Skip to comments.Where’s the ‘Probable Cause’?
Posted on 04/13/2012 7:05:10 PM PDT by doug from upland
The charges brought against George Zimmerman sure look like prosecutorial misconduct. The case as put forward by the prosecutor in the affidavit of probable cause is startlingly weak. As a former chief economist at the U.S. Sentencing Commission, I have read a number of such affidavits, and cannot recall one lacking so much relevant information. The prosecutor has most likely deliberately overcharged, hoping to intimidate Zimmerman into agreeing to a plea bargain. If this case goes to trial, Zimmerman will almost definitely be found not guilty on the charge of second-degree murder.
The prosecutor wasnt required to go to the grand jury for the indictment, but the fact that she didnt in such a high-profile case is troubling. Everyone knows how easy it is for a prosecutor to get a grand jury to indict, because only the prosecutor presents evidence. A grand-jury indictment would have provided political cover; that charges were brought without one means that the prosecutor was worried that a grand jury would not give her the indictment.
Advertisement The affidavit consists of six main points:
● Zimmerman was upset about all the break-ins in his neighborhood and expressed anger at how criminals always get away.
● According to a discussion with Trayvon Martins girlfriend, who said that she was talking to Martin before the attack, Zimmerman followed Martin. He did so despite the police operators saying we dont need you to do that.
● Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued, though no evidence is cited on this point.
● Trayvon Martins mother identified the voice crying for help on a 9-1-1 call as her sons.
● Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest, and this is confirmed by both Zimmermans statement and ballistics tests.
● Martin died from the gunshot wound.
Note some of the points that are missing. The prosecution doesnt claim Zimmerman had racial animus against blacks. There was no f***ing coons on the police call. Some extremely relevant information from the police report is completely excluded: There is no mention of the grass and wetness found on the back of Zimmermans shirt, the gashes on the back of his head, the bloody nose, or the other witnesses who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him, before the shot was fired. There is not even an attempt to say that the police report was in error; instead the affidavit just disregards it.
Even if everything in the affidavit is correct, it does not even begin to deal with the most crucial question: Who attacked whom? Even if it is true that Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued, there may have been no wrongdoing on Zimmermans part. Confronted does not mean provoked or assaulted. It could simply mean that Zimmerman followed Martin and asked him what he was doing in the neighborhood. Surely Zimmerman had the right to investigate a strange person in his neighborhood. The police operators advice that we dont need you to do that was merely suggestive, not an order to stop. Indeed, the police had no authority to give Zimmerman such an order.
Now take the charge of second degree murder. There is no way that the affidavit justifies such a charge. In Florida, second-degree murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual. But if Zimmerman was being beaten, there was no depraved mind regardless of human life, and the act imminently dangerous to another would be justified as self-defense.
Angela Corey, the special prosecutor who filed charges, claimed multiple times on Wednesday that the prosecutors are seekers of the truth. In our legal system, grand juries can sometimes provide a check on prosecutors who indict based on political pressure or the desire to seek the limelight. It is no surprise that Corey avoided the grand jury.
John R. Lott Jr. is a FoxNews.com contributor and a co-author of the just-released Debacle: Obamas War on Jobs and Growth and What We Can Do Now to Regain Our Future (John Wiley & Sons, March 2012).
The Stand Your Ground law doesn’t apply in this case at all.
Have a gander here:
a person is justified in the use of deadly force if (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony (Florida Statutes, Section 776.012). http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/FileStores/Web/Statutes/FS09/CH0776/Section_0776.012.HTM
The Stand Your Ground law only applies to home invasion or car jacking.
What we are witnessing is a massive disinformation campaign put on by Obama and Co. Its goal is to re-elect Obama, but also to attack gun rights in general.
The account was that he ran to get the name of the street- Hell, I’ve lived in my town all my life and cna’t tell you the name of streets rtight aroudn where I live and walk daily- This info about looking for the strewet name was from an early report on the case-
[[It sure doesn’t seem like he intended to return to his vehicle immediately]]
Now you’re telling us what he was thinking?
