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Prayers urgently Requested! F-18 Crashed into Apt Complex in VA Beach
Vanity | 04/06/12 | pgkdan

Posted on 04/06/2012 9:53:59 AM PDT by pgkdan

No other details as yet. Just reported as an emergency blurb on local radio. Prayers requested for all affected!

A Navy F-18 out of NAS Oceana has crashed into an apartment comp0lex in Virginia Beach VA at the intersection of Birdneck Rd and I 264.


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: f18; jetcrash; nasoceana; navair; planecrash; usnavy; vabeach; virginia
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To: wolfman23601

Thanks for posting that. I was going to say something to exactly that effect. [I’m the very proud wife of a Machinist, and I wouldn’t have been quite as eloquent or kind as you... LOL]


151 posted on 04/06/2012 5:19:05 PM PDT by LibertyRocks
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To: pgkdan

From my local news source....

“JET CRASH UPDATE: Officials Say Some Apartment Residents Still Missing”

Not good....


152 posted on 04/06/2012 5:25:25 PM PDT by LUV W (Reserved for a hero........)
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To: cva66snipe

During college (71-76) I worked at the Ocean View Fishing Pier and after graduation I worked for the Hembree family that owned that very Best Western along with 4 other motels along the strip. Small world, huh? I spent a lot of time down at Little Creek when I dated a guy who docked his headboat there.

Yeah, the City of Norfolk finally figured out what a gold mine that beach was, and everything changed once they did. I was glad that I had moved away by then so I didn’t have to see it.


153 posted on 04/06/2012 5:55:28 PM PDT by Grandma Pam
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To: cva66snipe
Only one place I went still looked the same and that was Highway 17 down in The Swamp. That drive was one of my favorite get out of Norfolk places to go when I couldn't get home on the weekends.

I love the Outer Banks. When we lived in VB we'd go down quite often. We have friends who have a nice place in Duck right on the beach. There was a little "family" of wild horses who hung around there. Always a joy to see.

154 posted on 04/06/2012 5:59:12 PM PDT by smoothsailing
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To: pgkdan
I also agree with you about dispersing assets. It's scary to think that all of the Atlantic Fleet's carriers are in one port. It doesn't make sense. But if you talk about moving a carrier group out of Norfolk you're liable to get tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

Pier 10 at N.O.B. should have never been built. It's not wind protected like 12 & 7. I saw a storm in about 78 that put have of the ships at N.O.B. out in the river channel torn from the piers.

N.O.B. NORVA up till the mid too late 80's was a three carrier berth at N.O.B. I've seen a picture of 5 there at once after pier 10 was built. That is a bad case of the Stupids on the part of The Pentagon who had them there all at the same time. Mayport is a carrier port and was a carrier home port for many years. None are home ported there now and that doesn't make any sense at all. Mayport does have two carrier berths though.

155 posted on 04/06/2012 6:02:33 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Grandma Pam
During college (71-76) I worked at the Ocean View Fishing Pier and after graduation I worked for the Hembree family that owned that very Best Western along with 4 other motels along the strip. Small world, huh? I spent a lot of time down at Little Creek when I dated a guy who docked his headboat there.

When I came back from my 77 cruise the old amusement park in Ocean View was gone. Me and a few buddies used to walk from Pier 12 to Ocean View to the Pizza place that was next to the amusement park. Back then there was nothing outside either the main gate on Hampton BLVD or Ocean View. If you wanted fast food it was a bus ride to Military Highway. I walked to there a few times also. LOL

When I went back in 2002 anything a person could want was outside the main gate. I did manage too locate enough land marks I remembered to where I went from the Main Gate on Hampton Bld with the cut across roads back over to Ocean View. There also wasn't an interstate by-pass in the 70's either LOL.

156 posted on 04/06/2012 6:44:32 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: pgkdan

Too horrific to contemplate!


157 posted on 04/06/2012 7:42:25 PM PDT by Joya
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To: LUV W

Well LUV it is a Holiday week-end and since an elderly community perhaps they are away visitng with family members...let’s hope so.


158 posted on 04/06/2012 8:48:22 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww

I hope so, too. I haven’t heard any more about it tonight....


