South Korea, then the U.S. will act as if China had used chemical weapons against South Korea. The U.S. should state this policy publicly so that all concerned, including China and the U.N., for example, are aware. There are International Law problems with ignoring a sovereign entity, North Korea, but this is a necessary step.
North Korea has over 10,000 prepositioned artillery pieces ready to fire on Seoul in less than 5 minutes. And in case you’re wondering about a pre-emptive strike on them... they are all built into mountain/hillsides, protected from aerial strikes.
60+ years gave them a lot of time to construct protection for their first-strike capabilities.
If the balloon went up, Seoul would be completely destroyed in the first 10 minutes of the war. And half of the entire population of South Korea lives there... or in it’s suburbs.
That’s 26 million out of approximately 52 million South Koreans.
There’s no good options with North Korea except possibly an assassination... or perhaps bribing the top, non-Kim family, military members to revolt.
My concern is there are people who are seriously underestimating the damage North Korea can do. We need to count the cost before acting.
You may consider facts to be rambling. Your choice.
In analyzing any military threat, we need to take into account both capabilities and intent. Intent is extremely difficult know in what is one of the most reclusive and notoriously unpredictable states in the entire world, but we do know they have the capability to do tremendous damage.
Anyone who has spent very much time watching North Korea knows they routinely yell and scream and threaten. Yeah, I get that point.
Hitler also liked to yell and scream and threaten, most of Europe didn't take him seriously, and when he proceeded to do precisely what he had said years before he planned to do, lots of people were shocked that he actually meant what he said.
Granted, North Korea does not have the capability today of launching a German-style blitzkrieg, largely because of a much stronger South Korean military than what existed in the 1950s. I realize they can't do today what they did in the Korean War by overrunning most of South Korea before the United States could respond.
What they are capable of doing is inflicting massive damage to South Korea via artillery, even with their outdated weapon systems, and with their missiles they have a good chance of being able to strike American military targets in Japan. The result of even a fairly limited attack on South Korean industrial targets and cities would be massive damage to South Korea and major damage to the world economy. The prospect of a successful missile strike not just on American military targets in Japan but also on Tokyo is too awful to contemplate.
What scares me about North Korea is that in the past, we could influence them to some extent through China, though China always downplayed how much influence they had over Pyongyang. At this point the new North Korean dictator seems to be ignoring China, and seems to be engaged in an effort to assert control over his own generals.
In a situation like this, all bets are off.
My hope is that the North Koreans will do something that annoys the Chinese so much that they decide not just to spank the North Koreans but to remove the North Korean leadership. The Chinese are probably the only ones capable of doing that without a full-scale war, and considering that they have an heir-apparent scion of the Kim dynasty sitting in Macao, it wouldn't surprise me if they have contingency plans for precisely that purpose.
“the satellite will never get off the ground, so why is he stressing about it.”
I will do you one better. Don’t launch and say that you did and the running dog imperialists technology was too antiquated to see it.
I am sure Hillary and the State Department with the aid of the media report this.
“Most Emergency Action Messages are drills for nuking North Korea. The contingency plans are for a massive strike of every city and every military installation simultaneously. Very, very little of North Korea would remain.”
I slightly disagree — only Pyongyang and 3 or 4 key ports need to be taken out....
“If I were the American president I would go ahead and intercept it.”
With what? AEGIS? Physics problems.
Airborne Laser (ABL) has been put on the shelf.
I agree. The Kims have already destroyed the rest
He does realize that if he does something really stupid, Pyongyang could be turned into a large glass bowl...right?
He does realize that if he does something really stupid, Pyongyang could be turned into a large glass bowl...right?........................................... That would be bad, where would all the massive parades go? Especially all those sexy female soldiers? Maybe they’ll march to China where they could be put to use?
The range of the Sang-O class submarine is 1500 nautical miles. That puts all of Japan and Okinawa in easy range. Likewise, ships that would fire anti-missiles would most likely be in range of those submarines.
And in addition to carrying wake homing torpedoes, they are also capable of laying mines in some very busy sea lanes.
Remember that these are the people who sank the Cheonan, so they have very little hesitation about attacking us, especially while China is more than willing to support them.
I hope American teens reading “The Hunger Games” see the parallel between the world of the Hunger Games and any totalitarian communist country in the world today. The Capitol: the city where the “elite” rulers and a fawning populace live: well fed, decadent, silly people who live for entertainment and support the “President”,and the harshly evil oppressor President and his “Peacekeepers”, and in contrast the Districts: oppressed/enslaved areas of the country that earlier rebelled and now must work as impoverished half starved slave labor in mines, farms, etc to supply the Capitol.
I have no idea if the majority of teens do get it, or if it’s just the latest fad to them with romance and an exciting story. I hope some see that it may be our future here if we don’t turn this country around.
“Not only do these weapons enhance North Korea’s offensive capabilities, but this chemical capability could deter South Korea or the United States from using chemicals during hostilities.”
It is worse than that. The U.S. no longer has a “chemical” capability. All our capabilities have been destroyed, except for some old stuff - no longer usable - waiting to be destroyed. The U.S. took a “no use ever” policy in the late 90s. U.S. policy is that we will never use chemical or biological weapons...even in retaliation. Actually, Bio weapons have been off the table since President Nixon.
We have maintained (and continue to improve) a good “protective & detective” capability against Chem/Bio, but I’m not sure it could withstand a prolonged use of such weapons without us eventually having to withdraw or face high casualties. We would have to resort to the use of Nuclear weapons. I’m not sure that the current administration has the will to use them IF necessary. Also, how could we use nukes on North Korea without provoking the Chinese?
I fear that in our current state of readiness (force structure) that the Chinese could overrun us in South Korea without breaking a sweat.