And even if he didn’t head back to hte car, (However, there is every indication he wasd headed back to the car as can be heard o nthe tape of the call- it was in the3 process of heading back to the car- apparently on a route you dissaprove of?) so the hell what? again- it is NOT agaisnt he law to follow someone- it is NOT agaisnt thwe law to even follow someoen armed- it is NOT even agaisnt hte law to confront someone-
[[For some reason or another he decided to go on the pathway which runs behind the houses ... in the opposite direction from where he was parked.]]
If we’re to beleive him- he was checkign on whetre Trayvon ducked down so he coudl give the polcie the direction traqyvonm went when he met with the police- IF you have evidence refutign georgee’s account, present it- all i’ve seen is conjecture from you
[[Zimmerman’s vehicle was on Twin Trees. The back entrance he thought Martin was heading for is on Retreat View Circle, a block away.]]
Since you seem to want to argue conjecture- then wouldn’t this fact, that the back entrance was a block away- indicate to you that george was infact confused abotu where he was and had to look for a sign to make sure he was in the spot he thought he was?
To give credence to this possible scenario, this is from the Q&A on the city of Sanford website:
What about media reenactments of the shooting incident? Any media reenactments of the shooting incident are purely speculation. To date the Sanford Police Department has not released any rendition of the events of the evening to anyone other than the Office of the State Attorney. The renditions we have seen are not consistent with the evidence in this case.
Is there any evidence to refute this? (Note to Cboldt. I hope you don't mind me pinging you to these threads. You seem to be the most knowledgeable around here, and I really do want to understand what's going on.)
Post #8 is correct.
Zimmerman spoke to a police dispatcher.
I don’t believe that dispatchers are sent to the local police academy. They are basically civilians!!!
Stand your Ground does not only apply to home invasion and car jacking. If you are walking down the street and confronted by armed thugs who are attempting to mug you, you have the right to defend yourself.
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the
officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the
club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they
go past the mailboxes, thats my truck...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I dont know, its a cut through so I dont know the address.
Yes, the prosecutor was totally disingenuous. With the uprising and threats, she did this to temporarily cool down the situation. If he is acquitted or their is a hung jury, she can say she did her job.
I believe a hung jury is infinitely more likely than an acquittal. There will be blacks on the jury and let’s tell it like it is. No black juror is going to vote to let Zimmerman off the hook. There may one, two or more whites or Hispanics who see this through a racial prism and they will not vote to convict. Hung jury is my call. Then federal civil rights charges.
GZ's father and brother both repeat George's story that Martin disappeared down the sidewalk (from C, towards E, and turning to his right then running towards F and D).
I had wondered if GZ did take the route in pink, and came upon Martin, around F.
"The renditions we have seen are not consistent with the evidence in this case."
The way I'm reading that is, the "media reenactments" are the ones not consistent, but GZ's version, is "consistent with the evidence in this case."
According to his dad, George walked to the next street (Retreat View Circle).
Most likely, he did. The fight happened by the tree over Cheryl Brown's left shoulder in your photo.
Of course, by the time the encounter occurred, Martin, whose girlfriend tells us was either walking fast or running, should have been most or all of the way to Brandy Green's townhouse, which would be off in the distance, over Cheryl Brown's right shoulder.
Instead, Martin, obviously royally pissed at being profiled, pops out of the darkness and confronts and assaults Zimmerman.
Supposedly, the day after, Zimmerman met with the police at the scene and, on video, led them through the sequence of events.
just carrying the gun and following when told not to gets you there.””
Zimmerman had a legal Florida certificate for CCW. As I understand, he had had such paperwork for quite some time.
Neighborhood Watch is just that-—watching—observing—approaching people who do not seem to fit in your area or whom you do not recognise.
Zimmerman had been doing Neighborhood Watch for a long time. He did so with his unpaid time & unpaid car expenses, as do all the other volunteers.
Records show that he had called 911 a number of times over the prior year, about once a week. There has been no information brought forward about how many days of the week Zimmerman was on patrol, trying to protect his neighborhood & his area.
Calling 911 an average of once a week tells me that he is NOT a ‘renegade’ or a ‘cowboy’ out of control, looking for a target. He called when he saw something suspicious.
I have lived where we had Neighborhood Watch. We did it on foot up and down a number of streets where there had been chronic break ins. Just the presence of people walking the area did alot. We were NOT armed, nor did we have cell phones then. We walked in pairs, but at that time—the late 70’s, the thugs were not quite so brazen.