159 posted on 04/06/2012 8:51:03 PM PDT by LUV W (Reserved for a hero........)
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To: metmom

No, it’s a personal decision that each pilot has to make. They’re not obligated to stay with a jet that’s going down. Most pilots eject below the flight manual minimum altitude in an effort to regain control. In fact, a lot of them eject out of the ejection seat performance envelope.
If the plane can be at least partially controlled and pointed in a safe direction, a pilot will do that. They’re trained for that. But a pilot is not doing a service to anybody by riding it in. If they can’t get it under control by the time they reach minimum ejection altitude, that last few thousand feet isn’t going to make a difference, especially in a situation like today’s. The jet was low and slow with an engine out (and who knows what other problems?). It was pretty well written in stone where that jet was going to hit. In that flight regime, the engines and control surfaces just don’t have enough authority to affect the flight path much.

I find it pretty insulting to suggest that the aircrew wasn’t doing their job and going against their training by not riding the jet into the fireball. They did everything they could before they punched out.


160 posted on 04/06/2012 10:43:03 PM PDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity (Liberalism is a social disease.)
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To: cva66snipe

The rationale for dispersing assets is so that you can’t wipe out an entire military capability with a single attack. It’s just as valid today as it was during the Cold War. The current mantra of consolidating assets to save money is downright suicidal. Do you want al Qaida to be able to shut down the entire Air Force with an attack on a single building? The senior leaders have dropped deep into denial. We’re 90% back to the pre-9/11 “it can’t happen to us” mentality.

(And it really pisses me off when even pro-military press and entertainment refer to Cold War “paranoia”. When the Russians are stating publicly, “Just wait America, just wait. You WILL be ours. Maybe not today, but it WILL happen.” The Chinese and al Qaida are saying the same thing today, and our leaders are choosing to pretend otherwise.)


161 posted on 04/06/2012 10:58:33 PM PDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity (Liberalism is a social disease.)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
Cold War we kept a whole lot more ships deployed which made a Pearl Harbor type damage to the fleet as a whole more unlikely. Now it is possible under the right conditions to take out nearly half the USN fleet. USN kept a two carrier presence in the MED Sea operations area. Even three carriers in port at Norfolk at the base was an exception and not the rule.

One thing that changed under Reagan Navy wise I don't agree with was using the Suez canal for carriers again. Even when the Iranian hostage crisis broke out in 79 the JFK went around the Horn to get to the Persian Gulf. The first one too transit Suez since the 1960's was America in 1981.

It seems as well the safety in numbers policy got abandoned somewhere along the way resulting in fleet being over a day out from the COLE when it was attacked in Yemen. Cole should have fueled at sea. Next is the shipyard in the UAE. Anyone think it was just beginners luck Cole got hit where it would go dead in the water?

Hampton Roads though has been a disaster waiting to happen for several decades. The base closures and consolidations into one general area have only made matters worse risk wise. For those Freepers living there this is not to knock your home turf. It is simply the reality of it. You can see the carrier fleet from Hampton Roads I-64 Bridge and Portsmouth Yard from the by-pass I'm pretty certain. Most of the east coast fleet and Naval aviation assets are in a 10-15 miles circle. That policy needs to change fast.

162 posted on 04/07/2012 12:07:52 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

From what I’m reading the pilots {trainer and instructor} rode it out as long as possible and were dumping fuel as well on the way down. It would have had to have been a near ground jetison because they landed near the complex. If they hadn’t dumped the fuel the explosion & fire would have taken out several blocks with a likely tripple digit fatality count. From reading this article the cut it about as close as you can get. http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/apr/06/navy-jet-crashes-in-virginia-2-pilots-eject/ It sounds like the three explosions were the jetison, impact, and explosion, of what obviously little fuel remained. It could have been a lot worse outcome.


163 posted on 04/07/2012 12:19:25 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Grandma Pam

Lord forgive me but my first thought after about the crash was that Obama would use it as an excuse to close yet another base.

Lord look over those who are hurt, especially the pilots who will hold guilt from this accident for their entire lives.


164 posted on 04/07/2012 3:33:08 AM PDT by Brytani (Liberals - destroying America since 1776)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
I find it pretty insulting to suggest that the aircrew wasn’t doing their job and going against their training by not riding the jet into the fireball. They did everything they could before they punched out.

Well, tell it to those who are suggesting that.

165 posted on 04/07/2012 5:19:15 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: caww

Calling me an idiot is not only disrespectful and totally uncalled for, but indicates a serious lack of formal education and the inability to engage in intelligent discorse.


