Skip to comments.Cuomo whacks Pataki gun law (CoBis aka ballistic fingerprinting!)
Posted on 04/13/2012 4:20:49 PM PDT by neverdem
With virtually no public notice or legislative debate, a centerpiece of ex-Gov. George Patakis controversial multimillion-dollar anti-gun-crime program was shot dead Friday by Gov. Cuomos new state budget.
The budget killed off the so-called CoBis, or Combined Ballistics Identification System, which was rolled out with much fanfare by Pataki in 2000 in what was widely seen as an attempt by the politically ambitious Republican moderate to appeal to anti-gun Democrats nationally, possibly for a future presidential run.
Pataki claimed CoBis would use state-of-the-art technology to establish a DNA database for handguns by requiring manufacturers of new semiautomatic pistols to file spent cartridge shells with the State Police, so that their markings could be kept in a traceable registry and compared to any found at crime scenes.
Many Democrats praised the program, and even then-First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, running for the US Senate in New York, praised Pataki for showing real leadership in proposing a state-based ballistics program . . . something that needs to be done on a national level.
Trouble is, the Pataki program NEVER worked. Despite the hundreds of thousands of spent shells submitted, not one criminal was ever captured using the extensive and costly-to-maintain database, state officials concede.
We are ending a program that doesnt solve crimes or make our streets safe, said Cuomo spokesman Josh Vlasto.
Thats what we said would happen from the start, crowed Tom King, president of the New York Rifle and Pistol Association and a National Rifle Association board member. I think Andrew Cuomo is a very intelligent guy who didnt want...
While the Democrats eventually decided overwhelmingly to back the spending plan, there was a bigger issue involved continuing fury over Cuomos decision to sign the controversial legislative-redistricting plan that gerrymandered Senate lines heavily in the GOPs favor...
(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...
Too bad for them that ballistic fingerprinting and ballistics overall don’t work. And it’s provable. One day it’s going to be proven in court and ballistic evidence is going to no longer be the be all end all that the anti’s dream of.
surely Andy Cuommunist has something a bit more “effective” in mind.
Any political official who votes anti-2A should lose their armed security.
But fired-bullet striations from the rifling in the barrel go back as far as Sacco and Vanzetti. I've seen the photos of the murder bullets and the test bullets fired from Sacco's pistol. I also recall some comparison of the lots of cartridges from the manufacturing process.
Why does that fairly time-tested protocol not work?
The lunacy in this law was in believing that a spent shell database could ID the weapon (and subsequently the owner) by matching a shell casing found at a crime scene.
Problem is only newly manufactured and legally registerd guns were in the database, and the characteristic markings left on a spent shell casing, (firing pin impression, extractor and ejector marks, chamber imperfections) are only useful when matching a specific gun to a known shell casing, and only if the gun wasn’t fired very much between the time the spent shell was found and the gun was found.
Shooting hundreds or thousands of rounds (a typical yearly tally by any avid shooter) changes those registered markings over time to the point that the database is useless.
Furthermore, most criminals don’t purchase their firearms legally, submit test shell casings, and legally register their firearms with the state of New York.
Other than that, it was a perfect plan.
Not to mention that an enteprising criminal could further muddy the waters by salting the crime scene with other spent shells. We sweep up a boatload of them (not to be confused with the boatloads of money that Kagan thins the government gives us) at the shooting range on any given day.
What makes you think that being presented with irrefutable evidence of the failure of their ideas will change how liberals think one bit? I've never seen it. Their response is that what failed simply wasn't tried hard enough or funded enough.
“ballistic striations” I was thinkig the same thing. Messing around with firing pins mean higher prices and a complicated manufacturing process eliminated with a file or a replaced pin.
Ever see a button for making grooves in a barrel? It’s not a one use tool. It’s used on hundreds of barrels before it must be replaced. Due to the nature of the way it’s used, the exact same tool marks will be on every barrel made with that button. That means that before it wears out to the point of needing replacing, there can be one hundred, two hundred or more barrels that have identical marks and leave identical marks on a bullet. The only difference will be the depth of the marks which will be in fractions of a thousandth of an inch between examples.
Cut rifling is a bit different in that the hook used to make the cuts may be replaced not only from barrel to barrel but from groove to groove. But, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is.
On cartridge cases, yes, there will be slightly different marks in the chamber but that is not any kind of proof at all given that the cartridge case may have marks from other sources on it and every time that a round is chambered and fired, the wear will slightly alter the “fingerprint” on the round. This has been proven already and it’s the reason Virginia did not move forward with a ballistic fingerprint database in 2000. We got it shot down based upon these facts.