Our watch menbers worked the days as well as the nights.
The activity and increase in break ins rose expotentially when bussing kids from poorer neighborhoods started. Those kids didn’t even enter the school grounds—they were being chauffered to their criminal activities!! After a number of them were caught—it became plain that they were being assisted in their activities by the bussing policies.
This isn’t racist——it is just plain FACT!!
This prosecutor needs to be fired asap! How dare she use tax payer money to try such a ridiculously political case!
The pink route falls under "what if" category. Like so, GZ say's "he's running", he hops out and takes the pink route to perform an end run around Martin. If fit's nicely with George's concern about Treyvon being so close he might hear this exchange...
Zimmerman: Um, I dont know. Its a cut-through so I dont know the address. [3:25]
911 dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah, I live here.
911 dispatcher: OK, whats your apartment number?
Zimmerman: Its a home. Its 1950 oh, crap, I dont want to give it out I dont know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]
I have no idea of the actual location of the shooting. Some place it at the T intersection of the walkways. There is no telling where Zimmerman was. He mentions he was in a cutout so wherever that is was one of his locations.
“Hey (mom, dad, friend (whoever)), I'm in the back on the walkway, which house is it. Can you meet me outside?”
If Zimmerman was up to no good he would heard, this think someone would be showing up and he would have retreated.
The most likely result would have been for him to relax and ask Martin who he was looking for.
C’mon, we teach our young kids tricks like this. If someone is tailing you in a car walk or run in the opposite direction, run places the car can't go, go to any door and ring the doorbell, start screaming, etc.
I understand it was not 911, rather a non-emergency police dispatch number.
The Missing 2:30 & DeeDee's Testimony by Dan Linehan on April 4, 2012
I haven't formed an opinion of the details of exactly how the two got within reach of each other, except that I think Martin is not scared, and he closes distance periodically. In the two encounter scenario, I have to think that Zimmerman may have willingly walked to within reach of Martin. That doesn't merit a punch in the face, and it also doesn't amount to Zimmerman "cornering" Martin, as DeeDee claims.
“They sure as heck ARE LEO and you ignore them at your own peril.”
No, they are not. Get over yourself.
The blacks don’t want justice, they just want to experience the joy they perceive whites get from a good old fashioned lynching.
Trying to keep it short.
I think seeing the time line like this helps to visualize the event.
The alleged criminal acts took place in the 2 minute 30 second window between Zimm’s hang up and the first 911 call.
Did Zimm go back to his truck, or not?
Did Martin follow Zimm, or vice versa?
Did Zimm have reasonable cause to believe that Martin had a gun in his waistband at 7:11:35?
If so, did Martin's behavior constitute an imminent threat to others, specifically to Zimm?
If you feel that George's father has his story correct, do you also agree that the rest of what he said is correct, namely:
1)Trayvon walked up to him and said, Do you have a f***ing problem.
2)George replying, No I don't have a problem and reached for his cell phone.
3)Trayvon then punched George in the nose, breaking it and knocked George to the concrete
4)Trayvon then got on top of George, beating him.
5)In the struggle the gun was revealed and Trayvon said to George something to the effect, You're gonna die now or you're gonna die tonight
I haven't seen that report before. Can you provide a link to that info?
Dispatcher: OKAY WE DONT NEED YOU TO DO THAT
That is what the dispatcher actually said.
(FWIW he called the non-emergency police line not 911)
Scroll way down the page until you come to a group of abstracted headlines.
I think it's titled “The Missing Minute” or something.
I think there's a link to a Reuter’s article.
This does seem to be the critical period.
Did Zimm go back to his truck?
Not clear to me, at all.
OK. I was just copying and pasting from a previous thread.
On Wednesday, the day after receiving the news, Martin went to the Sanford Police Department looking for answers - and his son's body. Police took him to a room and played some of the 911 recordings of neighbors who called to report a disturbance followed by a gunshot.
They did not play an earlier call to a police non-emergency line, during which Zimmerman reported a "suspicious guy" and ignored the operator's suggestion to quit following him. Investigator Chris Serino then took Martin to another room and told him Zimmerman's version of events.
Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said: "He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.
"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says I don't have a problem.'
"Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.