166 posted on 04/07/2012 6:54:49 AM PDT by IbJensen (We now have a government requiring citizens prove they are insured but not that they are citizens.)
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To: metmom

You said it, so you need to own it.


167 posted on 04/07/2012 7:38:46 AM PDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity (Liberalism is a social disease.)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

SAID what?

I asked a question because I didn’t know something.


168 posted on 04/07/2012 8:39:59 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: pgkdan

If you search Google Maps for 36.851255,-75.992825 and use the satellite view, you can see the middle of the courtyard where the plane ended up. Amazing.


169 posted on 04/07/2012 9:31:57 AM PDT by USMCPOP (Father of LCpl. Karl Linn, KIA 1/26/2005 Al Haqlaniyah, Iraq)
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To: All

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0407/Virginia-Beach-Navy-jet-crash-No-loss-of-life-in-Good-Friday-miracle

It appears that no one has died. Praise the Almighty!


170 posted on 04/07/2012 9:58:30 AM PDT by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: LUV W

They have updated that info today and the fire chief says he believes he has talked to everyone at the complex. No fatalities or serious injuries. Thats a Good Frday Miracle.


171 posted on 04/07/2012 10:47:42 AM PDT by pgkdan (Rick Santorum 2012. Conservative's last, best chance!)
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To: pgkdan
They have updated that info today and the fire chief says he believes he has talked to everyone at the complex. No fatalities or serious injuries. Thats a Good Frday Miracle.

It sure is.

Thank God!!!!

172 posted on 04/07/2012 11:52:13 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: wolfman23601

It seems there was a chance there would be no loss of life and that chance became a reality.

Thank God!


173 posted on 04/07/2012 11:52:13 AM PDT by jazusamo (Character assassination is just another form of voter fraud: Thomas Sowell)
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To: IbJensen
Calling me an idiot is not only disrespectful and totally uncalled for, but indicates a serious lack of formal education and the inability to engage in intelligent discorse.

You should have considered such with the derogatory remark you made, concerning the pilots decision to eject, in the first place.......

Your remark as follows:

"Not a good, nor an honored way, to ditch your fighter plane!"........103 posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 12:27:14 PM by IbJensen

Everything thereafter was in response to that statement and rightfully so....which had nothing to do with ones education, (not even a nice try), nor "engaging in intelligent discourse" and zip-zero evidence it was no more than an unjustified, premature, remark against the pilot.

Your statement ,and that without knowing the situation or the facts of...remains the same...it was "idiotic"...and gave zip zero evidence of any desire for "intelligent discussion" as you now claim in order to excuse your remark....and attempting to do so is deceptive at best.

Claiming further , after the fact,, to be a Pilot yourself and serving or not in Korea does not excuse the remark...in fact if true, you should have known better than to jump to the conclusion you gave in that remark.

174 posted on 04/07/2012 12:11:57 PM PDT by caww
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To: IbJensen
Calling me an idiot is not only disrespectful and totally uncalled for, but indicates a serious lack of formal education and the inability to engage in intelligent discorse.

You should have considered such with the derogatory remark you made, concerning the pilots decision to eject, in the first place.......

Your remark as follows:

"Not a good, nor an honored way, to ditch your fighter plane!"........103 posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 12:27:14 PM by IbJensen

Everything thereafter was in response to that statement and rightfully so....which had nothing to do with ones education, (not even a nice try), nor "engaging in intelligent discourse" and zip-zero evidence it was no more than an unjustified, premature, remark against the pilot.

Your statement ,and that without knowing the situation or the facts of...remains the same...it was "idiotic"...and gave zip zero evidence of any desire for "intelligent discussion" as you now claim in order to excuse your remark....and attempting to do so is deceptive at best.

Claiming further , after the fact,, to be a Pilot yourself and serving or not in Korea does not excuse the remark...in fact if true, you should have known better than to jump to the conclusion you gave in that remark.

175 posted on 04/07/2012 12:12:31 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
Do what I did before I posted the first comment. Have a few martinis. It helps forget the horror of war and the horror of the incredible mess of a man who currently occupies the White Hut and the nation he has ruined, for the next few decades at least.

We could go on and on, I suppose, and continue to parse the words of an old man (me) until we get blue in the face and have to be resuscitated, but what's the use? Since this is the hill on which I don't wish to die, I must do something that's against my oath: surrender.

Believe me, whoever you are, intelligent discussion is not what we have both regurgitated on this site. Rather we have engaged in picayune sophomoric twaddle.