In production firearms, you’ll have dozens of machines if not more rifling barrels to meet the demand. Pull a dozen barrels off the same button rifle machine and you won’t be able to positively separate samples fired from the various barrels by ballistic scrutiny.
Once it’s been debunked in court, it’ll no longer be a viable or allowable piece of evidence for prosecution.
FReepmail me if you want on or off my New York ping list.
If you go to the microstamping story, there are two interesting stories in the right sidebar. The NRA has donated about $217,000 to the NY GOP in the state senate since 2003. They gave a nice chunk prior to the GOP retaking the senate in 2010. I tried posting that story about 10 times. Each time I had to reboot the computer. I didn't read the other story, just the title which said in effect that we're going to have two elections because of the state senate.
I'll be happy to link those stories if they get posted, and somebody lets me know.
Because you can alter the rifling in the barrel by simply firing a lot of ammo or using valve grinding compound and a cleaning patch.
Ballistics only work if the gun in question is seized soon after the crime is committed, otherwise they can be altered and render any bullets or shell casings found at the scene useless for identity.
The striations and such only apply to a wheel gun.
Anything of a more recent design has service parts available that can replace anything incriminating on a particular weapon.
This is slight of hand. Now they are calling for micro-stamping. They are merely shifting the costs of yet another useless boondoggle onto gun manufacturers and gunowners.
But all that means is that the program was a success! It didn’t stop crime, so it opens the door for more gun laws. It’s also costly and hard to maintain! Win/win! What’s their problem? Do they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater?!/s
“Blue Glasers” and other frangible and/or multiple-pellet cartridges cannot be traced as their is no metallic bullet or full metal jacket that can be marked by lands and grooves in any firearm (like a shotgun)
“Glasers” do not go through walls or drywall - and do maximum damage to any bad actor(s) that annoys you seriously
A revolver does not auto-eject the spent cartridge cases that would have the metallic primers a firing pin of any firearm would contact and leave tool marks
Any semi-auto or full-auto can be fitted in seconds with a cartridge case catcher to save the cases for reloading or stop the need for “policing up your brass” as they used to say at Fort Jackson and Fort Benning
There are also triggered electronic firing systems now for hunting longarms and handguns that eliminate any need for a primer (and eliminates trigger pull - giving a better and more accurate shot and instant ignition of cartridge propellents)
There are also caseless ammo which saves weight and eliminates the need (and time) have a complex ejection system
- Therefore - There are already legal firearms, ammunition, and systems that
Simple modern cap & ball (percussion) readily available solid propellants have a hollow center core and are easily hand-fitted with a primer - They can be used in revolvers and longarms - in semi-auto pistols it would eliminated the need for ejection spent cartridge cases
I can fabricate a non-metallic caseless primer (with attached projectile - solid or bonded mini-shot) in a few seconds (It burns off with the sold propellant) - It creates a dandy “Mini-Howitzer” for fun and games
Check Remington for the electronic primerless triggering system
During WWII when ammo was nearly impossible to obtain after the Japanese put McArthur on the run to Australia - Flipinos and Allied troops managed to fabricate their own home-brewed ammo for their firearms
The Japanese (& Sarah Brady) forgot to post:
“DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME”
Most handguns have barrels that can easily be removed and swapped for a new or used barrel with completely different lands and grooves
Many semi-auto pistol barrels (or AR or M series weapons) can be changed in mere seconds
A sabot-fitted projectile also makes tracing bullets and firearms a joke
An M16 top and barrel can be swapped without any tools to a .50 Short in a few seconds
In less than one hour I built a precision sub-caliber adapter that lets me safely and accurately fire .223 cartridges in one of my pre-1899 (legal antique per FFL) big .44-40 or .45 caliber Colt SA revolvers
Walther makes and sell a similiar adapter system - But mine is mucho better and more accurate
- But then I do not know much about all this “gun” and “ammo” stuff of which many on this FR thread speak -
An armed society is a polite society
Not much chance of getting shot at Fort Benning unless you raise your head in a live-fire infiltration exercise
"In production firearms, youll have dozens of machines if not more rifling barrels to meet the demand. Pull a dozen barrels off the same button rifle machine and you wont be able to positively separate samples fired from the various barrels by ballistic scrutiny."
Exactly, that's the whole point of high volume manufacturing - consistency of quality with reductions in cost.
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