"At that point Zimmerman is able to unholster his weapon and fire a shot, striking Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon falls on his back and says, 'You got me.'" The Martin family has been telling their story as part of a campaign to have Zimmerman arrested. He himself has kept quiet. (more in the article)
The problem with that is it is third-hand info. It is supposedly what Det. Serino told Tracy Martin and Tracy told his family who then told it to the press and others. As it says above at the end Tracy Martin himself hasn't told the press that. Another problem is that the first confrontation at the truck would have had to have happened before Zimmerman called the police dispatcher which doesn't make much sense since Zimmerman calmly describes Trayvon first noticing him while on the line with the dispatcher and Zimmerman gets out of his truck during that call. It just doesn't fit at all that there was a confrontation at the truck before Zimmerman made that call.
Really good links though. Thanks again.
Yes, I know, you just copied it from post #136 from this thread. I was just clarifying the actual wording.
According to Martin's "cell-phone friend" (his girlfriend) the scuffle began a moment after Zimmerman said "What are you doing here?"
It makes perfect sense if Trayvon also took the pink route... not saying that's what happened, but it would account for the altercation happening at "F" as Z was returning to his truck. Z's actual statements (as opposed to the hearsay interviews given by his family) should all come out in the trial, if things get that far.
We'll find out about the last part, but I agree, this is thug law and a thug regime, and yes, they are acting exactly like Communists seeking to prove to the world that |Party > People| and also |Party > State > Individual|, so that there is no situation in which the interests of the Party will fail to prevail over the rights of the person.
It's a direct repudiation and refutation (they hope) of the entire history of U.S. law and the Constitution's guarantees of life and liberty.
I think that is, at base, why Obama has been engaging the Supreme Court directly and trying to bully them, from his SOTU lie-challenge last year right up to this moment.
The Regime's animating actors really, truly are reconstituted and "de-named" Communists in action.
He is working on dominating every facet of government and society.
His Wookie plants seeds about following social controls. (dietary restrictions, "food deserts") There is no force of law in what she says but her words are conditioning the populace to be obedient to "Federal guidelines." Of course guidelines have a way of morphing into regulations which do have the force of law.
Yes, he has.
Hey, nice picture of Trayvon when he was 12. LOL Nothing like some good propaganda to go with your post.
I question everything George’s father said. I wasn’t there and neither was he. He was trying to retell the story George told him ... and did so in a confusing manner.
Many people here look at this as right vs left.
A few look at it as right vs wrong. I’m one of those. I believe George was wrong when he turned ‘neighborhood watch’ into ‘neighborhood follow’.
Now that you’re back you can answer Aunt Polgara’s question in post #173.
Not me. It's about facts vs speculation.
If Tracy Martin’s info is third-hand, wouldn’t Robert Zimmerman’s info be at least second-hand?
The date on the photo is 2009 ... Trayvon would have been 15. I wonder if he was in the AFJROTC.
If Treyvon took that route too, then any notion of fear has to be dismissed. It would seem had he gone through there, he’d have turned right to go towards “home”, not turn left to circle back towards the ‘weird guy’ watching him. Also he was relatively new to the area. Zimmerman would be more likely to know he could cut through there and maybe get a fix on Martin again.
Alternatively, if George had done as he says and followed the maps direct route from C to E, then Treyvon jumping him on his way back to C, there’d be a lot of backpedaling and dancing away from Martin to get to F.
Yes. Have I ever said otherwise?
The date on the photo is 2009 ... Trayvon would have been 15.
Nice propaganda. Two year old photo of a much smaller kid.
I wonder if he was in the AFJROTC.
Is that your unsubstantiated speculation?
Just to be clear ... what are the “facts”?
I wondered if he was in the AFJROTC because my grandson is in the AFJROTC. He and the other cadets have similar coveralls.
Cboldt and PhatHead are my go to guys. I can’t keep up with the daily developments, and they have always seemed to know their stuff.
The things you rigorously ignore.
I see. Just random brain-farts you're having that are irrelevant to the subject and of no interest to anyone.
TigersEye is good too.
Words have meaning...
Thank you. I’m trying to keep up with this story but those other guys you mentioned are doing better than I am. You’re doing pretty good yourself as a matter of fact.
It is spelled prostitution.