No. Go to Church, grab your Easter basket and eat until you get a tummy ache.

176 posted on 04/08/2012 5:21:29 AM PDT by IbJensen (We now have a government requiring citizens prove they are insured but not that they are citizens.)
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To: cva66snipe

there will never be the numbers of ships to justify all
the bases from WW2 that were closed during BRAC nor the
need for 10M man armies. If the war gets to all-out destruction-of-enemy mode, the nukes will fly and Fun City
will look as if from Planet of the Apes.


177 posted on 04/08/2012 2:35:46 PM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: RitchieAprile
How many active duty total all services do you think we had at the height of the Reagan years lets say in 1987? It wasn't anywhere 10 million. It was 2,174,000. How many active duty military today? Active Military: 1,477,896 [2011]. A downgrade of almost 700,000. The result of that? For over 20 years the troops we have now have been over deployed and over extended. Troops today in some units are seeing more combat time {5- one year long deployments into Iraq, Afghanastan, wherever} than any time in U.S. military history.

BTW we didn't have 10M active even in WW2. The highest it got in WW2 was 8.7M in 1941. Granted we do not need that many now with todays technology. But we do not have enough manpower now to properly man our military either. The cuts were way too deep.

As for ships? If you want to be able too deploy 100 at any given time you best have 400 ships. That is still below Reagan's 595. Anything less {and we are at 285 now as of 2011} is a disaster in the making. I don't care if it's nuclear propulsion submarines, carriers, cruisers, or destroyers the facts of needed maintenance and training times still apply. No ship can deploy indefinitely not a one. Your aircraft in the air force I'm betting about the same ratio applies for maintenance and training.

Which do you really thinks China wants? To nuke us and be unable to use our labor and resources, or march in and take over the nation and all resources? Only the radical fanatics like rouge Islamic nations now pose the nuke threat.

Our governments number one Constitutional duty is defense. It makes no sense to short defense.

178 posted on 04/08/2012 8:57:43 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

Armed Forces Strength: 1945 (from US DoD)

Army:8,266,373
Navy:3,319,586
AAF:469,925

Total 12,055,884


179 posted on 04/09/2012 8:15:08 AM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: RitchieAprile
I realize I got the WW2 numbers wrong. But the fact is our military is undermanned and under equipped. Placing the majority of Naval assets in Norfolk Virginia is insanity. Granted some bases needed closing, some ships needed to go. But Poppy's term had cuts and even deployment polices then destroyed a carrier. Next came Slick Willies cuts six years of them under a GOP congress. BTW we are still at 1996 ETS. Then came W who decided to cut yet more and of course Obama who is cutting yet more. All this time we are deploying into combat responding to every little flare up & had at least a two nations war going as well.

We can not keep up the pace with what we have something is going to have to give. We need to rescind at least half the cuts in all services to be reasonably functional.

180 posted on 04/09/2012 9:20:23 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: IbJensen
Since this is the hill on which I don't wish to die, I must do something that's against my oath: surrender.

Oh, no, sweetheart, you don't get off so easy. You lay claim to flying fighter aircraft during the Korean War, so you can answer a simple question generated by a simple scenario: The port engine of your fighter aircraft ate itself on takeoff (end of the runway) and you don't have enough altitude nor airspeed to make it to the ocean so you can properly "ditch" your dying plane without hitting an apartment complex that is less than two miles from the end of the runway.

So, Chuck Yeager, what do you do?

Believe me, whoever you are, intelligent discussion is not what we have both regurgitated on this site. Rather we have engaged in picayune sophomoric twaddle.

And you, sir, are full of manure.
181 posted on 04/09/2012 11:49:21 AM PDT by wasp69 (space for rent)
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To: wasp69

I’m not your sweetheart, but I do sense it is you that is full of manure.

Like the case fabricated by race-bating egocentrics in regard to the Zimmerman fiasco you are like a dog with a bone. That being said neither of us were there and it would seem to me that something could have been done. You had to be there; I had to be there, but without the ability to make a quick decision we won’t know if that was, indeed, possible.


182 posted on 04/10/2012 4:38:24 AM PDT by IbJensen (We now have a government requiring citizens prove they are insured but not that they are citizens.)
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To: IbJensen
That being said neither of us were there and it would seem to me that something could have been done. You had to be there; I had to be there, but without the ability to make a quick decision we won’t know if that was, indeed, possible.

Oh, no, it doesn't work that way. You waded into this, waving your e-wang, and have been called on your BS. While I have not flown a fighter aircraft, I do know a bit about gas turbine engines and what makes them go "pop-pop-pop" and trail smoke. I also know that exhaust manifold positions are directly related to how much fuel you're trying to shove through them. I am also a bit familiar with casualty control procedures as they apply to gas turbine engines.

You have held up the mantle of jet aircraft fighter pilot in Korea and as such I would think you might be able to explain, with some detail and authority, what exactly it was that you were trained to do in the event of catastrophic engine failure, at takeoff, over a populated area.

Surely someone with your breadth of experience and knowledge can tell us exactly why it is you feel this pilot screwed up so badly.

I’m not your sweetheart, but I do sense it is you that is full of manure.

You were a jet jock but you can't even answer a simple question about what procedures you were taught in the event of catastrophic engine failure over a populated area? That's pathetic, sugar, and it makes me think "poser" more than anything else.
183 posted on 04/12/2012 1:07:46 PM PDT by wasp69 (space for rent)
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To: wasp69

Unlike you, Wanker, I have important matters to attend to. I made a very short comment and you went bananas on me. Fortunately losing an engine upon takeoff for me would have been a first.

If an engine fails upon take off, you use all the power available from the live engine. Climb performance reduces by nearly 80%. We must make full use of the live engine in the right way.

Engine failure after takeoff (EFATO) is therefore the worst moment for an engine failure to occur since you’re slow, flaps and gear may be still down, flight controls are still a bit sloppy. When an EFATO occurs, you should first counteract the yaw with rudder, and then bank to a maximum of 5 degrees to the live engine. This is how you get the most out of the live engine. When climbing, cruising, descending or on approach, just the rudder will be sufficient and no bank is required. After the failure, keep an eye on your ammeter, since you’ve lost one alternator. Same applies to your vacuum pumps when flying in IMC; you’ve only got one left.

The details of this particular crash will remain rather sketchy for weeks, perhaps even months, but there is always something one can do in the event of ditching.


184 posted on 04/13/2012 7:29:55 AM PDT by IbJensen (We now have a government requiring citizens prove they are insured but not that they are citizens.)
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To: IbJensen
I made a very short comment and you went bananas on me.

No, you made a very stupid comment and I asked for your experience and perspective to second guess the pilot in the seat from behind your keyboard.

Fortunately losing an engine upon takeoff for me would have been a first.

Fortunately, for you. However, that does precious little to bolster any credibility to your initial statement.

If an engine fails upon take off, you use all the power available from the live engine. Climb performance reduces by nearly 80%. We must make full use of the live engine in the right way.

Exactly what the pilot did as evidenced in photos of the exhaust nozzle configurations.

Engine failure after takeoff (EFATO) is therefore the worst moment for an engine failure to occur since you’re slow, flaps and gear may be still down, flight controls are still a bit sloppy. When an EFATO occurs, you should first counteract the yaw with rudder, and then bank to a maximum of 5 degrees to the live engine. This is how you get the most out of the live engine. When climbing, cruising, descending or on approach, just the rudder will be sufficient and no bank is required.

Fantastic! Now, what about that small matter of a full load of JP-5 or 8 that you have sitting underneath you? Do you dump it? What did the Air Force/Navy teach you to do?

After the failure, keep an eye on your ammeter, since you’ve lost one alternator. Same applies to your vacuum pumps when flying in IMC; you’ve only got one left.

Alternator? Vacuum pumps? Exactly what kind of jet aircraft did you fly for our country?

The details of this particular crash will remain rather sketchy for weeks, perhaps even months

The details will, but the circumstances won't: Catastrophic engine failure at takeoff, full load of fuel, heavy population area between you and the ocean, not enough altitude or airspeed to make it to open water.

but there is always something one can do in the event of ditching.

Like what?
185 posted on 04/19/2012 11:37:28 AM PDT by wasp69 (space for rent)
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To: wasp69

How’s that government job working out for you?

You are babbling and calling my comments stupid. Apparently you consider yourself an aeronautical engineer who has much more evidence than what was published.

I am through discoursing with you as you have only one aim which is to discredit me and my record as a veteran who merely made an observation.


186 posted on 04/19/2012 6:13:30 PM PDT by IbJensen (We now have a government requiring citizens prove they are insured but not that they are citizens.)
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